Finally got my new engine: V7ii

[midnite]

Six months or so after my V7ii seized up solid at a touch over 11,000 miles, I finally got her back home with a new engine courtesy (kind of) of Piaggio. When I looked over the paperwork, I noticed that the dealer that replaced the engine noted that Castrol 10-50 4T was used.

Question for those who know better than I do: Is it okay to use 10-50 for the first 600 miles before the initial break in service? I have 10-60 on hand, but would hate to sacrifice 2 quarts of the good stuff if it’s not necessary. Looks like the flashpoint of the Castrol is 203C, vs. 230C for the Motul 10-60 I ordinarily use.

Cheers to any Guzzisti who care to offer advice!

[Ncdan]

Six months or so after my V7ii seized up solid at a touch over 11,000 miles, I finally got her back home with a new engine courtesy (kind of) of Piaggio. When I looked over the paperwork, I noticed that the dealer that replaced the engine noted that Castrol 10-50 4T was used.

Question for those who know better than I do: Is it okay to use 10-50 for the first 600 miles before the initial break in service? I have 10-60 on hand, but would hate to sacrifice 2 quarts of the good stuff if it’s not necessary. Looks like the flashpoint of the Castrol is 203C, vs. 230C for the Motul 10-60 I ordinarily use.

Cheers to any Guzzisti who care to offer advice!

Just not that much difference. I would run the 10-50 for a couple thousand miles then change it to whatever I was going to keep running in it.
Disclaimer: just what I’d do and not based on any scientific studies on motor oils👍

[Kiwi_Roy]

Just not that much difference. I would run the 10-50 for a couple thousand miles then change it to whatever I was going to keep running in it.
Disclaimer: just what I’d do and not based on any scientific studies on motor oils👍

+1, the difference is minuscule and you will be taking it easy, I would run it on the 10-50

[kingoffleece]

Why would they not use spec oil?

[midnite]

Why would they not use spec oil?

Mind boggling - to me, at least. This particular dealership was the one that Piaggio’s top rep recommended as the best one to get my engine replaced. At any rate, thanks for the feedback! Since it’s a brand new engine, I’ll run the 10-50 for the first 600 miles, then dump it and fill with 10-60.

[Ncdan]

Mind boggling - to me, at least. This particular dealership was the one that Piaggio’s top rep recommended as the best one to get my engine replaced. At any rate, thanks for the feedback! Since it’s a brand new engine, I’ll run the 10-50 for the first 600 miles, then dump it and fill with 10-60.

Sounds like a reasonable plan to me👍

[lucky phil]

Mind boggling - to me, at least. This particular dealership was the one that Piaggio’s top rep recommended as the best one to get my engine replaced. At any rate, thanks for the feedback! Since it’s a brand new engine, I’ll run the 10-50 for the first 600 miles, then dump it and fill with 10-60.

Yes a decent plan. Personally I run a break in oil for 500 klm then swap to the regular full synthetic stuff.

Ciao

[Zoom Zoom]

Why would they not use spec oil?

In reality, how do we know they didn't put in what Guzzi says comes from the factory? Maybe that is part of the reason they have you keep the rpm's down for the first 932 miles. (1500 K.)

Having said that, a dealer may or may not know what the factory wants for initial break in. They may have done exactly what they were told. I would think that unless you're in a very hot climate, or in a situation where you have to deal with stop and go traffic, it's likely not a big deal. You might consider just asking the dealer, or multiple dealers, but like I said they may not know for certain.

In any event, I would follow the owners manual for the guidelines for break in. Keep the rpm's down, vary the load, etc.

John Henry

[fotoguzzi]

Maybe I missed it but why did you need a new engine?

[Kev m]

Maybe I missed it but why did you need a new engine?

The V7 II bad crankshaft machining/thrust washer issue.

[bad Chad]

Wouldn't an new engine  come with oil in it?  Wouldn't the factory test start/run the motor just to make sure it works?

[midnite]

Wouldn't an new engine  come with oil in it?  Wouldn't the factory test start/run the motor just to make sure it works?

Perhaps, but they specifically noted on my paperwork that they had used Castrol 10-50. Glad to hear that it doesn’t seem to matter much... at least for the break in period. I’ll get the good stuff in there soon… 

[lucky phil]

Why would they not use spec oil?

