Author Topic: It's said that BMW ties a clutch plate on a string and designs a bike around it  (Read 7760 times)

Offline ohiorider

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Think I heard this years ago from a good BMW wrench.  It looks like they have finally decided to go with a wet, multi-plate clutch mounted on the front of water cooled boxer twin.  After seeing Beemers in my favorite shop with frames crabbed, final drive and tranny removed to replace a failed clutch (or seals that allowed oil onto the dry plate clutch,) seems like they're onto something.  This isn't unique to Boxer twins, as I recall having seen many pics over the past several years of Guzzis hanging from the rafters, engine dropped, to do a similar clutch repair. I wonder if Guzzi, in a future iteration of the venerable V twin, might choose to take a similar path?

The assumption here is that the front mounted clutch could be removed and replaced without disturbing the tranny or final drive.  I believe the new water boxer utilize a unit construction engine and transmission.

I'm sure there's some downsides to their new design.  Any thoughts?
« Last Edit: February 16, 2016, 06:12:56 AM by ohiorider »
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Offline mtiberio

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worked for honda with the cx500.

obviously having to take apart an entire bike to get to the clutch has always been one of the weak points of our design. To get the clutch up front, you have to raise the CG. everything has a cost.
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Online Kev m

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It does seem to be a clever solution to the problem, though I'm sure it's not without its own compromises.

But I like the idea for sure.

Actually I was just looking at this video breakdown of the new wet-head R1200 motor/drivetrain the other day. You might enjoy it too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R817so8zhUY&feature=youtu.be

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Online tazio

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"The refinement of MG engines" was brought up last August.
Clutch up front like some beemers was my suggestion. Still is.
Riders I know bring this up to me OFTEN.
 The sight of a crabbed bike
can make grown men cry..
(Yet, someone like Wayne will tackle it just for therapy)Lol.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2016, 06:42:19 AM by tazio »
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Offline leafman60

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A properly designed and built clutch should be something that does not require regular tears downs and repairs.

Yes, the new BMW clutch is mounted on the front of the boxer engines.  It incorporates more complication, a shaft turning inside a shaft to route power transmission to and from the front clutch.


Offline leafman60

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Talking about hanging from a string, during design of the previous 1200 boxer, BMW was shooting to reduce the weight of the bike by a designated amount of kilos. 

They actually hung a bag of sand or weight of that target amount from a rope in the design room to motivate the extreme weight savings obsession of the designers.  Lots of plastic and shaved parts used!

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Quote
It incorporates more complication

From BMW? Shirley, you jest.  :smiley:
Crabbing the frame on a Guzzi is really no... big... deal. *Assuming* no rusted fasteners that have to be cave manned out, a guy can have the transmission out in about 2 hours. Not much labor for something that only has to be done maybe once in 100000 miles.
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Offline ohiorider

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It does seem to be a clever solution to the problem, though I'm sure it's not without its own compromises.

But I like the idea for sure.

Actually I was just looking at this video breakdown of the new wet-head R1200 motor/drivetrain the other day. You might enjoy it too:

Thanks!

Bob

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R817so8zhUY&feature=youtu.be
« Last Edit: February 16, 2016, 09:51:19 AM by ohiorider »
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Offline charlie b

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How often do you need to change the clutch on a bike?  And crabbing the frame is ssoooo much easier than adjusting the valves on a lot of bikes.  Even my Honda NT700 took longer to adjust the valves than crabbing the frame on the goose.
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Offline Tobit

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If I saw it correctly in the animation, notice that yes, the clutch has been moved to the front, but the alternator is now moved to the rear.  How accessible is it? 

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Offline swordds

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What does "crabbing the frame" mean?
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Offline Chuck in Indiana

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What does "crabbing the frame" mean?

