Bypassing Oil Cooler on a V11 LeMans?

[stick]

I have a small oil leak that seems to only occur when I drive my 2002 V11 LeMans.  The oils seems to go to weird places, like the pan that's bolted to the bottom triple tree (I think the air currents make the drip blow forwards), also slow drip off left side of oil cooler when parked.

Yesterday, I degreased everything.  Started dry.  Started the engine, let it run at 3000 rpm for about 15 minutes.  No sign of a leak.  Darn it!

So, I was thinking of bypassing the oil cooler to further isolate the leak, if/when it decides to.

Anyone got a cute way to either:
1) bolt the 2 banjo fittings together (basically remove the cooler) ??
Or,
2) is it OK to disconnect both lines out of the block, and just block the feed/return holes with appropriate sized bolts and crush washers?  Or would this mess up the oil circuit in a bad way?

Thanks in advance,
Stick

BTW, I have another 2002, champagne color LeMans that's presently for sale.  About $3900/bo
I'll have to start am ad in Classified area.  Located in Ashland, MA

[twhitaker]

The two likely spots near the top front would be the cam position sensor and the oil pressure sender. Possible, but unlikely, would be the gasket between the timing cover and the case.

Clean those areas and dust them with talcum powder then go for a ride.

You could pressure test the cooler, but a leak in it would be apparent as would the associated fittings. The fittings are weird, somewhat like a quick disconnect, with an o-ring making the seal on the taper.

[fotoguzzi]

  but unlikely, would be the gasket between the timing cover and the case.

not that unlikely, myV11 had a mist escaping around the timing cover seam mostly on the right side.

[twhitaker]

True, but I would expect a 13 year old bike to have been sorted out. I was 100% convinced my LeMans had that gasket problem. Turned out to be the porous cam position sensor.

[flangeman_70]

not that unlikely, myV11 had a mist escaping around the timing cover seam mostly on the right side.

Not that I am suggesting you have the same issue but it does happen. I could see the oil pooling in this area on my Centy. It took a few cleans to work out exactly where the oil was coming from.
I replaced the timing chest gasket this weekend and found that the top left bolt was stripped, probably when previous owner replaced the oil pump and funnily enough that it was between this and the right top bolt that the gaskeet had failed.
Helicoiled the case thread and replaced gasket and whacked in a some new cam belts for good measure. Problem solved!

[lucky phil]

I have a small oil leak that seems to only occur when I drive my 2002 V11 LeMans.  The oils seems to go to weird places, like the pan that's bolted to the bottom triple tree (I think the air currents make the drip blow forwards), also slow drip off left side of oil cooler when parked.

Yesterday, I degreased everything.  Started dry.  Started the engine, let it run at 3000 rpm for about 15 minutes.  No sign of a leak.  Darn it!

So, I was thinking of bypassing the oil cooler to further isolate the leak, if/when it decides to.

Anyone got a cute way to either:
1) bolt the 2 banjo fittings together (basically remove the cooler) ??
Or,
2) is it OK to disconnect both lines out of the block, and just block the feed/return holes with appropriate sized bolts and crush washers?  Or would this mess up the oil circuit in a bad way?

Thanks in advance,
Stick

BTW, I have another 2002, champagne color LeMans that's presently for sale.  About $3900/bo
I'll have to start am ad in Classified area.  Located in Ashland, MA

15 min at 3000 rpm stationary?
Cooked motor anyone
Ciao

[Tom]

Wouldn't hurt to have a fan blowing on the engine.  I don't know on the 15" at 3K though.   I'll wait on others to answer.

[stick]

15 min at 3000 rpm stationary?
Cooked motor anyone
Ciao

Actually, I did use 2 fans.  I've seen the leak from the timing sensor on my other V11, so I know it's not that.  And wouldn't the timing chest gasket leak bathe one or the other side of the block?  I just don't see any of that happening.
Main drips seem to be from the left, lower corner of the cooler, or that shield from the lower triple tree.

So nobody seems to know if I can "cork up" the feed/return lines on the engine block?  I don't want to cause an oil/starve issue by doing this.  On a Ducati, I believe it's OK to do this, because the models w/o oil coolers have fitting plugs (bolts) in those holes.

Removing the oil cooler for a day or 2 would give me much better visibility into the upper part of the block also.

[Chuck in Indiana]

I don't know about the big block, but on the small block Aero engine, blocking off the oil cooler would have been a very bad idea. They plugged the gallery to the filter cavity and ran the oil through the cooler first..then the filter.

[rocker59]

don't just plug the oil cooler holes in the pan.

you'll need to run a loop if you want to remove the cooler, itself.

[canuguzzi]

3000 rpm for 15 minutes, stationary, I don't think engine heat is the real issue but running at those rpms with the engine unloaded seems unwise if nothing else from a safety standpoint.

Things happen and with an engine making 3000 turns per minute, the bike not tied down with no way for the rear wheel to touch down, those things could be most unfortunate.

[lucky phil]

Actually, I did use 2 fans

Thank goodness for that
If you think it's the cooler, just clean it with solvent and blow dry with a compressor, spray some dye check developer on it and then cut some thin cardboard to wrap around it with tape applied. The blanking off the cooler will stop any leak blowing around.Take for a ride and pull the cardboard and check. A short ride at moderate temps won't hurt anything.
Ciao

[stick]

Thank goodness for that
If you think it's the cooler, just clean it with solvent and blow dry with a compressor, spray some dye check developer on it and then cut some thin cardboard to wrap around it with tape applied. The blanking off the cooler will stop any leak blowing around.Take for a ride and pull the cardboard and check. A short ride at moderate temps won't hurt anything.
Ciao

Phil:
Great idea!!  No worse than running with the cooler bypassed (hose banjo fittings mated).  And if it is the oil cooler, the cardboard will get soaked!  Thanks for the insight!

