Author Topic: 2003 EV no start, Cam sensor?  (Read 3536 times)

Offline jrt

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Re: 2003 EV no start, Cam sensor? Not so Resolved
« Reply #30 on: October 04, 2021, 06:34:21 PM »
Now you're starting to think like a sparky
Aw, that's nice.  Made my day. 

The light on the 52 relay must be fully lit also, I have seen mine flickering at ~50% when the stand switch was faulty.
Fully lit when running. 

I'm going to wait until a new sensor arrives from Latvia- probably late this month.  I'll update then.
L-720
1973 Eldorado
2003 Yardbird (1100 hydro)
2020 R1250RS

Offline SmithSwede

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Re: 2003 EV no start, Cam sensor?
« Reply #31 on: October 04, 2021, 06:47:46 PM »
FYI, I got my sensor cheap from Elbonia. Like $20.  It was a little muddy, but has worked fine now for 50,000 miles.

I’m still betting grotty connectors or simply a bad sensor.   Yes, the air gap is important, but if it worked before, I don’t see how that can be the issue since the gap can’t change.  Unless you did something immediately before the failure like add an O ring.

I’m assuming you tried tightening the screws that hold the sensor in place.
Accentuate the positive;
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Offline jrt

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Re: 2003 EV no start, Cam sensor?
« Reply #32 on: October 04, 2021, 09:58:21 PM »
FYI, I got my sensor cheap from Elbonia. Like $20.  It was a little muddy, but has worked fine now for 50,000 miles.

I’m still betting grotty connectors or simply a bad sensor.   Yes, the air gap is important, but if it worked before, I don’t see how that can be the issue since the gap can’t change.  Unless you did something immediately before the failure like add an O ring.

I’m assuming you tried tightening the screws that hold the sensor in place.
I didn't touch the sensor, the screws...nothing before this happened.  I can see clear, shiny metal lines on the connectors.  I'm guessing it is the sensor also, but I won't know for sure until I replace it.  Right now, my theories are:  oil incursion has somehow damaged the electronics, the wires are too close to something else (coils) so I'm getting interference or there is a mystery wire broken somewhere.  Here's hoping my Latvian replacement comes in soon. 
L-720
1973 Eldorado
2003 Yardbird (1100 hydro)
2020 R1250RS

Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: 2003 EV no start, Cam sensor?
« Reply #33 on: October 05, 2021, 05:32:25 AM »
I didn't touch the sensor, the screws...nothing before this happened.  I can see clear, shiny metal lines on the connectors.  I'm guessing it is the sensor also, but I won't know for sure until I replace it.  Right now, my theories are:  oil incursion has somehow damaged the electronics, the wires are too close to something else (coils) so I'm getting interference or there is a mystery wire broken somewhere.  Here's hoping my Latvian replacement comes in soon.
There's no electronics inside the sensor, its just a coil of fine wire wound over a magnet, my guess would be the wire has parted where it joins to the leads, you could try measuring the resistance while warming it up with a heat gun or hair dryer an open circuit sensor will never run.
You could connect an LED in series and power it from a 6 Volt source while you warm it, a light is a lot more visual than a digital meter.
Another test is to measure the resistance then switch the meter leads around, sometimes if there's any corrosion present it will measure a different resistance as if there was a small battery in circuit (the corrosion forms a small cell)
I have never tried to measure the signal coming from the sensor but I would expect it to increase in amplitude as the distance to the phonic wheel is decreased so run it at a reduced gap.
Did we ever establish which model ECU we are running the old P8 with the large Pizza box or smaller 15M?
For a little light entertainment while waiting on your new sensor visit the MyECU site by Cliff Jefferies https://www.myecu.biz/MyECU/index.htm
« Last Edit: October 05, 2021, 05:37:50 AM by Kiwi_Roy »
72 Eldorado
17 V7iii Special
76 Convert
Half a V9 Roamer

Moto Guzzi - making electricians out of riders since March 15 1921

Wildguzzi.com

Re: 2003 EV no start, Cam sensor?
« Reply #33 on: October 05, 2021, 05:32:25 AM »

Offline jrt

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Re: 2003 EV no start, Cam sensor?
« Reply #34 on: October 05, 2021, 10:51:08 AM »
I'll give the heat gun a try...  interesting point about hooking the leads up reverse. 


