Author Topic: V7 Classic with Lario heads  (Read 140515 times)

Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #120 on: February 10, 2013, 11:53:34 PM »
And now for the moment of truth, piston weight.  The piston that came out of the engine was 306.2 grams.



The stock V75 four valve piston is a bit heavier at 341.2 grams.



Both pistons were weighed with rings.  An interesting note,  the V75 wrist pin is a lot heavier than the V7 Classic wrist pin.  16 grams heavier.  At this point I am going to either lighten up the V75 pistons, or order some pistons from Arias that are the proper weight.  

So far the list of unforeseen obstacles to this project has been easy to handle.

I have ordered Kibblewhite valves, so that I should not have a valve failure.
I have been able to order the proper pushrods, which are longer than the Lario pushrods.
I have been able to get four valve cylinder heads from Martin at Guzzipiushop.
Martin also supplied me with four Lario tappets, which must be used with the 4V setup.
Cylinder studs came from CB performance, a VW racing supply shop.
Nevada valve springs, seats, retainers etc..all came from TLM.
Pistons were found on ebay in Italy, or Arias can make them.

And the list goes on.  I'm sure it will be worth it in the end, at least the bike should breathe better.
As the build progresses I will post more pics.  Now I gotta go study up on CHT sensor inputs, see if I even need it..lol

Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #121 on: February 11, 2013, 12:00:47 AM »
Great info Mike  ;-T

I needed a set of studs too a while back for a 750 8V project. At that time the ony way even Martin Hagemann could help me was selling me an additional used V75/4 crank case - happy for that today, as it turned into an additional mill later on  ;D

Great work and great info ;-T

Yes, I think that the studs will work perfectly.  Looking forward to getting it together, and the dyno comparison!  Thanks for all of your help!   ;-T ;-T :BEER: :BEER: :BEER:

Offline Tazturtle

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #122 on: February 11, 2013, 02:05:32 AM »
Great thread  ;-T

Watching with keen interest!  :bow
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Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #123 on: February 11, 2013, 05:38:16 AM »
Quote
Great work and great info
;-T
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #123 on: February 11, 2013, 05:38:16 AM »

muzak

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #124 on: February 11, 2013, 09:03:12 AM »
Any chance you will have this ready by RvM in a few months? I'd love to see this thing in the flesh when you're finished.

Online Antietam Classic Cycle

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #125 on: February 11, 2013, 09:55:36 AM »
Both pistons were weighed with rings.  An interesting note,  the V75 wrist pin is a lot heavier than the V7 Classic wrist pin.  16 grams heavier.  At this point I am going to either lighten up the V75 pistons, or order some pistons from Arias that are the proper weight.  


Couldn't you also have the crank (re)balanced to work with the new heavier pistons? 
Charlie

Offline sign216

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #126 on: February 11, 2013, 11:38:01 AM »
Couldn't you also have the crank (re)balanced to work with the new heavier pistons? 

When I dropped in an 820cc kit the new pistons were heavier too.  A machinist with cycle building experience was able to lighten the pistons.  Don't have the numbers handy, but I think he was able to get them within 5-10% of the weight of stock pistons.  They have worked fine, although with a slight increase in vibrations.
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Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #127 on: February 11, 2013, 10:01:10 PM »
Any chance you will have this ready by RvM in a few months? I'd love to see this thing in the flesh when you're finished.

A definite maybe...Still have to send the heads off for new seats and guides, I guess it will depend on how long that takes.  I hope it will be done!

Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #128 on: February 11, 2013, 10:03:14 PM »
Couldn't you also have the crank (re)balanced to work with the new heavier pistons? 

Yes, but it is just easier and faster to lighten the pistons, rather than opening up the case you know...

Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #129 on: February 25, 2013, 05:32:30 PM »
A quick update, maybe a little bit off topic.  I have arranged with Millenium Technologies to scan and digitize the Lario heads that I have.  They can then take those measurments for the intake port, exhaust port, and combustion chamber, and machine the new Imola II heads to match the Lario heads.  Once the program is created, they will be able to do that with any Imola II head that comes in, as I will have paid for the R&D on the digital scan.  After they machine the Imola II heads, they will install the new bronze guides and new valve seats.  Costs for the scanning are pretty reasonable, $250 for each port, and $150 for the combustion chamber.  Then machining and installation of the seats and guides will be another $278 per head.  But after the first time, they can do an Imola II head for $278.  So not too bad, $1300 for the R&D, and about $560 to do the head work that I would do to the Lario heads anyway. 

And now for the off topic part of this post, got some new wheels today for the V7 Classic, they are quite a bit lighter.  The stock spoked steel wheel on the front weighs 15 pounds with the inner tube, the new wheel is 11.5, and no tube needed!  Whoo Hooo!!!

 


Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #130 on: February 25, 2013, 05:47:06 PM »
Sir, I salute you!  ;D  ;-T I assume that Imola heads are available? It would be absolutely great to not have to worry if I trash a head.  ;D If spending a little money will fix it.. no problem.  ;) ;D NLA sends a shiver through my spine. I've dealt with that stuff on antique airplanes entirely too often.
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
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Offline sign216

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #131 on: February 25, 2013, 05:52:28 PM »
I dip my hat to you. 
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Offline Tazturtle

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #132 on: February 25, 2013, 05:56:09 PM »
Awesome news on both counts!