[Chuck in Indiana]

Thank goodness for that
If you think it's the cooler, just clean it with solvent and blow dry with a compressor, spray some dye check developer on it and then cut some thin cardboard to wrap around it with tape applied. The blanking off the cooler will stop any leak blowing around.Take for a ride and pull the cardboard and check. A short ride at moderate temps won't hurt anything.
Ciao

 

[Tom]

 

[stick]

Just an update:  Work last week had me on a road trip - away from my toys.
I did get to play with the LeMans over the weekend.  Used the cardboard cover for the oil cooler.  Took for a 20 mile ride. No oil soaking the cardboard.  Still signs of oil on the steering damper, and lower tree "air deflector".  Definitely coming from above the oil cooler, and under the tank.  Also, I removed my left glove, and felt for oil/air currents down in the fairing - and there's heat flow that comes forward, as I suspected. 

So It's time to take the tank off and have a look-see as to what's leaking.  Suspect the breather/return line from the frame?  The fitting in front of tank is tight, but I'll need to get in there and see.

BTW, my 2002 champagne colored LeMans w/ 60K sold this past w/e. No ad, just a sign next to the bike on a busy corner.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Suspect the breather/return line from the frame? 

I would. 

[Tom]

Just an update:  Work last week had me on a road trip - away from my toys.
I did get to play with the LeMans over the weekend.  Used the cardboard cover for the oil cooler.  Took for a 20 mile ride. No oil soaking the cardboard.  Still signs of oil on the steering damper, and lower tree "air deflector".  Definitely coming from above the oil cooler, and under the tank.  Also, I removed my left glove, and felt for oil/air currents down in the fairing - and there's heat flow that comes forward, as I suspected. 

So It's time to take the tank off and have a look-see as to what's leaking.  Suspect the breather/return line from the frame?  The fitting in front of tank is tight, but I'll need to get in there and see.

BTW, my 2002 champagne colored LeMans w/ 60K sold this past w/e. No ad, just a sign next to the bike on a busy corner.

Ftom under the tank?  Usually, the oil iines on the top of the engine where it bolts in.  It'll be easy to spot 

[stick]

Finally had the time to remove tank.  Then I decided fairing, too, for accessibility + viewing.  What a load of crap under there!  quite the rats-nest of hardware, wires, hoses, wow. 

I'm guessing it's the breather hose that goes between the rear top part of the block and connects to under side of frame.  So Now I understand the "other" lines that connect to that piece of the frame, too.  This is after looking at an oil circuit diagram on-line...
And it looks like there's a screw head for the coil mounting brackets that is just touching this hose at its first bend to the rear.

I've had the tank off my other 2002 Lemans, and I never even realized that this hose was there (it's so jam-packed with CRAP!)

But why couldn't they made it smaller/cleaner, similar to my Ducati?   Small hose to a breather/coalescer box, and another hose to airbox.  Short hose to coalescer acts as breather AND oil drain-back...

Anyway, I'll order the recommended replacement thru MGCycle.

[guzzied]

Hopefully it is just a cracked breather hose.  I remember a few years ago there was a 2003 Rosso Corsa that had a burn't piston which caused a lot of blow by. The frame is part of the breather system, the oil condenses and drain's back into the engine sump (if I remember correctly). If too much oil get's pushed up to the frame, you will have weird leaks.

The fix was a piston and cylinder

Mike

[stick]

Thx for the help.  I'm pretty sure it's the OEM breather hose on the bike.  I get a smidge of a better view where it hits the rear of the block.  It appears that it's all "weather cracked".  Almost seems like it wasn't engineered to carry oil vapor at all....

The fix should be "in the mail" by now.

[twhitaker]

I've had to replace that hose a couple times over the years. Take a close look at the hose that runs to the air box too.

[stick]

So, in a nutshell, it was the oil breather hose.

But when I removed the old one, and pressurized it, I could not hear or find a leak!  Go figure!
And I had ordered a replacement one from MGCycle.com.  It turned out I ordered one that was about 3" too short (the $11.00 hose).  I didn't know there was a $33 version that would have worked!
So I made one out of some tubing I had kicking around.  Bad choice, because the following morning, I noticed it collapsed just above the bell housing in the 90 degree bend.  Darn!!  Tried to place a tie-wrap around that area to make it round again...not great...

And my test drive of that one did not inspire confidence.  Saw some signs of oil from "other places", most likely due to the sump having a bit too much pressure...

So, once again off with the tank and a "plan".  I since read in here about making your own, using nylon fittings and heater hose.  I wish I saw this thread earlier!! 
But with that, you end up with 4 additional hose clamp connections...so...

I made the choice to cut the $11.00 "too short" MGCycle hose, insert a piece of copper tubing, and wala, a tube that fits, with only 2 additional hose clamps!.   I also went ahead and inserted a small amount of that heavy duty SS "stretched wool", making sure the tube still had good breath-ability.  I figure that this would be a decent place to coalesce the oil droplets enroute to the frame breather area, and maybe they can dribble back to the sump.  I really don't like the fact that the oil mist gets blasted into the frame, right below the suction/vent line that connects to the airbox.  I'm hoping that this additional coalescer will keep the air box a bit cleaner.

So far so good.  A few hundred miles on this latest fix, and no more signs of oil from "other" places!!

[Chuck in Indiana]

FWIW, if you need to bend a straight hose and don't want it collapsing, go to the friendly hardware man and find a spring that fits the inside diameter of the hose. You can bend it 90 degrees then, no problemo..

[Tom]

That's a good tip. 

[stick]

Yup, Thanks.  Even an external spring may work for this.  I was just trying to use "what I had".

[Tom]

You can try it but the spring has to be inside the hose.