The ECU is a 15M.  I remember when Cliff Jeffries started his myECU project- I think it was for an 1100 sport?  The good folks at V11LeMans got very interested in it (I had a V11 sport at the time).  That's above my pay grade- I've made tube (valve) amplifiers and some stereo gear, but that's about it.
Cheers,
L-720
1973 Eldorado
2003 Yardbird (1100 hydro)
2020 R1250RS

Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: 2003 EV no start, Cam sensor?
« Reply #35 on: October 06, 2021, 07:50:45 AM »
I'll give the heat gun a try...  interesting point about hooking the leads up reverse. 


The ECU is a 15M.  I remember when Cliff Jeffries started his myECU project- I think it was for an 1100 sport?  The good folks at V11LeMans got very interested in it (I had a V11 sport at the time).  That's above my pay grade- I've made tube (valve) amplifiers and some stereo gear, but that's about it.
Cheers,
Yes, I put one of Cliff's kits together for my VII Sport, I got one of the gurus to send me a copy of his map, worked very well.
His site used to have a very good description of how the ECU worked broken down into the various systems.
72 Eldorado
17 V7iii Special
76 Convert
Half a V9 Roamer

Moto Guzzi - making electricians out of riders since March 15 1921

Offline SmithSwede

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Re: 2003 EV no start, Cam sensor?
« Reply #36 on: October 06, 2021, 08:52:24 AM »
I can confirm Roy is correct.  The sensor is just a metal spike with a thin wire wrapped around it, all covered in plastic.   I took a Dremel to one because I wanted to know for sure what the thing was. 

There are only 2 active wires—one going into the coil and one going out.  So this is a 2 wire sensor, not a 3 wire sensor. 

But it does have a 3rd wire.  The third wire just attaches to a foil sheath that surrounds the two wires. I’m sure to cut down on RF interference, and ground on the bike. 
Accentuate the positive;
Eliminate the negative;
Latch on to the affirmative;
Don't mess with Mister In-Between.

Offline jrt

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Re: 2003 EV no start, Cam sensor?
« Reply #37 on: October 06, 2021, 04:18:01 PM »
The third wire just attaches to a foil sheath that surrounds the two wires. I’m sure to cut down on RF interference, and ground on the bike.

That's good to know because (if I recall correctly) there was not any conduction between the S pin and the (-) pin. 
L-720
1973 Eldorado
2003 Yardbird (1100 hydro)
2020 R1250RS

Offline jrt

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Re: 2003 EV no start, Cam sensor?
« Reply #38 on: October 25, 2021, 11:49:08 AM »
OK, now I know a lot more about variable reluctance sensors than I ever thought I would know.  But thanks to the good folks here, I also learned a lot about electronic engine management.  I still have a ways to go... :)
So- where I'm at on my bike is that I ordered a new crankshaft position sensor (from Latvia!) and installed it.  Bike fired up on the first turnover and seems to be running just fine.  I had it out for about 40 miles, got it good and hot (warmed up).  It never skipped a beat.
 
I made this depth tool out of (black) acetal rod and an aluminum rod.  The aluminum fits in the plastic with a tight friction fit and the plastic rod sits in/on the hole in the block.  Took me longer to type those sentences than to measure the depth.  If anyone wants to use it, send me a note-I'm happy to loan it out.


