1948 Airone - restoration

[keener]

    thank you for sharing your great builds ....
Keener

[Dave Swanson]

This bike can thank it's lucky stars!   

[Canuck750]

Thanks for the encouragement Keener and Dave, it’s going to be a long wait on parts I think. Valenti has been taking around 3-4 months to get parts here and I just put my order in last week for engine and various other bits. I am looking forward a new chrome shop in western Canada as my go to guy has been dropping off in quality, the chrome on my Ducati 860 GT headers is blistering off after one summer. On the positive side I found a contact for a local hand pinstripe artist who can line the tank and fenders. I can keep busy on small parts like the dynamo, magneto and carb while I wait for parts

Keep healthy

Cheers

Jim

[Canuck750]

The swing arm lower joint that contains the link to the spring box has a pair of sheet metal caps on each side, one of mine had a hole rusted through and attempts to weld it up with brass rod just resulted in what was left of the sheet metal disintegrating. I don't think these pieces are reproduced, at least I have not found a source so I turned up a pair from 2" diameter aluminum rod. A couple of measurements,



a big pile of swarf



and two suitable facsimiles of the original sheet metal caps



This is the extent of my capabilities on a lathe, I can make round things a smaller diameter, cut off round things, but after that I am steering blind, if there was a community college course on running a manual lathe I would sign up tomorrow.



but they will do the job, plenty of clearance to moving parts, the aluminum was cut down to appx. .7mm wall thickness, once painted black most people will never know they are not stock

[Canuck750]

Spent a couple hours this morning sanding the rust pitting out of the pressed steel swing arm





Under the red paint and rust, er…  'patina' was a layer of grey filler primer, it was really well bonded and very thick (The Moto Guzzi service manual refers to the finish as nitro-cellulose oven baked to 90 ~ 100C for three hours), once stripped off, the side faces of the pressing were full of shallow crease marks formed by the press. I don't want to use a filler so again I went at the steel with a random orbital sander. This is a nice heavy pressing and relatively mild steel which responds well to flat sanding. I ended up using 15 sheets of 80 grit and 13 of 240 grit to get the exposed faces smooth.

A couple hours later and it was done. Before it goes off to the powder coater it will be gone over with a fine sandblast to get all the paint off the nooks and out of the crannies.

Reminds me of being a kid and being put to work in the shop by my autobody mechanic father, sanding and sanding his cars for paint, I think I prepped at least twenty cars, that taught me patience and pride in working with ones hands.





On to the front frame section and front forks next.

[Don G]

A caustic soda hot tank would make short work of the paint on those forks, just have to power wash well after the bath.  DonG

[Canuck750]

A caustic soda hot tank would make short work of the paint on those forks, just have to power wash well after the bath.  DonG

Hi Don, where do you get caustic soda? My ultrasonic cleaner tank heats to 50C and I can do half the forks at a time

[Don G]

Engine rebuilding shops usually used hot tanks, radiator repair shops also use this technology, perhaps its changed but some one in your town should still have a hot tank going. I have a 50LB bag of caustic soda beads if you want to mix up your own bath, used to be able to buy caustic from industrial suppliers like Acklands etc. The best caustic was called Oakite, it would even remove surface rust, another was Red Hot Mamma, try an industrial cleaning supply joint. The only problem with caustic is you should not use it on Aluminium, pot metal, or on anything you cant rinse off, like inside of frame tubes, but if the object has open surfaces caustic works well and fast.  DonG

[Canuck750]

Engine rebuilding shops usually used hot tanks, radiator repair shops also use this technology, perhaps its changed but some one in your town should still have a hot tank going. I have a 50LB bag of caustic soda beads if you want to mix up your own bath, used to be able to buy caustic from industrial suppliers like Acklands etc. The best caustic was called Oakite, it would even remove surface rust, another was Red Hot Mamma, try an industrial cleaning supply joint. The only problem with caustic is you should not use it on Aluminium, pot metal, or on anything you cant rinse off, like inside of frame tubes, but if the object has open surfaces caustic works well and fast.  DonG

Thanks Don,
I got my rain check floor model sand blast cabinet from Princess Auto this morning, (half price for $200.00!) and spent the afternoon assembling it. My vapour blast cabinet is a great tool but it does not take paint off, only oxide so I opted to add a sand blast cabinet for working on steel pieces. I am going to look for some caustic coda tomorrow.