It's a method of picking up the rear of the motorcycle and pivoting it around the front lower motor mount bolt. Put a 2x4 between the valve covers, and the frame sits there with the transmission exposed.
Pete (as far as I know) coined the term, and did a tutorial. From memory, it's hosted on thisoldtractor.
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Offline twhitaker

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Online Kev m

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If I saw it correctly in the animation, notice that yes, the clutch has been moved to the front, but the alternator is now moved to the rear.  How accessible is it? 

Tobit

I think you're right that it's on the rear of the crankshaft. But because the power is not being pulled from the rear of the crankshaft there's not transmission in the way and there's an access cover there. The question is of course as you asked, how easy is it to get to that cover. Good question.
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Online Wayne Orwig

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Crabbing the frame on a Guzzi is really no... big... deal.

There is that damn airbox on the late model Tontis. What a pain.
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Online Antietam Classic Cycle

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I get the "joy" of doing the clutch on Nick's EV soon. Not looking forward to it, even less so with Wayne's comment above.

I'd much rather do the job on a Loopframe - much simpler IMO, no crabbing or hanging anything from the ceiling. The chassis just sits there on it's front wheel and centerstand, engine tilted forward. 
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Offline cruzziguzzi

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While I think the "string" thing is hilarious and have never dealt with the BMW clutch, I can say that dealing with "dropping" a Guzzi power pack has never really presented as unduly tedious or time consuming in any perceived extraneous labor.

Sure, it takes longer than a two wheel drive truck but I've dealt with so many other clutch situations which were very much worse. Also, there're a bunch of other things one can attend to while this is going on.

Probably, the only thing which stands out as annoying is dealing with exhaust systems but I can't stand dealing with them on any vehicle - for any reason.


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Offline jbell

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It does seem to be a clever solution to the problem, though I'm sure it's not without its own compromises.

But I like the idea for sure.

Actually I was just looking at this video breakdown of the new wet-head R1200 motor/drivetrain the other day. You might enjoy it too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R817so8zhUY&feature=youtu.be

Thanks for the link, Kev.  Unfortunately, my projects never seem to go together that smoothly. 
Aside from maintenance, are there any mechanical, design or weight savings advantages?  Maybe with the higher hp newer engines, clutch replacement is more of an issue than the older beemers
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Online Wayne Orwig

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Sure, it takes longer than a two wheel drive truck but I've dealt with so many other clutch situations which were very much worse.

Like front wheel drive clutch jobs. Pretty close to removing the car from the motor on many of those.


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Offline cruzziguzzi

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Like front wheel drive clutch jobs. Pretty close to removing the car from the motor on many of those.
Yup, I think possibly the worst was either a VW or Ford Escort which I had volunteered to help out a friend with. Crimeny! I was all but begging him to sell the car partway through.

Things like that; Kenworths, 4WDs and the like, make sitting on a stool next to a Guzzi, in a pleasant environment a nearly relaxing experience if time is not an issue.


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Offline ohiorider

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Many of the responses in this thread assume the owner, not a shop, is going to do the clutch repair/replacement.  What if ..... a not-so-good wrench decided to take a Norge 2v, for example, to a quality Guzzi shop to have the clutch replaced.  Forget the cost of parts for a moment.  Does anyone know what the average flat rate would be for a shop to replace the clutch .... ie how many hours on average would a shop charge for labor?  And would $100.00/hour be an average going rate?
« Last Edit: February 16, 2016, 10:01:56 AM by ohiorider »
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Online Wayne Orwig

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Yes, the new BMW clutch is mounted on the front of the boxer engines.  It incorporates more complication, a shaft turning inside a shaft to route power transmission to and from the front clutch.

From the video, the clutch is gear driven off of the front of the crank. The clutch output goes to a drive line shock absorber near the starter motor in the rear. The only shaft inside that shaft, would be the clutch release pushrod. A standard thing.

Scientist have discovered that people will believe anything, if you first say "Scientists have discovered...."