I rigged up my oscilloscope to try and measure the output from the old sensor, but I couldn't get a reading from it at all.  I spun a driveshaft in my lathe (hey, it has teeth!), applied a voltage to the sensor and tried to get a signal from the "S" wire.  Actually, I tried every combination- nothing.  I managed to pick up 60 Hz from the house electricity...  I was too hasty and installed the new CPS without trying it, but I ordered a second one as a backup, so I'll test it when it gets in.
Here's the bike-
 

L-720
1973 Eldorado
2003 Yardbird (1100 hydro)
2020 R1250RS

Offline SmithSwede

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Re: 2003 EV no start, Cam sensor?
« Reply #39 on: October 25, 2021, 01:06:00 PM »
I’m a shyster, not a sparky, so take everything I say with a grain of salt.  I do not think this sensor is a genuine 3 wire or Hall effect sensor.   (That is confusing because it really does have three wires not two, but the third wire is actually a foil sheath that grounds and minimizes RF interference).

In other words, this is not a sensor that takes a 12v current through 2 of the wires, and then outputs a signal on the third wire.  Instead, it is simply a permanent magnet with a wire coil wrapped around it.   It does not receive 12 v from the vehicle.  It instead outputs some voltage that is induced into the coil as a metal piece passes into, and then out of, the magnetic field created by the permanent magnet.   

So to test your old one, I think you would simply hook a scope to the two wires of the coil, pass metal close to the sensor, and see if you get an output voltage.  I don’t think you would apply current to the two wires—where would the signal go since the “third” wire is grounded?

Of course, you could easily test my assertion by seeing if there is a current being supplied to the sensor at the connector, or if the connector is simply collecting a (weak) current by inductance.  If the engine works with the new sensor, and is not receiving any input voltage from the connector, it really is just a 2 wire sensor (with 3 wires) as opposed to a genuine Hall effect or 3 wire sensor. 

I never checked mine.  Once it started to work again, I stopped messing with it. 

If I were you, I would try swapping the original sensor back onto the bike.  If the engine never works with the old sensor, and always works with the new sensor, you can be confident that the sensor was the problem (as opposed to flaky wiring, etc.).  If the bike now works even with the old sensor, then it never was the sensor, but was instead a bad connector, something with air gap, or another issue. 

« Last Edit: October 25, 2021, 01:18:14 PM by SmithSwede »
Accentuate the positive;
Eliminate the negative;
Latch on to the affirmative;
Don't mess with Mister In-Between.

Offline SmithSwede

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Re: 2003 EV no start, Cam sensor?
« Reply #40 on: October 25, 2021, 01:20:19 PM »
I don’t really trust these sensors anymore.  And if one fails, you aren’t moving.  I highly recommend keeping a known good sensor stashed under your seat somewhere.   They are small, light, cheap, but mission critical.   
Accentuate the positive;
Eliminate the negative;
Latch on to the affirmative;
Don't mess with Mister In-Between.

Offline doslemans

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Re: 2003 EV no start, Cam sensor?
« Reply #41 on: October 25, 2021, 01:43:53 PM »
Have a buddy looking for source of that sensor.  Please post link/info of where you purchased it.
Thanks

Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: 2003 EV no start, Cam sensor?
« Reply #42 on: October 25, 2021, 07:00:27 PM »
I don’t really trust these sensors anymore.  And if one fails, you aren’t moving.  I highly recommend keeping a known good sensor stashed under your seat somewhere.   They are small, light, cheap, but mission critical.
I tend to agree with this, when I had a VII Sport I carried a spare, I don't have one for my V7 however I can be certain that the dealer doesn't have one either and it will be several weeks away.
Please include a link to the ones you have found.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2021, 11:06:11 PM by Kiwi_Roy »
72 Eldorado
17 V7iii Special
76 Convert
Half a V9 Roamer

Moto Guzzi - making electricians out of riders since March 15 1921

Offline Tkelly

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Re: 2003 EV no start, Cam sensor?
« Reply #43 on: October 25, 2021, 09:14:26 PM »
If I ever have one of those bikes again the first thing I buy will be a spare sensor,had them fail on 2 different bikes,no advance warning,cheap insurance.

