Author Topic: V85 engine infos  (Read 10207 times)

Offline Dogwalker

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V85 engine infos
« on: April 28, 2018, 10:10:13 AM »
Pictures and drawings of the V85 engine had been shown on the Italian Magazine "Motociclismo" along with an interview with Antonio Cappellini (product development director of Piaggio Group).
The engine is still a 2valves, pushrods and rockers, with the same bore and stroke of the V9.
Shorter and lighter pistons and lighter piston rods and cranckshaft (30% less weight in respect to the V9 assembly).
Bigger valves (45mm intake, 39mm exhaust instead of 40.5-35.5mm), titanium intake valves.
Roller lifters (and so completely different camshaft profile).
Bigger throttle body (52mm instead of 38mm).
Semi-dry sump (the sump is still under the crankcase, but it's completely separated from it. There is a double oil pump, with one of the bodies aspiring oil from the crankcase and pushing it into the sump).
Five head bolts instead of four.
Reinforced block to use the engine as stressed part of the frame.
80ps at 8400rpm, 80nm at 3400rpm.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2018, 01:58:19 PM by Dogwalker »

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: V85 engine infos
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2018, 10:15:31 AM »
The ghost of the 4V engines must be haunting them..  :smiley:
Thanks, DW  :thumb:
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
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Offline Dogwalker

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Re: V85 engine infos
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2018, 10:24:58 AM »
For a 2V pushrods and rockers the claimed performances are quite astonoshing.
In the same number of the magazine there is the test of the Ducati Scrambler 1100. OHC and shorter stroke, but 85.5ps at 7500rpm and 87.4nm only at 5200rpm (at the crankshaft).

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: V85 engine infos
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2018, 10:26:07 AM »
I would imagine "claimed" is the operative word..  :smiley:
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
87 AeroLario
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Re: V85 engine infos
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2018, 10:26:07 AM »

Offline bad Chad

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Re: V85 engine infos
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2018, 01:06:46 PM »
That's a huge increase in the throttle body!
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Offline Rick4003

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Re: V85 engine infos
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2018, 03:58:20 PM »
Do you have a link for the article? Would love to see the pictures and drawings. Sounds promising for sure [emoji4]

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Offline pauldaytona

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Re: V85 engine infos
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2018, 04:44:41 PM »
You can get the whole magazine digital at your tablet or phone for 3.49 euro. Add the edisport app to your device, and select the magazine, and pay.
http://www.motociclismo.it/motociclismo-maggio-2018-69243

Also drive by wire, selectable maps. They make a naked too, and some other one.
Paul

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beetle

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Re: V85 engine infos
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2018, 04:56:39 PM »
80 HP with 2 valves and pushrods? I think not.




pete roper

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Re: V85 engine infos
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2018, 05:42:12 PM »
It’s using the same throttle body and I assume the 7SM controller as the Cali 1400. With a smaller capacity and low velocity, low breathing heads the throttle plate control is going to have to be very precise if it isn’t going to have to idle at 2,000rpm or above or stall, a lot!

It still sounds like a stop-gap motor to me. The V9 heads and rocker carriers certainly look like they have provision for a central plug and extra valves. Even so if it remains a pushrod operated OHV engine I don’t think it’s going to set the world alight.

Pete

jwinwi

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Re: V85 engine infos
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2018, 06:02:31 PM »
If they made an 850 LeMans with 4V per cylinder I'd buy a one year old  leftover at a nice discount...  :drool:

Offline LowRyter

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Re: V85 engine infos
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2018, 06:21:44 PM »
sounds like it's oil cooled.

prolly 65 hp on the wheel.

FYI, my "Sport" has 75 at the shop dyno.  It's the quickest Guzzi I've ridden, right there with the Cal  14.  of course torque ain't HP, so maybe I am wrong.
John L 
When life gets you down remember it's one down and the rest are up.  (1-N-23456)

Offline Huzo

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Re: V85 engine infos
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2018, 06:34:15 PM »
There's a massive difference in RPM between the claimed peak torque and peak power.

Offline LowRyter

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Re: V85 engine infos
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2018, 06:39:21 PM »
8400 for 85HP.  OK.  I get it now.

wow, that's a lot of pushrods, 2 per side.  But that's alotta pushrod.  :wink:
John L 
When life gets you down remember it's one down and the rest are up.  (1-N-23456)

beetle

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Re: V85 engine infos
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2018, 07:06:49 PM »
There's a massive difference in RPM between the claimed peak torque and peak power.


So....what?



Offline Huzo

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Re: V85 engine infos
« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2018, 07:37:49 PM »

So....what?
I'd not recalled seeing such a massive gulf between the two figures in other tables.
Before anyone goes all Old Testament on my arse, I'm not suggesting that this gives their claims any additional credence, but if the torque figure does not drop off too markedly as the revs rise, won't the sheer fact that it rev's to mid 8's multiply out to give the "bench horsepower" figure that they claim, or at least a higher one than seems plausible ?
And anyway, as has been canvassed here before, all the drive train losses will drag it back to the field.

