Rollerisation of the 8V.

[Vasco DG]

Just to reprise this thread i thought I'd add a few more pics of the actual rocker swap. Its not difficult at all but for those who want to do it themselves it might be useful. This is an 'A' kit motor but the principles are identical on all. Have to go out now but i'll add a bit of blurb later if people think it necessary.

[pauldaytona]

I regard to the spring shims, if you take a look at the parts lists from the stelvio, you can see model 2008(2009 for the ones far from factory) is the only one that does not have shims. the 2009 and later do have shims from Mandello. So shims have nothing to do with the rollers.   
If you took the time looking at parts lists, have you learned more about the shims?

 

[Vasco DG]

Paul, I've looked at the parts lists and the service bulletins, I've looked at them a lot, a real lot.

I think the parts list in and of itself isn't a good guide. Odd though the shim listings are.

What you need to look at, and examine the motivation for, is the marking of the cylinder heads, their relevance to the required upgrade kit.

There are four kits.

The A kit is for the last of the flat tappet bikes with the 'Floating' rocker covers, the heads are shimmed ex-factory, (At least I have to believe they are as the alternative is different springs which aren't listed until 2015MY.)

B Kit is the sort of *Intermediate* kit for bikes produced after the factory had abandoned the idea of getting the flats to work but they started fitting the shims having done the sums on what would be needed for using the heavier roller tappets.

C kit is the full, roll yer shoulders in, we screwed up, kit for early, pre July-ish 2010 bikes which need the heads off for shimming and all the fruit.

D kit is an orphan for 1200 Sport but it seems none of these, even after mid 2010, had shims on the inlet springs! WTF was all that about???

Really, I fear your suggestion that only a few models are 'Shimless' is wrong. It is only a very few models, probably those models of Stelvio that you mention that seem to have the shims. I can screenshot a variety of pages if you wish so people can see for themselves but I'm busy as a dog with three dicks at the moment so I'd prefer not.

BTW I have to email you some stuff WRT Piaggio.

Pete

[boatdetective]

Pete,
I don't have a flat tappet 8V- but I still love your write up. Excellent!

A question- what sort of money is it to buy these kits?   I was wondering as there seem to be 2009 8V Grisos hitting the market and I assume many have not had the work done. I'm the sort who would thoroughly enjoy doing it. However, I don't know if sellers would be willing to buy the kit to sell the bike.

[lucian]

I paid $1400.00 us for my c kit for my 09 griso. Had it in two weeks from somewhat local dealer.

[canuguzzi]

Given the info on the bottom ends now, I can't imagine wanting to buy a dealer upgraded 8V as how many would take the time to clean out all the internals and how would you even begin to inspect for the same?

You buy an upgraded roller bike only to have the bottom go to the farm. Granted not everyone will know but since WG is easily searchable via our friend Google, it isn't a secret.

[molly]

Looks like you can't win with the flat tappet motors unless you have a bike with very early stage damage. How you could convince a well informed punter to buy it from you is another matter.

[Demar]

Looks like you can't win with the flat tappet motors unless you have a bike with very early stage damage. How you could convince a well informed punter to buy it from you is another matter.

The 2012 model year bikes will be a grey area. How will a buyer know for sure it came with factory rollers? VIN numbers maybe, maybe.

[rboe]

Pull the valve covers, by inspection you can tell if they are rollerised.

[Demar]

Pull the valve covers, by inspection you can tell if they are rollerised.

I was talking about resale and how a potential buyer could determine if the 2012 bike came with factory rollers or was rollerised. As a seller I could state that it came with factory rollers when in fact it was a roller conversion after delivery. You can't tell that by looking. Could affect the resale value of 2012 bikes.

[Vasco DG]

Looks like you can't win with the flat tappet motors unless you have a bike with very early stage damage. How you could convince a well informed punter to buy it from you is another matter.

Dave, the fact I've seen three failures doesn't mean that all converted bikes are going to fail. I just mentioned it in the interest of 'full disclosure'. My failure may well of had another cause. As for the other two? They were both 2010 green 'Tenni' models. You could just as logically say all Tenni's are going to fail!

Pete

[MotoG5]

I was talking about resale and how a potential buyer could determine if the 2012 bike came with factory rollers or was rollerised. As a seller I could state that it came with factory rollers when in fact it was a roller conversion after delivery. You can't tell that by looking. Could affect the resale value of 2012 bikes.

The way I see it Demar that horse has already left the barn. What ever affect the tappet issue has had on resale of any pre-2013 8V has pretty much taken place. If you trust the individual you are buying it from and the bike suits you pay the going rate. If you are buying from a stranger or on line then offer a price that reflects the chance you feel you are taking. Or if you are the faint of heart type then best not buy one at all. You gotta be a tough SOB to own one of these babies.     

[Vasco DG]

I just picked up a 2009 Flattie for my mate Dave for $7,800AU which I thought was a fair price. First thing I'll be doing is rollerising it for him, chances are it'll be showing signs of wear so I'll slap in a claim on it. Dave's a builder. The barter system works well between us

Pete

[56Pan]

Pull the valve covers, by inspection you can tell if they are rollerised.

