V85 engine infos

[Zoom Zoom]

Having ridden the V9, I was surprised with it. Real world had enough power to accelerate onto a highway without feeling I was going to be run over. At 60mph, there was still enough left to easily speed up to traffic that was going way over the speed limit. I figure that as long as it has that, it should do fine. More is better I guess but I didn't feel slighted with the V9 Roamer.

On another note, and this is a question to the collective. Do I remember that for some reason all HP and Torque curves cross each other at 5250rpm's for some reason? Or, is that a thing of the past with modern designs?

Don't know if that really matters other than my curiosity.

John Henry   

[giusto]

Not sure f this has been shared on this or other threads....newest article I've seen


cheers

https://www.cycleworld.com/man-behind-moto-guzzis-concept-v85-enduro-adv#page-6

[pyoungbl]

Dogwalker, After sleeping on this thread I can't help but wonder about the pushrod and roller tappet arrangement.  Is the V85 engine going to be more like a scaled down 1200 lump with a chain driven cam in the head and very short pushrods.  I thought that was a smart arrangement on my Stelvio (let's not talk about those damn DLC tappets).  The pushrods were only about 1.5" long but served to move the cam lower in the head and thus reduce the height of the whole lump.  The semi dry sump sounds like it will also keep the engine smaller.  The more I think about the V85 the more I like it!

Peter Y.

[Dogwalker]

It's not a Centauro-Stelvio arrangement (rised camshaft). It's a standard V7-V9 arrangement (central camshaft), but wit roller tappets.
Considering that the V85 has a long stroke (77mm) and so long pushrods, the revving they obtained is quite remarkable (max power at 8400 rpm tells of a limiter a 9000 rpm).

[LowRyter]

Having ridden the V9, I was surprised with it. Real world had enough power to accelerate onto a highway without feeling I was going to be run over. At 60mph, there was still enough left to easily speed up to traffic that was going way over the speed limit. I figure that as long as it has that, it should do fine. More is better I guess but I didn't feel slighted with the V9 Roamer.

On another note, and this is a question to the collective. Do I remember that for some reason all HP and Torque curves cross each other at 5250rpm's for some reason? Or, is that a thing of the past with modern designs?

Don't know if that really matters other than my curiosity.

John Henry

regarding 5250, that is a mathematical formula computing torque and horsepower.  Basically two mathematical measurement for the same thing. 

HP = Torque x RPM / 5252

Torque = HP X 5252 / RPM

[jacksonracingcomau]

100bhp/litre was the goal for pushrod engines way back when, achieved pre war.
For an example of people who seriously moved that goalpost, look up Irving Vincent
Pushrod v twin loosely based on 1955 vinny with new guts and motec efi built here in melbourne.
Regularly wins against pre 82 4cyl DOHC bikes with same development and cost

V85 with 80 bhp and pushrods not even close to what they’ve done, I believe claim

Torque spread is the awesome bit, I want one
Def no need for 6 gears here, four should be enough, the thing is nearly electric motor type power.
Bring it on, with suspension to match, weight of v50.

[pete roper]

It’ll definitely be interesting to see how the engine management works. 52mm TB and only single valves are going to be an interesting combination. One assumes idle is going to be spark controlled like the Cali 14’s as I’d think getting throttle plate activation to be sensitive enough to get the idle under 2-2.5k would be damn near impossible!

The problem isn’t the amount of power it produces per-se, it’s what the public perception will be. Quite simply most potential buyers will look at the spec sheet and be so underwhelmed they simply won’t try it. As it is I’m disappointed it’s still a 2V OHV engine as I think a smaller 4V Hi-Cam would be enormous fun. Hopefully that will be down the line somewhere as the heads and rocker gear on the V9 seem to suggest it.

Pete

[Lannis]

On another note, and this is a question to the collective. Do I remember that for some reason all HP and Torque curves cross each other at 5250rpm's for some reason? Or, is that a thing of the past with modern designs?

Don't know if that really matters other than my curiosity.

John Henry

Blame James Watt; it's a consequence of the units we use from horse days.

Horsepower is defined (in terms of torque) as 550 ft�lbs per second.

A single HP is 33,000 pounds moved 1 foot in 1 minute (according to old Watt, that's what an actual horse can do).

One revolution of an engine moving the same 1 lb in one minute (1 RPM) would travel ~6.283ft (the circumference of a 1 foot radius circle).

33,000 / 6.283 (from LowRyter's equation above) = 5252 and there you go.

Lannis

[jacksonracingcomau]

It�ll definitely be interesting to see how the engine management works. 52mm TB and only single valves are going to be an interesting combination. One assumes idle is going to be spark controlled like the Cali 14�s as I�d think getting throttle plate activation to be sensitive enough to get the idle under 2-2.5k would be damn near impossible!

The problem isn�t the amount of power it produces per-se, it�s what the public perception will be. Quite simply most potential buyers will look at the spec sheet and be so underwhelmed they simply won�t try it. As it is I�m disappointed it�s still a 2V OHV engine as I think a smaller 4V Hi-Cam would be enormous fun. Hopefully that will be down the line somewhere as the heads and rocker gear on the V9 seem to suggest it.