Looking forward to pics of your beastie with all the new additions in place  ;-T
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Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #133 on: February 25, 2013, 07:26:54 PM »
A teaser picture..lol  Man it is tempting to just assemble what I have and run it!  But I want to get this research done, and it's winter anyway, so I just have to be patient.  Heads are shipping to Millenium this week.  That is the last outside service or parts I will need, then it's a before Dyno run with the two valve heads, and an after Dyno run with the four valve setup.  I'm hoping for a 15% increase.  Not sure if that is realistic, I guess we will see.   ;-T ;-T


Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #134 on: February 25, 2013, 07:39:42 PM »
Sir, I salute you!  ;D  ;-T I assume that Imola heads are available? It would be absolutely great to not have to worry if I trash a head.  ;D If spending a little money will fix it.. no problem.  ;) ;D NLA sends a shiver through my spine. I've dealt with that stuff on antique airplanes entirely too often.
I got to looking at the Imola II heads, because I have been wanting to do this conversion for a year now, and could not find a set of Lario heads.  That is how I started down the path of converting the Imola heads.
So far I have been able to get two pair of Imola II heads, one new set from Teo Lamers, for 100 Euro each.  Then found a used pair on Ebay, in the UK.  Bought the heads, valve covers, rocker assemblies, cam and lifters for $140.  Not too bad.  Martin at GuzziPIU shop currently has used Lario heads in stock, on sale for 300 Euro.  That seems pretty reasonable to me.  ;-T :BEER:
But I'm still going to get the scanning done, just to have that program available.  Gotta keep these 4V small blocks running!  I'm pretty passionate about them.  LOL  Brian said it right, once you get the bug, you are hooked!!   ;D ;D ;D

Offline leafman60

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #135 on: February 26, 2013, 08:35:22 AM »
Fabulous effort that I bet will pay good dividends.  I wish the factory had done as much when they "redesigned" the 750 top-end.

I'm also interested in how the power train will handle the expected power increase.

Thanks for your work !

Offline kevdog3019

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #136 on: February 26, 2013, 08:45:43 AM »
Fabulous effort that I bet will pay good dividends.  I wish the factory had done as much when they "redesigned" the 750 top-end.

I'm also interested in how the power train will handle the expected power increase.

Thanks for your work !

I would not expect any problem with the power train with the increases he's looking at. I'm talking a reasonable driver. You take any Goose and do burnouts day in and day out and the PT probably will suffer.
Kevin
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Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #137 on: February 26, 2013, 01:59:01 PM »
The Guzzi Baja Dakar bikes got the crap beat of them and most of the failures were in the frame and wheels. They did use a swingarm and rear hub from a LeMans adapted to the SB gearbox though so that much for sure is entirely different from what Mike will be using. I haven't seen any reports on the current swingarm assembly experiencing failures in recent years (I could be oh so totally wrong...) so perhaps the weak points of years prior have been resolved. One would hope so anyway.

Hey Mike, does a digital scan imply that they could make entire heads?

Sounds like they are just digitizing the combustion chamber and ports. Still good news for repairing "unrepairable" heads.
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
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Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #138 on: February 26, 2013, 06:25:50 PM »
The Guzzi Baja Dakar bikes got the crap beat of them and most of the failures were in the frame and wheels. They did use a swingarm and rear hub from a LeMans adapted to the SB gearbox though so that much for sure is entirely different from what Mike will be using. I haven't seen any reports on the current swingarm assembly experiencing failures in recent years (I could be oh so totally wrong...) so perhaps the weak points of years prior have been resolved. One would hope so anyway.

Hey Mike, does a digital scan imply that they could make entire heads?


I will call and ask, sounded like to me they have to have something to work with though.  I don't think they could do an entire head.

Offline kevdog3019

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #139 on: February 26, 2013, 08:04:29 PM »
Well... triple kudos to Mike for an offer I couldn't refuse on his old laced rims. Yeah... I think this guy deserves a Medal of Honor for helping my finances with my bike build. Good karma awaits him on this one!  Next time anyone needs something I have, I will pass along Mike's well-wishes.
So... talked with Ed and Mike is sending the rims along to him for the build. I love laced rims firstly, and secondly, I will be taking my Lario to a new place down the road. I will eventually strip her and do as Chuck is doing, except minimize dressing her back up. In other words, she will be cafe'd. Laced rims are the only route to go, so now she will sport fishnets early. One less thing to do later. I have my stock Lario, don't need two. Not sure how she'll look for now. Any photoshoppers out there who can put these on a Lario?  Ed is looking into adding a second disc up front.
A big thank you to Mike on this!!!
Kevin
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Offline IceBlue

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #140 on: February 27, 2013, 03:44:13 AM »

I will call and ask, sounded like to me they have to have something to work with though.  I don't think they could do an entire head.