Offline jrt

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Re: 2003 EV no start, Cam sensor?
« Reply #44 on: October 25, 2021, 09:41:50 PM »
This is the one I bought:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00D76FWF2/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
I think these folks sell on ebay as well.  They are in Latvia.
I'm sure it can found cheaper, but for 30 bucks...I already wasted that much in time.  I got this one, it looks ok...so I bought a spare.  It is slightly longer than the one that came out of the bike, so measure!!

SSwede- you might be right about the sensor not being a true Hall effect.  I don't know- the wiring on the loom for the 'S' lead does go to ground, so that supports your statement (that it is just a shield).  I tried pretty much every combination of oscilloscope on the sensor and never got a signal out of it.  I might put it back in...but that involves removing the tank again. Twice.  I'm going to wait until my spare arrives, then see if I can get a signal out that.  I'm inertial in that regards.
L-720
1973 Eldorado
2003 Yardbird (1100 hydro)
2020 R1250RS

Offline doslemans

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Re: 2003 EV no start, Cam sensor?
« Reply #45 on: October 25, 2021, 09:54:11 PM »
Thank you so much for the info as to source.  Will pass on to bud as well as clearance install

Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: 2003 EV no start, Cam sensor?
« Reply #46 on: October 25, 2021, 11:05:01 PM »
-----------------------------------------
SSwede- you might be right about the sensor not being a true Hall effect.  I don't know- the wiring on the loom for the 'S' lead does go to ground, so that supports your statement (that it is just a shield).  I tried pretty much every combination of oscilloscope on the sensor and never got a signal out of it.  I might put it back in...but that involves removing the tank again. Twice.  I'm going to wait until my spare arrives, then see if I can get a signal out that.  I'm inertial in that regards.
My curiosity got the better of me so I went and measured the signal on my V7, the sensor measured 895 Ohms and it put out about half a Volt AC p-p while cranking, measured with my multimeter. I also hung the oscilloscope on it, quite a regular looking sine wave at about 100 Hz
The V7 is different to the old style one you picture, just one fixing screw but a similar cable and flat 3 pin connector, I wouldn't be surprised if they would work at a pinch.
If your old sensor is open circuit it's game over and yes the third wire is just a shield.
The odometer needs a Hall Effect so it doesn't miss any pulses, that type of sensor will switch at any speed right down to zero.
---------------------
One interesting thing, with the sensor unplugged  the motor would turn over for a couple of seconds, pause then try again without start button input as long as the key was left on.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2021, 11:25:36 PM by Kiwi_Roy »
72 Eldorado
17 V7iii Special
76 Convert
Half a V9 Roamer

Moto Guzzi - making electricians out of riders since March 15 1921

Offline SmithSwede

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Re: 2003 EV no start, Cam sensor?
« Reply #47 on: October 26, 2021, 11:15:03 AM »
Thanks Roy, that’s what I thought.  My theory is that this little 1/2 volt signal requires excellent connectors or the engine won’t run.  Which is why mine didn’t run even though I thought I had cleaned the connector and contact was good. 

What I don’t understand is why they fail.  Very simple little coil, so why would they crap out in only 30 to 60K miles?

I’ve been told that these were originally designed for the dry side of some Fiat engine.  Guzzi perversely uses them on the wet side of the engine, so they get doused in oil they were never designed to resist.  So does the hot oil get in there somehow and promote premature failure?

I think there is some kind of Locktite wicking sealant you can apply to the inner face of the sensor that would soak in and make the unit oil proof.  If I have to replace another one, I’m going to give the new one the Locktite treatment. 
Accentuate the positive;
Eliminate the negative;
Latch on to the affirmative;
Don't mess with Mister In-Between.

Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: 2003 EV no start, Cam sensor?
« Reply #48 on: October 26, 2021, 02:26:38 PM »
In my experience coils often fail at the solder joint where the coil is soldered to the leads, i'm not sure why, perhaps it's the corrosive nature of the solder flux or some differential expansion thing.
I used to find a lot of transformers would go open circuit where the stranded copper wire was joined to the winding.
--------------------
SmithSwede
 Do you have a source of the cam sensor for our V7s?
Never mind I ordered a pair for $10 ea off fleabay.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Crankshaft-Position-Sensor-For-FIAT-FIORINO-TEMPRA-SW-TIPO-PREMIO-LANCIA-7756925/323257492542
I know, I know I said no more Chinese parts.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2021, 06:22:03 AM by Kiwi_Roy »
72 Eldorado
17 V7iii Special
76 Convert
Half a V9 Roamer

Moto Guzzi - making electricians out of riders since March 15 1921

Offline jrt

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Re: 2003 EV no start, Cam sensor?
« Reply #49 on: October 26, 2021, 03:09:22 PM »
In my experience coils often fail at the solder joint where the coil is soldered to the leads, i'm not sure why, perhaps it's the corrosive nature of the solder flux or some differential expansion thing.
I used to find a lot of transformers would go open circuit where the stranded copper wire was joined to the winding.


Maybe- the wires are very stiff near the sensor end, much more supple near the plug...it may have cooked something?  Bike doesn't seem to run too hot, so maybe some combo of oil and heat? 
L-720
1973 Eldorado
2003 Yardbird (1100 hydro)
2020 R1250RS

Offline Iron Cross Junction

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Re: 2003 EV no start, Cam sensor?
« Reply #50 on: October 26, 2021, 03:16:31 PM »

Late to this party, and likely just as well as it seems resolved and, besides, as many here know, my own contributions to automotive-electric discussions are below zero.

Naturally, that won't stop me from saying something.   :shocked:

My EV suffered some years ago from a similar problem.  Eventually stranded me hundreds of miles from home.  A Guzzi dealer gave up on it.  Guzzi Guru Wayne Orwig figured it out! 

Corroded ignition switch.

I now use "products" to clean my Guzzis and only rarely wash them with water.

May have no application to the present problem, but I mention it if the issue recurs.

Bill
Bill Hagan

Proud Member of Moto Guzzi's Envy-of-the-Industry Post-Sale R&D Program!

1998 V11 EV [98 EV]
2004 V11 Ballabio, Sold; sigh
2007 Norge [NORJ], Sold; sigh
2010 Griso [GRISO]
2016 Stornello [BEATA]
2017 V7 III [RADOŚĆ]

Offline SmithSwede

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Re: 2003 EV no start, Cam sensor?
« Reply #51 on: October 26, 2021, 09:48:47 PM »

--------------------
SmithSwede
 Do you have a source of the cam sensor for our V7s?

Sorry, on the road and away from my receipts.  I just did a lot of googling.  These are used on a lot of Fiat engines, so search accordingly.  There is a huge price difference.  I wound up getting two or three from Latvia or Elbonia or someplace.  Arrived in a spiffy baby blue box.   The one I installed has worked great for 60,000 miles now, and was cheap.   Like $35.  I think Guzzi wants about $200.
Accentuate the positive;
Eliminate the negative;
Latch on to the affirmative;
Don't mess with Mister In-Between.

Offline nc43bsa

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Re: 2003 EV no start, Cam sensor?
« Reply #52 on: October 26, 2021, 10:06:40 PM »
This conversation about the price of a sensor reminds me of the time my Ducati roasted one its two Bosch ignition modules.

Ducati, Laverda, and Moto Guzzi all used the same module with the same Bosch part number.  Ducati wanted over $300 for it, Laverda wanted $250, and Guzzi wanted $125.  IIRC, I could have ordered it from the local Beck-Arnley, but it would have taken weeks, if not months, to arrive;  I don't remember their price.

Wanna guess where I bought the replacement module?
1990 MilleGT

Offline jrt

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Re: 2003 EV no start, Cam sensor?
« Reply #53 on: October 27, 2021, 09:45:19 PM »
Wanna guess where I bought the replacement module?


Latvia?

(jk)
L-720
1973 Eldorado
2003 Yardbird (1100 hydro)
2020 R1250RS

 

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