[SED]

Caustic soda is another name for lye - find it with the plumbing in the hardware store.

I made a hot tank from the bottom of an old electric water heater - see the GTV thread.

[Canuck750]

Caustic soda is another name for lye - find it with the plumbing in the hardware store.

I made a hot tank from the bottom of an old electric water heater - see the GTV thread.

I will take a look at your post, thanks for the tip!

Jim

[SED]

https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=91496.msg1645675#msg1645675

A little slim on the details.  Here's a test on the stove, then cutting a 50 gal 240v water heater just below the upper element.  If doing it again, I'd have left the outer jacket on.  I just wired the remaining element straight to 120v.

         


https://www.homedepot.com/p/Instant-Power-Crystal-Lye-Drain-Cleaner-1650/204374017?source=shoppingads&locale=en-US&mtc=Shopping-B-F_D26P-G-D26P-26_7_PLUMBING_REPAIR_And_REPLAC-NA-NA-Feed-PLA-NA-NA-DrainChemicals&cm_mmc=Shopping-B-F_D26P-G-D26P-26_7_PLUMBING_REPAIR_And_REPLAC-NA-NA-Feed-PLA-NA-NA-DrainChemicals-71700000053283188-58700005117670205-92700047360239711&gclid=CjwKCAiAoOz-BRBdEiwAyuvA69jcKd5iydCrzuKN-oHr_gsQJer16_OJiu42wwvO0D7hkG1I3HP6ZxoCRV4QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

[Canuck750]

Is it ok to use the hot tank indoors, any concern with fumes? I have read that Caustic soda can be very dangerous to the eyes.

[Don G]

Caustic soda is nasty shite! do not get it on your person, other than that its fairly safe....   DonG

[SED]

Is it ok to use the hot tank indoors, any concern with fumes? I have read that Caustic soda can be very dangerous to the eyes.

I wouldn't use it indoors.  It steams and vapors would be basic (caustic).  The lye comes in pellets and can be very concentrated until adequately diluted.  Concentrated lye turns your cell membranes to soap so it feels slippery if you get any on your fingers - even after rinsing for a long time. And nobody wants a soapy eyeball.  Use gloves and safety glasses.   

1 kilo of lye pellets (NaOH) in 100 liters of water is reasonably dilute (about 0.25 Molar solution) so not super dangerous once dissolved.  The effectiveness will decay as it converts grease to soap so you will need to add more lye as you go.

Higher temperatures and concentrations are more effective.  This one would only get to about 55-60C.  It stripped off almost all the old paint easily and most of the grease.  Most of the remainder washed off with a garden hose and scrub brush.

Don't use it on aluminum - it rots away!  It is for steel and iron, but brass and bronze can survive for a short time.

While the lye can give you chemical burns it doesn't have toxic vapors and isn't carcinogenic or neurotoxic.


      

[Canuck750]

I wouldn't use it indoors.  It steams and vapors would be basic (caustic).  The lye comes in pellets and can be very concentrated until adequately diluted.  Concentrated lye turns your cell membranes to soap so it feels slippery if you get any on your fingers - even after rinsing for a long time. And nobody wants a soapy eyeball.  Use gloves and safety glasses.   

1 kilo of lye pellets (NaOH) in 100 liters of water is reasonably dilute (about 0.25 Molar solution) so not super dangerous once dissolved.  The effectiveness will decay as it converts grease to soap so you will need to add more lye as you go.

