Author Topic: V7 Classic with Lario heads  (Read 140520 times)

Offline kevdog3019

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #180 on: February 06, 2015, 11:00:02 AM »
Taking something to a new place is always intriguing. This is definitely new ground being broken.  Keep us posted and best of luck!
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Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #181 on: February 06, 2015, 12:11:23 PM »
I can reach the lifters from inside the cylinder base hole....figured I would just hold them up as I pull the cam out...suppose I could clamp them up somehow, not sure I will need to.  I do not want to use anything magnetic on them.  We will find out tonight!

 ;-T :pop
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Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #182 on: February 06, 2015, 06:35:34 PM »
One thing you might want to take note of: it looks like your alternator rotor is a permanent magnet type.  If it is, you should store the rotor inside the stator.  The rotor needs to be close to the "keeper" for reasons having to do with magnetic flux lines, domain walls, and entropy.  Short version is storing the rotor bare for days on end can weaken the permanent magnets, which will reduce the alternator output.  Other than that, keep up the good work, and keep the pictures coming!

Howard

Good to know, I had not considered that!  I will keep them nested together.

Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #183 on: February 06, 2015, 11:58:14 PM »
Got a lot done tonight, started by removing the timing cover.



I removed the cam gear and ignition wheel.  While trying to move the timing gear tensioner over, I broke the plastic piece off.  Oh well, I need to order a timing cover gasket and some new lock washers for the cam gear anyway.  Looks like a call to Harpers is in order..I removed the oil sender and pulled the cam out of the engine..I was able to hold the lifters in place with a wadded up blue paper shop towel..



I took the collar off of the old cam by removing the little snap ring, then put it on the new cam.



I installed the new DLC Lario lifters in the case, and put the cam in. Coated the new cam with G-N metal assembly paste to help break in. Took a couple of pics of the lifters, the Lario ones are quite a bit different.





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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #183 on: February 06, 2015, 11:58:14 PM »

Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #184 on: February 07, 2015, 12:14:20 AM »
Got the new cam in, lined up the retainer with the oil sender, torqued the sender down.





I decided to start working on the cylinder installation. The new wrist pins were very tight in the pistons, so I used a brake cylinder hone to ease it up some.  I found the the top two piston rings were the same dimension for both pistons, but the oil control ring is a lot wider on the two valve engine.  I wound up using the original top two rings that were running in the bike.  Mainly because I figured they were already broken in to the cylinder. I used the oil control ring that came with the replacement piston.  Lubed up the ring compressor and stuck the piston in the cylinder.








Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #185 on: February 07, 2015, 12:20:58 AM »
I put on the cylinder base gasket, put in the little orange oring, stuck the wrist pin in the piston and set the whole assemblt on the case.  Pushed in the wrist pin and installed the circlips.





Installed the head gasket and put the head on.




Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #186 on: February 07, 2015, 12:34:05 AM »
I put on the Guzzi valve caps, put in the pushrods, put the guide collars on the top two studs.



Bolted down the rocker assembly.



A couple of things need to happen before I torque this down permanently. The top two Volkswagen studs are too long, so I need to pull them out one at a time and grind them off a little so the valve cover will fit. I also need to put some clay or something on top of the piston and check the valve to piston clearance, since I had the heads milled.  Dont want any bent valves!  I also noticed that these Imola II heads have the valve centers a little closer together, so the Lario rocker assembly will work, but it is not centered on the valve cap.






Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #187 on: February 07, 2015, 05:47:08 AM »
You've been busy..  ;D

Thanks for that! I wondered how they were held on there.
I probably wouldn't have had cajones enough for this one..  ~; but a guy's gotta do what he's gotta do..

Attaboy! Keep it up..
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
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Offline kevdog3019

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #188 on: February 07, 2015, 11:37:15 AM »
You're on a roll Mike.  This takes some real skills to put it all together.  Go get'em!  ;-T
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Offline IceBlue

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #189 on: February 08, 2015, 01:19:11 AM »
Impressive work Mike!! ;-T ;-T  :bow :bow

Noticed one thing. The progressive springs are upside down. The closely wound part of the spring should be and the base plate/retainer. Not at the top retainer. Is there a speciffic reason to turning them upside down Mike? The upside down position will leave more valve weight to be moved, lowering the top rpm.

The valve rockers not being centered on the valve stem is intentional. They are support to turn the valve slightly at each plunge  :)

Great you chose the Guzzi stem caps. My alternative suggestion turne out to be a poor choice. See Chucks Lario rehab thread.

Cheers
Brian
« Last Edit: February 08, 2015, 02:17:38 AM by IceBlue »
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Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #190 on: February 08, 2015, 07:53:34 AM »
Impressive work Mike!! ;-T ;-T  :bow :bow

Noticed one thing. The progressive springs are upside down. The closely wound part of the spring should be and the base plate/retainer. Not at the top retainer. Is there a speciffic reason to turning them upside down Mike? The upside down position will leave more valve weight to be moved, lowering the top rpm.