Pete

I am a potential buyer, this could bring back other Guzzisti ,don�t think I�ll have trouble convincing my son and mates too. If it ever happens.
To get over hand grenade reputation of recent, they need to build rock solid reliable again.
Another 4v with issues would be a disaster, last 3 goes must have cost a fortune let alone what it has done to reputation.
Others use big tb, don�t think thats reinventing the wheel, sad if it idles high but not end of world, hopefully clever ecu can give really low idle when wheels turning for engine braking, who cares what it does at lights. Can die and restart on green light for all I care. I often do that on hot days anyway.

[pete roper]

I don’t doubt that it could bring back owners who are so shackled to the past and averse to technological developments that they are worried about things like multi valve engines, fuel injection and plastic fuel tanks but most of the world has moved on and it’s ‘Most of the world’ of motorcycling who will make or break the success of the model.

I really hope it’s a great machine and I also really hope you buy one and are happy.

Pete

[jacksonracingcomau]

I don�t doubt that it could bring back owners who are so shackled to the past and averse to technological developments that they are worried about things like multi valve engines, fuel injection and plastic fuel tanks but most of the world has moved on and it�s �Most of the world� of motorcycling who will make or break the success of the model.

I really hope it�s a great machine and I also really hope you buy one and are happy.

Pete

Thanks,
But these people you speak of might see it has efi and very possibly plastic tank.
Don’t know of fear of multi vlave engines, only Guzzi seem to have trouble with that.
Those that moved on to 200 bhp/litre with all the tricks might move back if they sell it right.
One thing will be an issue if they promote this too well before production.
V7 and V9 models sitting on showroom floors may plant roots like the Grisos.
Next year may see very cheap new old bikes (like Grisos now)

[pete roper]

Actually Martin Grisos are holding up reasonably well. It’s 1200 Sport 8V’s that are the absolute bargain. Owners can’t give them away! If I wasn’t knee deep in the 1400 Stelvio nonsense I’d probably buy one simply because they are such a big, comfortable slug of a thing.

The only 8V’s that are actually commanding money are big tank Stelvios, (Boy I wish I could pick up a couple of those cheap!) and 8V Norge’s which over here are as rare as rocking horse shit because they only bought a few in and AFAIK they are all flatties and need rollerising.

Not really any different to any other bike in the current marketplace really. Truth of the matter is nobody much buys second hand ATM.

Pete

[jacksonracingcomau]

Actually Martin Grisos are holding up reasonably well. It�s 1200 Sport 8V�s that are the absolute bargain. Owners can�t give them away! If I wasn�t knee deep in the 1400 Stelvio nonsense I�d probably buy one simply because they are such a big, comfortable slug of a thing.

The only 8V�s that are actually commanding money are big tank Stelvios, (Boy I wish I could pick up a couple of those cheap!) and 8V Norge�s which over here are as rare as rocking horse shit because they only bought a few in and AFAIK they are all flatties and need rollerising.

Not really any different to any other bike in the current marketplace really. Truth of the matter is nobody much buys second hand ATM.

Pete

If I was ambiguous, sorry
Meant new (old) ones
Grisos still on floors, built a while ago, yesterdays news.
If 2008 shops had 2015 model, maybe would be different, but they sold lemons, knowingly.
Reputation is important.

[pete roper]

Griso is far from a ‘Lemon’ but you’ve made your decision and as in all things you are impervious to argument so that’s fine. They’re a lemon, it’s what you want to hear. Believe it if it makes you happy.

Pete

[Chuck in Indiana]

but they sold lemons, knowingly.

Gotta agree. They were still selling the 4Vs when they (must have known) they were a time bomb. If they didn't know.. there was some piss poor engineering involved. Maybe it was bean counter driven?  No matter which, it was a serious hit on their reputation.

[Unkept]

Thanks, as always, Dogwalker for sharing what you've found!

You've been a great resource over the years, always giving us the most accurate first tip on what is coming. :)

I am *surprised* at what was revealed, but it sounds interesting to me. Maybe I should hold the phone and keep my eye out for the V85 after all.

I sure hope it keeps a decent suspension setup.

[Dogwalker]

You are welcome.
About the choice of mantainig the classic pushrods configuration, Cappellini made some considerations that makes sense. That's a very efficient setup. There are very few energy dispersions (only one camshaft to move, no water pump, no high-flow oil pump for an air/oil cooling...) so, to reach those performances with that setup means to consume less.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Thanks, as always, Dogwalker for sharing what you've found!

 :1:

[pete roper]

Gotta agree. They were still selling the 4Vs when they (must have known) they were a time bomb. If they didn't know.. there was some piss poor engineering involved. Maybe it was bean counter driven?  No matter which, it was a serious hit on their reputation.

On that I agree, the fact they continued to sell flat tappet bikes knowing they were going to fail and then tried to wriggle out of their responsibility was unconscionable but as I’ve stated before I believe that the engine was originally designed with roller tappets and the flat tappet option was the result of bean counting, not engineering.

I still maintain that the 8V is a great engine. Flawed? Certainly! What isn’t? But still a superbly enjoyable power plant and used in an outstanding series of bikes.