Higher temperatures and concentrations are more effective.  This one would only get to about 55-60C.  It stripped off almost all the old paint easily and most of the grease.  Most of the remainder washed off with a garden hose and scrub brush.

Don't use it on aluminum - it rots away!  It is for steel and iron, but brass and bronze can survive for a short time.

While the lye can give you chemical burns it doesn't have toxic vapors and isn't carcinogenic or neurotoxic.


      


Great information Shawn, thank you! I don't want to set up a hot tank indoors and its winter now so I don't see building one until the spring but I will eventually make one.

I got a mid size floor model sand blast cabinet from our Canadian equivalent to Harbor Freight; Princess Auto for a half price sale of $200.00. I forgot how much I hate sandblasting and sandblast cabinets, have to keep the shop vac hooked up to the cabinet exhaust and running, combined with the compressor, even with hearing protection its loud and dust still drift around, I got about 3/4 of the bike parts sandblasted and then finished in the vapor blast cabinet. I will be glad when all the paint / rust is stripped and the parts sanded smooth.

[Canuck750]

I have stripped the paint and prepared all the frame components, down to the fenders, tool boxes and oil tank.

The fenders have suffered from a lot of surface rust,



What lies beneath (sounds like a horror movie title), after a coat of spray on aircraft paint stripper and a hand scraper to remove the thick paint layers



After a sand blast there are plenty of deep rust pits under that mess to fill and paint

I bought a Beugler Pinstripe roller to try my hand at painted pin stripes on the fenders, tank, tool boxes and oil tank, plenty of videos on You Tube demonstrating the kit

[Canuck750]

I stripped the last of the painted parts today, tool boxes and oil tank, I used an automotive paint stripper, they sure don't make a good paint stripper like they used to, progress huh? After stripping in to the sand blast cabinet for a couple minutes to get any revenant of paint and loose rust off.



The fenders and tool boxes are made from several pieces of formed sheet metal and rust collects in the folded metal seams and between the inside of the fenders and the fender support brackets. 'Evaporust' in the ultrasonic tank heated to 45C does wonders in getting the hidden rust to flow out of the ends of the seams and from under the riveted brackets. You can see the particles of rust slowly flowing out of their hiding places and collecting in a puddle of sludge in low spots. It takes about an hour to clean a section then shift the fender a bit more to immerse it and continue.



After the Evaporust has done its thing the bare pock marked metal is exposed, ready for refinishing.



Glad to have this messy and time consuming part of the project behind me!

[SED]

Wow, that sonicator really does the job!  Who makes yours and what size is it?  I've always used phosphoric acid, but might have to try evaporust.

From the looks of it Canadian paint stripper still works.  Methylene chloride (carcinogenic neurotoxin responsible for work related fatalities) has been removed from US paint strippers and all they do now is soften the surface.  The absolute failure of the stripper is why I made the hot tank and it is much cleaner and easier. 

BTW - pressure check your oil tank for leaks.  If it is like the GTV tank, some of it is soldered and the solder joints may fail.  Even my new oil tank had a weep where the oil supply fitting was soldered in.

[Canuck750]

Wow, that sonicator really does the job!  Who makes yours and what size is it?  I've always used phosphoric acid, but might have to try evaporust.

From the looks of it Canadian paint stripper still works.  Methylene chloride (carcinogenic neurotoxin responsible for work related fatalities) has been removed from US paint strippers and all they do now is soften the surface.  The absolute failure of the stripper is why I made the hot tank and it is much cleaner and easier. 

BTW - pressure check your oil tank for leaks.  If it is like the GTV tank, some of it is soldered and the solder joints may fail.  Even my new oil tank had a weep where the oil supply fitting was soldered in.