The valve rockers not being centered on the valve stem is intentional. They are support to turn the valve slightly at each plunge  :)

Great you chose the Guzzi stem caps. My alternative suggestion turne out to be a poor choice. See Chucks Lario rehab thread.

Cheers
Brian

Ah,  thanks for that Brian,  I was wondering about the orientation of the spring when I assembled the heads.  No big deal to pull them back off and turn the springs over.  I have to pull the studs and shorten them anyway.
My plan this afternoon is to shorten the studs and drill the right hand cylinder for the head temp sender.
One step at a time..
Cheers,

Offline kevdog3019

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #191 on: February 08, 2015, 08:18:14 AM »
Ah,  thanks for that Brian,  I was wondering about the orientation of the spring when I assembled the heads.  No big deal to pull them back off and turn the springs over.  I have to pull the studs and shorten them anyway.
My plan this afternoon is to shorten the studs and drill the right hand cylinder for the head temp sender.
One step at a time..
Cheers,

Took me a second to figure out what a "hand" cylinder was. Got it.   :P  Best of luck.
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Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #192 on: February 08, 2015, 09:34:02 PM »
Well, I had to do a bunch of dissassembly today, mainly to install the valve springs correctly and to shorten the Volkswagen studs to the right length.  I took the left cylinder back off, I decided to double check my final piston weights as compared to the original pistons.

Here is the new piston with the original top two rings and the V75 oil control ring, also with wrist pin and circlips:


Here is the V7 Classic piston, with the original ring set, wrist pin, and circlips...



Got them pretty close.  The left side is the same, both assemblies weighing in at 407.8 grams.

Pulled the long studs out, cut off .250".  Reinstalled them and torqued them in the case to 370 in/lbs.
When I assembled the cylinder and installed the rocker assembly, I found that i had cut them too short!  Sheesh!!  Luckily the Volkswagen cylinder stud kit I bought came with 10 studs, so I had extra.  I wound up just putting uncut studs in the top holes, by the time I torqued them in the case, the length was perfect...

Here's a stud I cut next to a stock one...


 

Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #193 on: February 08, 2015, 09:40:31 PM »
I took off the left cylinder head and removed the valve springs, turned them over and reinstalled them..

Some pics of that process:





Got them in correctly now..Lol




Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #194 on: February 08, 2015, 09:47:27 PM »
After getting the head back together, I assembled the piston back in the cylinder, installed it, put on the head gasket and head, put on the lashcaps, installed the pushrods, and did the final torque on the head.  I need to look up the valve clearance requirements before I put on the valve cover. Also, does anyone reading this have suggestions for spark plugs?  I am thinking about using stock plugs for the Lario, but not sure about the gap, with the electronic ignition..

A picture after torquing.  Note the stud length is fine..


Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #195 on: February 08, 2015, 10:04:53 PM »
I made the decision to mount the cylinder head temp sensor in the right hand cylinder, instead of the new head.  I figure cylinders are not as hard to get as four valve heads are.  I had a few criteria to meet as well. First of all I wanted it to function properly, and send accurate voltage to the ECU.  I also wanted it out of sight, and I needed the wire connector to reach it.  I also wanted to be able to remove it, in case it ever went bad and needed to be replaced.  I took the right cylinder out on the driveway and drilled a 13/32 hole in between the fins.  I located it just underneath and inboard of where the intake manifold mounts to the head. I then tapped the hole with a 12mm 1.50 pitch tap...



I sure hope this works...







Once I had the sender screwed in, I filled around it with some metal epoxy crap. 



I wanted to make sure I had good heat tranfer to the sender, so once the epoxy set up some, I pulled the sender out.  I am going  to leave it overnight to set up.  I plan on chasing the threads out with the tap again, then hopefully I can just screw the sender in and torque it.  That's it for today.




Offline SED

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #196 on: February 08, 2015, 11:08:52 PM »
Wow, Great thread!   and great pictures.  Just ran through the whole thing again.

Don't know this for sure, but the head probably gets hotter than the cylinder because the exhaust gasses are in contact with it longer.  It certainly shows up on my cast iron single.  It might not be an issue if you can adjust the computer to compensate for a lower temp at the sender.  Again, not sure this is correct - others here can probably tell you what needs to happen.

Thanks for a great thread. Looking forward to the fire-up!   ;-T

Shawn
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Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #197 on: February 09, 2015, 04:32:52 PM »
Quote
I need to look up the valve clearance requirements before I put on the valve cover. Also, does anyone reading this have suggestions for spark plugs?

Valve clearances are .004' and .005". Keep a close eye on them. If they get too wide, bad things happen. Fast.  ;D I've been running stock plugs to good effect. Patrick Hayes swears by iridium or platinum or something. I forget.. I'm old. Metalset is good stuff, but you knew that. Keep on keeping on... ;-T
 :pop 
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Offline kevdog3019

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #198 on: February 09, 2015, 07:31:46 PM »
Use regular plugs in mine. May try iridiums again sometime fur kicks. Gaps aren't that sensitive. I've gone as far as 1 mm when it ran too rich. I'm around .80 or so now. As long as it jumps the gap.