Pete

[bmp72]

80 HP with 2 valves and pushrods? I think not.

My old LM3 had 76 hp, with basically the same engine size, 2 valves, pushrods etc... Looking at it like they should be ashamed, no progress in 30+ years... though the new one will be hindered more by environmental restrictions...

[Sheepdog]

The large throttle body, beefed up crankcase, improved crankcase ventilation all point to an engine that makes lots of power on top. The titanium valves are an interesting item, also. This makes me wonder if liquid cooling might not be on the horizon...

[JohninVT]

My old LM3 had 76 hp, with basically the same engine size, 2 valves, pushrods etc... Looking at it like they should be ashamed, no progress in 30+ years... though the new one will be hindered more by environmental restrictions...

Your LM3 had 60hp (on a good day) at the wheel.  This will have 65hp and meet the strict new Euro regulations while getting a lot better mpg's and being more reliable.   

[bad Chad]

Indeed.  You old farts need to get real.  HP numbers put out in 70/80s were not anywhere close to accurate.  No 850cc ever left the factory putting down 75hp!  Today, standards are much tighter, you can't completely make numbers up and then blow them out your butt!

[jacksonracingcomau]

You are welcome.
About the choice of mantainig the classic pushrods configuration, Cappellini made some considerations that makes sense. That's a very efficient setup. There are very few energy dispersions (only one camshaft to move, no water pump, no high-flow oil pump for an air/oil cooling...) so, to reach those performances with that setup means to consume less.

:1:

And thanks from me too
Hope complete weight of bike reflects same idiology and they are over fat heavy POS
Might be the V7 sport of the new age, exactly what Tonti did to Carcanos design
Now Cappellini has a go at Tonti’s ....

On that I agree, the fact they continued to sell flat tappet bikes knowing they were going to fail and then tried to wriggle out of their responsibility was unconscionable but as I’ve stated before I believe that the engine was originally designed with roller tappets and the flat tappet option was the result of bean counting, not engineering.

Pete

Glad we got over that, hope factory has too
NO MORE LEMONS

[auzziguzzi]

If you doubt the ability of an aircooled, mid-capacity, 2V, pushrod engine to produce 80 hp, check out this 50 year old Triumph production racer 'Slippery Sam' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_Sam

Engine    Three cylinder, four stroke
Displacement    750 cc
Bore & Stroke    67mm x 70mm
Valvetrain    twin camshaft ohv (pushrod), 2 valve
Compression ratio    
Maximum power    84 bhp (63 kW) at 8,250 rpm
Maximum torque    
Oil system    Dry sump
Cooling system    air cooled
Transmission    Five speed
Drivetrain    Chain
Brakes    Front: twin disc
Rear: single disc
Dry weight    

[LowRyter]

If you doubt the ability of an aircooled, mid-capacity, 2V, pushrod engine to produce 80 hp, check out this 50 year old Triumph production racer 'Slippery Sam' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_Sam

Engine    Three cylinder, four stroke
Displacement    750 cc
Bore & Stroke    67mm x 70mm
Valvetrain    twin camshaft ohv (pushrod), 2 valve
Compression ratio    
Maximum power    84 bhp (63 kW) at 8,250 rpm
Maximum torque    
Oil system    Dry sump
Cooling system    air cooled
Transmission    Five speed
Drivetrain    Chain
Brakes    Front: twin disc
Rear: single disc
Dry weight

3 cyl race engine

[Dogwalker]

Your LM3 had 60hp (on a good day) at the wheel.  This will have 65hp and meet the strict new Euro regulations while getting a lot better mpg's and being more reliable.   

If they had been honest, I expect 72-73 hp at the wheel. The usual loss is around 10%. It's the measured power of a Le Mans 1000, and not far from that of the later V11 models, but hopefully on a much lighter bike than both (and with peak torque at 3400rpm).

[auzziguzzi]

3 cyl race engine

Closer to a 3 cyl production engine that was raced.

Tweaked from 60 HP @ 7250 on the road going Trident to 84 HP @ 8250 for production racing.

[pete roper]

The Slippery Sam effort was the last gasp that sucked the last pennies out of the already chilling cadaver of the NVT conglomerate. No way was it a ‘Normal’, ‘Production’ motorbike.

Making comparisons as Martin does to some extraordinarily developed race bike for a production pushrod twin with two valves per cylinder is quite simply asinine.

Look, while I think the whole project sounds like a disappointing failure in the making I can’t emphasise enough that I really, REALLY, hope I’m wrong. I hope it’s a huge success and they sell squillions of them. Will I buy one? Highly unlikely looking at the spec sheet but I’m at least open to changing my mind, something that many others aren’t.

Pete

[huub]

My old LM3 had 76 hp, with basically the same engine size, 2 valves, pushrods etc... Looking at it like they should be ashamed, no progress in 30+ years... though the new one will be hindered more by environmental restrictions...

your old le mans would be lucky to push out a honest 60 HP,
my V7sport needed bigger carbs to reach 50 rwhp, and that was rated for 72 HP by te guzzi factory.
:-)