I'd been looking to do this for a few years, but since I still can wip up heads here, I'm too much a mizer to fork out the money. However, degitizing the heads fully, would make possible a production, as well as implementing a few improvements like slightly wider cooling fins. This would serve two purposes, like better cooling and look better too. I always liked slightly over sized heads compared to the cylinder, like the Ippo. Looks cool right  :)  Just 1-2mm over shooting the diameter of the cylinder.



Imola II heads are often available in Italy - I guess a lot of Imola II's were roaming the Italian roads over the years. BTW - these hemi heads would give from 63-67 bhp on the crank - about the same as the 4V heads. Oh well - the 750 Ippo/aero mill has been discussed here more times than I can remember. Another lost opportunity on the shelves of Guzzi...  Beyond me, they didn't wip them up for the latest V7 engine development.

I  :bow to you work Mike!!
« Last Edit: February 27, 2013, 03:52:05 AM by IceBlue »
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Offline sign216

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #141 on: February 27, 2013, 06:44:05 AM »
Fabulous effort that I bet will pay good dividends.  I wish the factory had done as much when they "redesigned" the 750 top-end.

I'm also interested in how the power train will handle the expected power increase.

Thanks for your work !

I'm eager awaiting the end results.  However...I love the Heron heads.  It's the last production motorcycle with them, and it gives a broad powerband that starts down low in the rpm range.

With a marque as small as Guzzi, if they started making 4 valve heads I fear the would drop the Herons.
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Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #142 on: February 27, 2013, 06:58:53 AM »
I'm eager awaiting the end results.  However...I love the Heron heads.  It's the last production motorcycle with them, and it gives a broad powerband that starts down low in the rpm range.

With a marque as small as Guzzi, if they started making 4 valve heads I fear the would drop the Herons.

I know what you mean about the heron heads Joe.  They are a good design.  I remember my first pickup truck was a 1953 Dodge with an inline six, and a heron head.  It didn't have a lot of power, but it would always start, no matter what.  I just remember liking that it was simple enough for me to work on. LOL!  With what Guzzi has vested in the new redesigned small block, those heron heads will be around for a while yet.   ;-T ;-T ;-T
Gotta love the hemi design too!  LOL
« Last Edit: February 27, 2013, 07:02:33 AM by mwrenn »

Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #143 on: February 27, 2013, 07:12:49 AM »
I'd been looking to do this for a few years, but since I still can wip up heads here, I'm too much a mizer to fork out the money. However, degitizing the heads fully, would make possible a production, as well as implementing a few improvements like slightly wider cooling fins. This would serve two purposes, like better cooling and look better too. I always liked slightly over sized heads compared to the cylinder, like the Ippo. Looks cool right  :)  Just 1-2mm over shooting the diameter of the cylinder.

Yes, don't get me started on the Ippo/aero heads.  One of these days.... :) :) :)  ;-T ;-T ;-T
I'd like to give it a few years, and buy a 2013 Racer and put some square cylinders and Ippo heads on it....sheesh!!   This small block obsession is hard to shake!  LOL

Offline IceBlue

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #144 on: February 27, 2013, 12:49:17 PM »
Yes, don't get me started on the Ippo/aero heads.  One of these days.... :) :) :)  ;-T ;-T ;-T
I'd like to give it a few years, and buy a 2013 Racer and put some square cylinders and Ippo heads on it....sheesh!!   This small block obsession is hard to shake!  LOL

It would be a major achievement just to get your hands on the heads/pistons/cylinders/rockers/covers and pusg rods. No one wants to admit either having the parts/mills or know how to get their hands on the stuff...

It's a dream of mine, but a good 8V SB mill will pretty much do the same as the hemi 4V aero mill  8)
« Last Edit: February 27, 2013, 01:00:29 PM by IceBlue »
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Offline sign216

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #145 on: February 27, 2013, 02:58:07 PM »
Whatever happened with that Guzzi powered drone (with the Ippo/Areo engine) that was being offered for sale last year in southern USA?
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Offline IceBlue

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #146 on: February 28, 2013, 02:34:21 AM »
Whatever happened with that Guzzi powered drone (with the Ippo/Areo engine) that was being offered for sale last year in southern USA?

It just seemed to vaporize...
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Offline sign216

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #147 on: February 28, 2013, 07:22:40 AM »
It just seemed to vaporize...

I recall that just the engine was offered, but at a high price.  About as much as a new bike.  It would be great to play with.  Like so many things....
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Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #148 on: June 04, 2013, 08:18:41 PM »
Well, a quick update.  I had precision machining make me some custom weight wrist pins, so now my piston/ring/wrist pins are within 1/2 gram of the original pistons.  Kibblewhite fabricated some intake and exhaust valves for me.  I just got the Imola heads back from Millenium Cylinders.  There are a few more issues to fix, then I am ready to assemble the heads on the engine.  Right now the heads need to go back to Millenium so that they can deck the heads for higher compression.  Also they are going to remove some fins on the right hand head, and drill and tap for the cylinder head temp sensor.  When I get the heads back, they are going on the bike.  A few pics:



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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #149 on: June 04, 2013, 08:36:01 PM »
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