I bought this tank off EBay, shipped out of Richmond BC, suburb of Vancouver, it cost about $500 CDN and it’s 30 litre capacity. It has a 90 minute max timer and a separate heat control that heats to 50C. I can’t get phosphoric acid here anymore, it was such a great rust remover. Evaporust works well but it’s slow, the ultrasonic tank with the heat turned up significantly speeds up the rust removal. I thought 30 litres would be large enough for anything I needed but once I see what it can do it could always be larger! 

One or two Dishwasher soap packets dropped into the ultrasonic cleaner work great for grease removal and the grease mops up off the top of the tank solution with a piece of paper towel.

I noticed the solder joints on the oil tank, good advice to pressure test it, will do that before I get it painted.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

I can’t get phosphoric acid here anymore, it was such a great rust remover.

Can you buy "milkstone remover" at a farm supply store? The main ingredient is phosphoric acid.

[Canuck750]

Can you buy "milkstone remover" at a farm supply store? The main ingredient is phosphoric acid.

Thanks for the tip, I will look into that.

I was working on the rear fender today, the rivets that attach the forward bracket (near the swing arm) were rotted around the heads, I ground them off to replace them with some new reverts I have and once off and bracket removed the sheet metal around the rivets was paper thin and tiny holes all over the place, Damn I hate rust. I made up a new backing plate from steel sheet and tried my luck at welding it in place from the rear. Its pretty hard to weld tin foil! Hours spent with the smart MIG using argon/CO2 shield gas and I still managed to keep burning through the super thin steel where rust had eaten away at the steel. So frustrating, there just isn't any good steel left in this area. I could make up a whole new fender section and splice it in but I think I am going to try and find a better one. The Astorino rear fender is unique to the couple years that the rear shock absorber Airone was produced but there is one on Ebay Italy from a German seller, going to try and work a deal on it.

[Canuck750]

When I first got my 1949 Airone I asked Valenti to send me the engine parts I should replace as a rule, he sent me engine case bearings, seals and gaskets, Magneto coil, points and bearings and Dynamo bearings and solid state reg/rec.

Stripped and cleaned, gave the magnet a fresh coat of paint. While holding the armature and rotating the output shaft it gave me a real good jolt, the bike ran before I stripped it down so I think these replacements may not have been required right away but may as well overhaul it.



will replace the bearings and coil



stripped the dynamo, will replace the bearings



There were on wiring instructions for the solid state reg/rec. five wires, 51, 61, C, SP and negative



51 and 61 go to the terminals on the cap, C, SP and negative are uncertain, Am I correct to assume that C and SP are the two wires from the filed coil that is anchored to the zinc plated tube body? and if so which is C and which is SP?

Negative I am guessing is the ground lug on the body of the brush plate = reg/rec plate.









can anyone confirm how to connect this solid state reg/rec unit?

[SED]

Wow - your cleaning process works great!

SP goes to the armature, it is not a field wire.

Campo = field.  One of the field wires (C-) is grounded to the dynamo body next to the grounded brush.  The other field wire goes to the regulator, this is C+.  Connect it to C+ (C) on the solid state reg.  I've seen a reference that the field wires are black and dark brown to indicate positive and negative (don't know which but could maybe find the reference for you), but an electrical engineer said polarity shouldn't matter and it's worked on the 2 I've done. 

SP - spazzola = brush. The SP wire attaches to the insulated brush.  Check to make sure the U-shaped bridge that crosses over the bearing housing (insulated brush and SP wires screw to it) is not grounded - it's just trapped under the cover screw.

For the picture below:  Red circle is positive field, connect C to it.  Black circle is negative field.   Black arrow is grounded brush.  Red arrow is insulated U-shaped bridge.  If insulated brush is connected to other side, then SP can be connected here.




The field, armature and reg all share a ground through the body of the dynamo.  Make sure you have good battery connections - if you lose the ground the dynamo over charges blows the bulbs and cooks the solid state reg and it smells like burnt fish for a week!   

[Canuck750]

Thanks so much Shawn! Great explanation and very helpful!