Probably because they get a deal on their 10W-50 and want to minimise their costs by not stocking multiple grades of oils. Also the threshold CST for one brand of 50 weight could be borderline 60 weight and the 60 weight borderline 50 weight so in theory it could come down to splitting hairs. The 4T cst at 100 deg is 18.6-19.6 which is comfortably below the 60 weight lower threshold of 21.9 cst.
Couldnt find any spects for the Motul which has been the case for me for many years, others may have more luck. Unless you are using the bike in high ambient temps and or heavy traffic conditions I wouldn't be concerned with the 50 weight. Just leave it in until you do the first change and go to the 60 weight.

Ciao

[Roebling3]

Is it advanced metallurgy that calls for, what seems to me, very critical viscosity for break in and after?
Except for 2 race engines long ago I've not changed break-in habits. Never a problem, be they small engines or over the road 170 to 600 hp diesels.
9 years ago I sold my 'company' car. Timely changes of oil, A' freeze, filters & spark plugs, 2 timing belts, 4 stock aluminum rims. 
Total miles, a Grosjean number of 696969.6.  I drove it an extra 137 miles for an odometer picture. '03 Acura 3.2 Coupe 6 spd. R3~

[JJ]

The V7 II bad crankshaft machining/thrust washer issue.

QUOTE:  bad crankshaft machining/thrust washer issue.....

OK...that's just WRONG for a modern bike!!   Anyway, glad PIAGGIO took care of you...

[ozarquebus]

Non-detergent oil 30W used to be the recommended break in oil. After that, in this case, IMHO it hardly matters what oil you use as long as it it recommended weight range unless you are Speed Racer. If concerned I  would recommend the most expensive with the prettiest bottle. I like to alternate between synthetic and dino oil.

[bodine99]

I too would dump the oil in it now at 500-600 miles and run what you will use.

[lucky phil]

QUOTE:  bad crankshaft machining/thrust washer issue.....

OK...that's just WRONG for a modern bike!!   Anyway, glad PIAGGIO took care of you...

I can see you aren't that aware of the technical shortcomings of the modern mass produced engine/vehicle which is understandable if you're not directly involved in it or connected to people that are. This sort of significant mechanical issue is a common everyday fact across vehicle and even aviation manufacturers not some "one off" rare incidence. The average person just simple doesn't hear of it.
Thats why you never buy the first model of anything, just to reduce your exposure. It doesn't mean you'll have zero risk as a lot of the time it's a "manufacturing defect" as opposed to a "design issue" but at least with a mature design you can largely eliminate the latter.

Ciao

[lucky phil]

Is it advanced metallurgy that calls for, what seems to me, very critical viscosity for break in and after?
Except for 2 race engines long ago I've not changed break-in habits. Never a problem, be they small engines or over the road 170 to 600 hp diesels.
9 years ago I sold my 'company' car. Timely changes of oil, A' freeze, filters & spark plugs, 2 timing belts, 4 stock aluminum rims. 
Total miles, a Grosjean number of 696969.6.  I drove it an extra 137 miles for an odometer picture. '03 Acura 3.2 Coupe 6 spd. R3~

Nope. Firstly a Guzzi engine like many these days is driven for a short period (around 20min) on an electric motor driven rig as a general mechanical test before fitment to a chassis. It's then usually ridden on a rolling road (not always gently) and then tuned and balanced. Some are randomly taken for a run around the test track if the factory have one.
If you actually want to be kind to your new engine the "gold standard" is to drop the oil and filter as soon as you get it home and refill with the manufacturers recommended oil. This flushes out the majority of any machining and assembly remnants of which there are always some. Then drop that and the filter at around a thousand klms to flush out all the wear particles from the initial break in which will almost exclusively be from the rings and cylinders. Then go to your normal oil and filter change regime. Personally I use a break in oil these days and steer away from the full synth oil until after 500 klm on that.
The actual break riding is pretty well known about these days and is largely as we know, no heavy traffic, keep the rpm to a reasonable level, no lugging and no freeway droning. Pretty basic. Dont worry about the occasional trip to the redline, it wont do any harm but then again it wont be a benefit either. I've seen engine run flat out WOT on a rolling road straight off the assembly line as a matter of course. Just part of the assembly process. Then the owner drives it like a nanny for 2000klm sweating bullets he might exceed the break in rev limits. Funny. The main thing to break in are the rings and cylinders and that process is usually done pretty quickly (around 500klms) esp if you're using a break in oil and following the general rules.
Personally I dont see the need for a 60 weight oil in a Guzzi engine unless you are in a hot climate, heavy traffic or a lot of high speed engine operation in hot weather or at the track. I just think the manufacturer has to cover a lot of bases and conditions ambient or otherwise with an air cooled engine so opt on the very heavy oil viscosity side.
For the first time ever I'm going to use a 10W-60 in any engine including a Guzzi. I'll use it in my newly built Daytona engine because they tend to run hot, and have hot oil pressure on the lowish side with the std PRV spring in them and I can get an oil with elevated ZDDP in this grade for the cam followers. 
As an aside is the view that "modern engines" are built to far tighter tolerances than older engines and people imagine that the clearances must be tighter but that by and large isn't the case. Bearing and piston to cylinder clearances in comparable engines haven't changed in 50 years. The tolerance referred to is or what manufacturers would like you to believe is tighter is the tolerance on variability although this is questionable as well and has a fair degree of "marketing" in it. The machining on the major sealing surfaces on some 4 cylinder engines from a major manufacturer I've seen is a case in point as It's quite poor and variable. You can see the cost v time v machining centre output v quality equation here and the end result is very average oil sealing capability.   