Online Wayne Orwig

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If I saw it correctly in the animation, notice that yes, the clutch has been moved to the front, but the alternator is now moved to the rear.  How accessible is it? 

And worse. The animation implies that it is a permanent magnet alternator. I'm not a fan of those.
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Offline pyoungbl

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Does anyone know what the average flat rate would be for a shop to replace the clutch .... ie how many hours on average would a shop charge for labor?  And would $100.00/hour be an average going rate?

I know of a Stelvio that just got a new clutch...10 hours labor.
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canuguzzi

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Many of the responses in this thread assume the owner, not a shop, is going to do the clutch repair/replacement.  What if ..... a not-so-good wrench decided to take a Norge 2v, for example, to a quality Guzzi shop to have the clutch replaced.  Forget the cost of parts for a moment.  Does anyone know what the average flat rate would be for a shop to replace the clutch .... ie how many hours on average would a shop charge for labor?  And would $100.00/hour be an average going rate?

Given the huge differences in what dealers charge, best to call one or several and know for sure.

My Norge has been one of the least expensive bike for dealer service. Everything is negotiable. You can get ballpark prices here but often they bear little relationship to what you'll actually pay, its often much less in my experience.

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 Modern bikes are as complicated as cars, but less of it so to speak....And a clutch change on a newer car/truck is usually an involved job and not inexpensive especially with all wheel drive.
 Do you think BMW for example changed the location of it's bike clutch for servicing or was it because a packaging/engineering concerns ?
 On the Guzzi, is clutch life shorter than other bikes of similar weight and power?

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Crabbing is a term used to describe out of alignment wheels where the bike goes down the road slightly skewed, hence the "crab" and also when you see a bike that wallows through a turn where it looks like ends are trying to swap.

Here is is used to describe a repair procedure but most riders know of the other application of the term.

The term crabbing when it comes to motorcycles has been around for at least 40 years if not more.

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Many of the responses in this thread assume the owner, not a shop, is going to do the clutch repair/replacement.  What if ..... a not-so-good wrench decided to take a Norge 2v, for example, to a quality Guzzi shop to have the clutch replaced.  Forget the cost of parts for a moment.  Does anyone know what the average flat rate would be for a shop to replace the clutch .... ie how many hours on average would a shop charge for labor?  And would $100.00/hour be an average going rate?

My little bro Jay is a pretty good wrench and has an extensive shop, and he still chose to gave a shop do the clutch on the B11... I'm thinking it was over $1k, not sure what was parts and labor though. Maybe he'll chime in.

In contrast I can do the wet clutch on the Harley for something like $100-200 in parts, and labor is a few hours. It's just one side (primary) cover that has to be removed.

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Offline Roebling3

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A bmw guru and long time friend says the reason for the wet clutch has a lot to do with their perpetually noisy transmissions, BTW: Getrag builds their Trans. & final drives. Apparently there is not enough drag on the gear train in normal operation and balk rings and gears jiggle back and get ahead of the next shift. It causes all manner of racket. Stethoscope one running on a center stand. It's amazing. The wet clutch will limit that. They previously have tried O rings between the gears! A rather sloppy engineering(?) choice, in my view.  R3~ 

Offline jas67

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My little bro Jay is a pretty good wrench and has an extensive shop, and he still chose to gave a shop do the clutch on the B11... I'm thinking it was over $1k, not sure what was parts and labor though. Maybe he'll chime in.

In contrast I can do the wet clutch on the Harley for something like $100-200 in parts, and labor is a few hours. It's just one side (primary) cover that has to be removed.

The labor was about $1,400 to replace the clutch in my Breva 1100.
Norge should be the same, maybe more due to more tupperware.

By contrast, a clutch replacement on nearly any Japanese bike with the clutch under a side cover of the motor/transmission can be done in a couple of hours.

I'd say that design change to the the new Boxer was done to make the clutch more accessible.

« Last Edit: February 16, 2016, 10:43:26 AM by jas67 »
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