I put the whole dynamo in the ultrasonic cleaner in Evaporust for 30 minutes to free the rusted case bolts, Vapor blaster cleaned up the rest in a couple minutes. Any tips for pulling those tiny bearings off the dynamo and magneto? I don’t think I have a bearing puller that small, maybe I can make up a tiny puller.

Valenti sent me the new rotating coil for the magneto, is there a condenser hiding inside there?

Thanks again!

Jim

[SED]

Your mag parts look beautiful!  Make sure you replace the capacitor.  Keep track of the polarity of the wires and housing as you take it apart.

This is a late BL with a canned capacitor (earlier versions were just a stack of conductors and insulators in the same housing).  Note that one end is insulated and the other not.  The close distance between the insulated terminals and the brass end cap is the safety gap.  You want to maintain that gap - too little and it will limit the high voltage output, too much and it can overload your windings if the plug lead is not grounded.  If you have the older style I can post pictures on how to maintain the safety gap.




Here are the replacement caps soldered together and encapsulated in epoxy.  I didn't set the epoxy into the endcap because they may need to be removed in the future.  Once the epoxy puck was made I glued that in with some rtv so it wouldn't wiggle and work the capacitor leads.

               




Here is the link and info on the recommended capacitors:

http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/455839/3
Recommendation for a Replacement Capacitor
Since not everyone may want to read the details of the tests described below, I'll go straight to the conclusion. The capacitors I recommend as replacements for use in Lucas, BTH, and other rotating armature magnetos are a pair Vishay 0.082 uF "AC and Pulse Double Metallized Polypropylene Film Capacitors," manufacturer's number BFC238320823. These capacitors have pulsed current and voltage ratings of 1400 V/us and 630 VDC with a maximum operating temperature of 105 oC. These specifications comfortably exceed those needed to survive for years in the hostile electrical environment of a magneto. They are available from Digi-Key for $1.35 each ($2.70 for the pair required to be soldered in parallel) under part number BC1883-ND.

[Canuck750]

Thanks again!  I don’t think Valenti sent condensers but I will check again in my parts box of new bits. I will look for the condensers online, certainly cheap enough! 

[SED]

Get the condensers recommended by magnetoman Charles Falco in the link above.  He's U of Ariz physicist, old motorbike enthusiast (Goldstars etc.) and magneto expert.  Apparently not all capacitors can survive the voltage spikes, heat and forces in a rotating coil magneto.

I used my smallest puller to pull inner race off the shaft.  Had to modify the pusher.  Outer races I may have had to use an inside puller from harbor freight - about $60 USD.  Don't remember for sure.  Keep track of the packing behind the race for end play.

[Canuck750]

Looks like the new armature Valent sent is complete with the condensers, just had to swap the alignment pins over from the old unit



I did manage to get my smallest bearing puller on to the old bearings to pull them off the magneto and dynamo



The blind bearing races came out of the castings after bringing them up to 300F in the oven then a quick rap on the bench and out they fell with the packings



Cleaned out the bearing recess, reheated the castings and put the races in the fridge, then they along with the cleaned packing the races fell into place

After reassembling the magneto there was too much slop in the armature, pulled it apart and added a thicker shim, much better



the steel parts, screws, points cap and points sprung retainer were blasted, polished and coated with satin powder



The satin powder looks more like aged steel because I heat the oven a bit warmer than normal, up to 400F and cure the powder for an extra 5 minutes, I like the aged look of the clear steel as opposed to a normal clear finish



Dynamo came together easy enough after Shawn explained the wiring, I just opted to spray paint the body silver rather than send it out for zinc plating, clear powder coated the fasteners, bearings went in as per the magneto





Dynamo is done, hope it all works



the horn will go back together next

[Turin]

  WOW.

 BTW, how are you addressing the pitting? I ask because i have a set of Ambo Headlight ears that I cleaned with Evaporust, and they look similar to that fender.