Ciao               

[midnite]

Following up on the original post, I've not put about 40 miles on the bike after getting her home with the new engine.
I noticed some wonky acceleration right off the bat: bogging, and occasional strong surging above 4K rpm. Mostly bogging though.
I siphoned the old fuel out this morning (think I got most of it), and refilled with fresh 'premium' from Chevron, which here in California means 10% ethanol. My hope was that it would eventually smooth out as any gunk from the six-month-old (stabilized) fuel worked its way through.

Toward the end of my second short ride today, it seemed to be clearing up a bit, but still had muted acceleration/bogging consistently in the 0-4K range. Strangely, there were a few moments in which it seemed to 'clear out' and momentarily surge for several seconds. Now I'm wondering if I have a problem with the fuel pump/filter (filter was changed to the all metal variety about 6K miles ago), or god forbid, the TPS, which I understand is inextricably connected to the ECU. I've reset the TPS a few times as well.

Would mal-adjusted valves cause such symptoms?

Can't catch a break. Curious what ya'll think and recommend...

[malik]

Assigning a definitive cause to a set of symptoms just doesn't seem to work all that well for our Guzzis. It does seem however that the map on the single throttle body V7's ECU  (the MIU G3) is not all that well written, especially as compared to the earlier version 2TB with the 15RC. My 1TB has always idled and run roughly, and until beetle-mapped had a serious cold start problem. It runs better with the beetle map, but still not as smooth as the Classic, and not as economically either. From what I can gather, the V7 II's were particularly susceptible to rough running. A mate has updated to the map to the latest factory version and is happier with that. Worth checking if your mechanics actually installed the latest factory map after replacing the engine. Then there's Beetle to fall back on - www.griso.org.

[lucky phil]

Following up on the original post, I've not put about 40 miles on the bike after getting her home with the new engine.
I noticed some wonky acceleration right off the bat: bogging, and occasional strong surging above 4K rpm. Mostly bogging though.
I siphoned the old fuel out this morning (think I got most of it), and refilled with fresh 'premium' from Chevron, which here in California means 10% ethanol. My hope was that it would eventually smooth out as any gunk from the six-month-old (stabilized) fuel worked its way through.

Toward the end of my second short ride today, it seemed to be clearing up a bit, but still had muted acceleration/bogging consistently in the 0-4K range. Strangely, there were a few moments in which it seemed to 'clear out' and momentarily surge for several seconds. Now I'm wondering if I have a problem with the fuel pump/filter (filter was changed to the all metal variety about 6K miles ago), or god forbid, the TPS, which I understand is inextricably connected to the ECU. I've reset the TPS a few times as well.

Would mal-adjusted valves cause such symptoms?

Can't catch a break. Curious what ya'll think and recommend...

My advice to you is to go over every nut bolt clamp and connector the shop touched during the engine replacement and check them all for security and fitment with particular attention to manifold connections and any vacuum hoses.

Ciao 

[malik]

I would check all the basics, first.

Battery - charged, and terminals clean & tight, & the main earth clean & tight.
Spark - pull the plugs, they could now be fouled. Put the ohm meter on the caps & HT wires. Ensure the cap makes a solid connection to the plug.
Air filter - check that it's clean, and there's no oil in the bottom of the airbox (that's a sign of an over-filled engine).
Check for leaks in the manifold, and in the exhaust system.
Check the throttle cable connections & operation.
Pull the injectors, just to make sure the o-rings were not dislodged on re-assembly.
Re-set the auto learning function in the ECU, either through Guzzidiag, or by leaving the negative terminal off the battery form say, half an hour.
Let us know how it goes.