Even if it held onto 65 Nm @ 8400 and that's a massive leap to assume, it still calculates out to

65 (Nm) x 8400 (RPM)/9.54= 57,232 Watts or 57 kW
Dividing that by .746 for Hp
Gives 77 Hp
That's assuming there are still 65 Nm kicking around @ that 8,400 RPM.
But as bench figures at the crank go, it's kinda' thereabouts isn't it ?
« Last Edit: April 28, 2018, 07:55:43 PM by Huzo »

pete roper

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Re: V85 engine infos
« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2018, 07:44:57 PM »
The higher the engine speed the more the VE drops. It’s not a straightforward linear progression. ME also drops off as engine speed increases.

Pete

Offline Huzo

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Re: V85 engine infos
« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2018, 07:57:15 PM »
The higher the engine speed the more the VE drops. It�s not a straightforward linear progression. ME also drops off as engine speed increases.

Pete
Hmmm...
That's over my head.

pete roper

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Re: V85 engine infos
« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2018, 08:03:13 PM »
Volumetric and mechanical efficiencies Peter. Two of the three factors that govern how a motor performs.

beetle

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Re: V85 engine infos
« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2018, 08:31:17 PM »
Assuming VE & ME degrade typically as per other Guzzi engines, then 75-80% of peak torque could be available at peak power. So 65Nm is possible, on paper. However, since factory power & torque claims can be taken with a grain of salt, and since I do not believe a small block pushrod engine can make 80HP, colour me sceptical. I'd like to be proven otherwise.


Offline Huzo

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Re: V85 engine infos
« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2018, 08:34:58 PM »
Volumetric and mechanical efficiencies Peter. Two of the three factors that govern how a motor performs.
That's a dark area for me and ever will be.

Offline pyoungbl

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Re: V85 engine infos
« Reply #20 on: April 28, 2018, 08:54:19 PM »
Whatever, it's still a damn sight better than the rather lame 41 RWHP my V7 is putting out.  Make no mistake, the V7 is still a nice bike.  With that said, I'm hoping to see the V85 in the near future...that is, in my lifetime.

Peter Y.
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Offline jas67

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Re: V85 engine infos
« Reply #21 on: April 28, 2018, 09:26:02 PM »
850 Guzzi with a hot cam?
Bring on the Nuovo LeMans!   :food:
« Last Edit: April 28, 2018, 09:26:23 PM by jas67 »
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Offline Huzo

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Re: V85 engine infos
« Reply #22 on: April 28, 2018, 10:33:57 PM »
Assuming VE & ME degrade typically as per other Guzzi engines, then 75-80% of peak torque could be available at peak power. So 65Nm is possible, on paper. However, since factory power & torque claims can be taken with a grain of salt, and since I do not believe a small block pushrod engine can make 80HP, colour me sceptical. I'd like to be proven otherwise.
Well right or wrong, at least you're making your judgements from the basis of sound knowledge and educated opinion.

Offline Dogwalker

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Re: V85 engine infos
« Reply #23 on: April 29, 2018, 02:51:54 AM »
There's a massive difference in RPM between the claimed peak torque and peak power.
Cappellini said that the torque curve is a straight line untill the limiter.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2018, 02:54:29 AM by Dogwalker »

pete roper

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Re: V85 engine infos
« Reply #24 on: April 29, 2018, 03:11:39 AM »
Cappellini is no Carcano.

Offline Huzo

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Re: V85 engine infos
« Reply #25 on: April 29, 2018, 03:20:26 AM »
Cappellini said that the torque curve is a straight line untill the limiter.
For that to be correct, the claimed max power must also be correct, if the tachometer doesn't lie.
If they arrive here, I'll get one and go for a ride to Canberra. (Or thereabouts)

beetle

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Re: V85 engine infos
« Reply #26 on: April 29, 2018, 04:05:38 AM »
For that to be correct, the claimed max power must also be correct, if the tachometer doesn't lie.
If they arrive here, I'll get one and go for a ride to Canberra. (Or thereabouts)



Not if their dyno was calibrated with these horses.






pete roper

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Re: V85 engine infos
« Reply #27 on: April 29, 2018, 04:50:41 AM »
And before anyone gets all heavy on our case just remember that our torque and HP figures are, as far as I know, repeatable LOWER than the claims made by assorted other heroes on a half shell. Why would we bother publishing them if we thought we were so far off the pace?

The fact is that a very large number of *Experts* aren’t. In fact they haven’t a bloody clue!

Whether folks choose to believe us, or ‘Others’ is up to them but I’ll happily challenge anyone to ride a Griso tuned and mapped by us against anything else offered by other shops and not say that *Ours* is more enjoyable to ride.

And no, we aren’t interested in a road race against luddites who think that nothing has changed since 1960.


Offline Dogwalker

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Re: V85 engine infos
« Reply #28 on: April 29, 2018, 05:56:27 AM »
Cappellini is no Carcano.
You don't need to be Carcano to describe a torque curve.

« Last Edit: April 29, 2018, 06:05:31 AM by Dogwalker »

Offline Dogwalker

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Re: V85 engine infos
« Reply #29 on: April 29, 2018, 06:05:04 AM »
I would imagine "claimed" is the operative word..  :smiley:
We have to wait for the real thing to be put on a test bench, but the claimed figures of the V9 resulted to be even a little underestimated, so i've not reasons to not believe them for now.

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