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Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #199 on: February 09, 2015, 07:40:20 PM »
Ok, .004 and .005.  Got it!  thanks for that.  I decided to go with NGK C8HSA plugs. The Lario calls for .023" spark plug gap.  the V7 Classic service manual calls for .023" to .027"  I figure I'll go with .025 and see how it works.
An interesting note, the spark plugs that fit the Lario head are smaller than the stock V7C plugs.  I ordered some parts from Harpers today, they are sending me the proper plug caps, and some 7mm wire and ends, so that I can fabricate the plug wires I need.  I knew I would need parts on this project that I had not anticipated..
Time to get to work!

Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #200 on: February 09, 2015, 07:44:23 PM »
Use regular plugs in mine. May try iridiums again sometime fur kicks. Gaps aren't that sensitive. I've gone as far as 1 mm when it ran too rich. I'm around .80 or so now. As long as it jumps the gap.


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Wow, .080 gap...that's pretty big!  I take it the coils have no problem jumping that? What wires did you use?
I gotta read your thread again!!  lol

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #201 on: February 09, 2015, 07:44:44 PM »
Quote
NGK C8HSA plugs. The Lario calls for .023" spark plug gap.

Worked for me...
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
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Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #202 on: February 09, 2015, 07:45:42 PM »
Wow, .080 gap...that's pretty big!  I take it the coils have no problem jumping that? What wires did you use?
I gotta read your thread again!!  lol

I think he means .8mm. .031"
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Online John A

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #203 on: February 09, 2015, 08:33:31 PM »
He's probly running a 44 amp magneto borrowed from a fuel car. Those things will kill you ,I'm told. :pop
John
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Offline kevdog3019

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #204 on: February 09, 2015, 09:10:25 PM »
Yes... mm not inch. While running rich Milich told me 1mm. Ran fine. I've lessened it because it's much leaner now. Stock C8HSA of course.


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Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #205 on: February 09, 2015, 10:53:10 PM »
Yes... mm not inch. While running rich Milich told me 1mm. Ran fine. I've lessened it because it's much leaner now. Stock C8HSA of course.


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Ah ok. I have run .060 gap on some ignitions, gotta get my metric thang going...lol  I appreciate the input!

Tonight I cleaned up the threads in the cylinder for the CHT probe.  Torqued the studs in the right side of the case to 370 in/lbs.  I set the valve clearances on the left cylinder and installed the valve cover. I checked the oil ring gap on the right cylinder, it was at .007"  I did not check the top two rings, as they were running in the cylinder before.  I installed the piston in the cylinder, put it on the engine, put in the wrist pin and circlips, and called it a night. 









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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #206 on: February 10, 2015, 02:33:34 AM »

Noticed one thing. The progressive springs are upside down. The closely wound part of the spring should be and the base plate/retainer. Not at the top retainer. Is there a specific reason to turning them upside down Mike? The upside down position will leave more valve weight to be moved, lowering the top rpm.


Sometimes i think I should just shut up and leave well enough alone but............ ::)

This doesn't sound right to me. The closer the winding the more easily they will compress. To reduce the weight moving with the valve you would want this up near the collets. That's the part of the spring that will compress first until they reach coil bind.

The wider the winding (the less turns per distance) the closer the spring is to being a rod that has no compression. That's how I remember it.

Bugging out now before the excrement hits the artificial wind machine.

Happy to be corrected.  :BEER:
« Last Edit: February 10, 2015, 04:51:06 AM by Yak Fat »

Offline Dogwalker

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #207 on: February 10, 2015, 03:59:48 AM »
I decided to go with NGK C8HSA plugs.
To me, it's better to go, for a start, with those prescribed for the V75 4V, not with those for the Lario. Originally they were the NGK C9H, or, better, the Denso U22FS-U (i find the Denso to be marginally better than the NGK).

http://www.globaldenso.com/cgi-bin/global/plug/euro/mc/mc-plug.cgi?action=search&filename=mc-91.txt&name=&cc=&FF=50

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #208 on: February 10, 2015, 07:08:58 AM »
Quote
I checked the oil ring gap on the right cylinder, it was at .007"

Isn't that too tight? I was thinking the spec was somewhere around .010.. I'll check and get back.
Edit:
Ok, I'm back after breakfast.  Gotta build strength for the day..  ;) looked in the V75 shop manual,and it sez:
Quote
oil scraper ring: mm 0.20 - 0.70 (in 0.0079 -
0.0275).
If it were me, I'd file a couple of thousanths off that end gap. It's *probably* ok, but out of spec. Better a lot loose than a little too tight.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2015, 07:56:53 AM by Chuck in Indiana »
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
87 AeroLario
95 Skorpion tour
22 Royal Enfield Classic 3 fiddy
 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
Albert Einstein

Offline kevdog3019

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #209 on: February 10, 2015, 07:15:10 AM »
I might agree on the spring orientation as you're not pushing the mass of the spring before collapse if the orientation is less at the top where the pressing occurs. The throw is slightly lighter I would think since it's mostly happening at the top of the spring not the bottom. No?  Splitting hairs I realize.


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