[midnite]

Thanks for the advice, All. I checked the plugs, caps, oil level, air filter and airbox, and every connection I could think of. I have oil weeping from a cylinder head, and it’s throwing several codes as well, so I contacted Piaggio, and arranged to take it back to the same dealer so they can straighten everything out. Will report back when it’s (finally) sorted. Luckily my Griso, with 23k+ miles, has been unflappable while the V7ii’s been out of service!

[lucky phil]

Thanks for the advice, All. I checked the plugs, caps, oil level, air filter and airbox, and every connection I could think of. I have oil weeping from a cylinder head, and it’s throwing several codes as well, so I contacted Piaggio, and arranged to take it back to the same dealer so they can straighten everything out. Will report back when it’s (finally) sorted. Luckily my Griso, with 23k+ miles, has been unflappable while the V7ii’s been out of service!

To the same dealer that released it to you running the way it is! No other choices?

Ciao

[redhawk47]

Following up on the original post, I've not put about 40 miles on the bike after getting her home with the new engine.
I noticed some wonky acceleration right off the bat: bogging, and occasional strong surging above 4K rpm. Mostly bogging though.
I siphoned the old fuel out this morning (think I got most of it), and refilled with fresh 'premium' from Chevron, which here in California means 10% ethanol. My hope was that it would eventually smooth out as any gunk from the six-month-old (stabilized) fuel worked its way through.

Toward the end of my second short ride today, it seemed to be clearing up a bit, but still had muted acceleration/bogging consistently in the 0-4K range. Strangely, there were a few moments in which it seemed to 'clear out' and momentarily surge for several seconds. Now I'm wondering if I have a problem with the fuel pump/filter (filter was changed to the all metal variety about 6K miles ago), or god forbid, the TPS, which I understand is inextricably connected to the ECU. I've reset the TPS a few times as well.

Would mal-adjusted valves cause such symptoms?

Can't catch a break. Curious what ya'll think and recommend...

I had similar symptoms after my engine replacement. The problem was caused by the latch on the plug of the signal wire to the fuel injector was not properly engaged. As a result the injector injected sometimes, and sometimes didn't.

[lucky phil]

I had similar symptoms after my engine replacement. The problem was caused by the latch on the plug of the signal wire to the fuel injector was not properly engaged. As a result the injector injected sometimes, and sometimes didn't.

So there's something to look at. I like those direct precise suggestions:)

Ciao

[voncrump]

I have been thinking about this.
What about the good old spark plug cap problem.
Has it been updated to the better caps and plugs.
If it is shorting to earth intermittently it could cause what seemed to be bogging and surging.
Briefly running on one cylinder will feel like that.
Cheers, voncrump.

[redhawk47]

I have been thinking about this.
What about the good old spark plug cap problem.
Has it been updated to the better caps and plugs.
If it is shorting to earth intermittently it could cause what seemed to be bogging and surging.
Briefly running on one cylinder will feel like that.
Cheers, voncrump.

Yes, it could be the plug caps shorting. If that is the case the catalytic converter on the side(s) that is missing will be turning colors (blue, brown). The cat is in the front part of the muffler. The fuel not burned in the cylinder is burning in the cat.

Plug cap is NGK XD05F. Plug is NGK CPR8EA-9 (threaded terminal).

If the fuel injector wire is loose there is no fuel to burn....

Dan

[midnite]

Thanks again for all of the suggestions/input. I'm familiar with the misfiring sparkplug/cap problem, but never had a problem with the originals in the slightly-over 11k miles that my first engine lasted, so never got around to replacing with the NKG XD05F, which I bought shortly after purchasing the bike. Plug caps seem to be fully seated, and I'm not getting any discoloration where the cat is on the mufflers, so I assume that's not the problem. Injectors seem to be properly connected, at least as far as I can tell (I haven't lifted the tank off completely to check the rest of the plumbing/wiring... need to do this). I'm a bit spooked by the appearance of oil weeping from the left cylinder head/block articulation (top) as well, though know that heads need to be retorqued after the first 600 miles.

I'm not keen on taking the bike back to the dealer for a variety of reasons (not the least of which, it's a 1.5 hour drive away!), so will keep poking around... thanks for the insight and nudges to keep digging!