You can't trust the VIN method.  Someone here posted the list of VIN's from MG a while back for the 2012 Norges with rollers.  My 2012 was several numbers too early and should have had flat tappets according to the list.  But I pulled a valve cover and the engine had the roller lifters.  The dealer told me it did, but I trusted them as far as I could spit. Just pull a valve cover.

[lucian]

Pete, after doing a number of roller conversions have you come up with a standard of practice in regards to a flush of the oil cooler or sump? Or is that only dependent on the amount of tappet wear discovered case by case? Does the factory have any expectations in this regard? I did change my oil and filter but did not do anything besides that as I believe I had caught the wear early on. I cant help but wonder about that. I think once the season ends here soon I will drop the sump and scrub it out ,at that point would it make sense to delve any further? Perhaps flush the o.c. or  inspect the shells? I have put another 1,000 miles on the clock post rollerizing and seem to have no issues .  thanks as always, dave   

[Vasco DG]

I wish I knew Dave, I really do.

My current modus operandi is to always drop the sump, it's no more difficult than changing the filter on an old Tonti. If it looks OK and I've only seen early wear then I just clean it out, do another oil change after a couple of hours work and call it quits. If the tappets are dished with no remaining DLC and wear is extensive I'll pull the cooler and lines and back-flush the lot.

The biggest question though is going to be has the pump been damaged? On Mak S's bike when it did its big ends I was in an adage over whether to replace the pump but in the end opted to do so simply because it was a comaratively small addition to the overall cost of the rebuild.

The choice is of course yours but in your circumstances I'd drop the sump and have a look. If you have time on your hands drop the spacer (AND EXAMINE THE GASKET AROUND THE FEED GALLERIES AS THESE HAVE BEEN KNOWN TO BLOW OUT!) and drop the rod caps and examine the shells. The shells are cheap. The bolts not so much! But if your shells haven't failed then there will be no need to strip the motor to close and grind the rods and linished the crank. What causes the bad damage is excess clearance causing rod hammer, that will ovalised the big ends and after that it's all over red rover as the oil can no longer wedge properly.

Pete

[Wayne Orwig]

Kit C is in.

[rboe]

After an inspection and photo's sent to the Mothership, my bike has been approved for rollerization. Waiting for the bits to show. A bit over 10K miles, 2012.

[Vasco DG]

MAKE ABSOLUTELY SURE YOU CLEAN THE SUMP THOROUGHLY! IF YOUR TAPPETS ARE MORE THAN A TINY BIT WORN I STRONGLY SUGGEST BACK FLUSHING THE COOLER AND INSPECTING THE OIL PUMP. PULLED THE ROD CAPS ON RALF'S BIKE THIS MORNING. DEAD AS THE PROVERBIAL DOORNAIL.

Pete

[lucian]

Hear you loud and clear Pete,thanks for the heads up.I just got my gaskets for the sump and spacer and will soon be doing as you suggest. What is the easiest way to flush the o.c. without any specialized apparatus? Also will I need further gaskets to inspect the oil pumps? I suppose I should also order new rod bolts and mains no? Tanks  dave

[Wayne Orwig]

MAKE ABSOLUTELY SURE YOU CLEAN THE SUMP THOROUGHLY! IF YOUR TAPPETS ARE MORE THAN A TINY BIT WORN I STRONGLY SUGGEST BACK FLUSHING THE COOLER AND INSPECTING THE OIL PUMP. PULLED THE ROD CAPS ON RALF'S BIKE THIS MORNING. DEAD AS THE PROVERBIAL DOORNAIL.

Sad news.
And next are the front and rear main bearings.

[canuguzzi]

Sad news.
And next are the front and rear main bearings.

Pretty unbelievable for the bikes with what amounts to one summer riding season and you're into rebuilding the engine. Downright shameful. Not the budget model line, but supposedly top of the line.

Brand damaging. Couldn't give me a 2012. Even with the fix, unless you know for a fact it was done right and other things checked, its no better than it was before, just other things to go wrong.

One reason there are likely a lot of one time only MG riders.

[Vasco DG]

Sad news.
And next are the front and rear main bearings.

And the front is integral to the case and supposedly requires replacement of said case. Bollocks to that. A 'Push in and pin' solution will be achieved if needed but on Mark's bike the damage was, surprisingly, limited to the big ends. I'm hoping that Ralf's likewise will require nothing more than a linish of the crankpin, (Where the hell did Franklin come from?) and closing and grinding the rods coupled with a thorough clean out.

What shits me is the factory must know the risks. They have obviously done the sums and hung a certain number of their customers out to dry, presumably they are acceptable 'Collateral Damage'. The word I'd usually use to describe such conduct would probably get me moderated into oblivion so I'll just shut up and grind my teeth.

Pete

[oldbike54]

 In this case Pete , we would probably cut you some slack , however thanks for not saying it 

  Dusty

[Aaron D.]

I wonder if it is the carbon, not the metal doing the damage. The carbon would be a little bit of lapping compound. I would think the filter would have done a better job.

[MotoG5]

I wonder if it is the carbon, not the metal doing the damage. The carbon would be a little bit of lapping compound. I would think the filter would have done a better job.

First I am NOT disputing anything Pete has suggested be done and will be following his suggestions pretty much to the letter concerning my rollerized 12' NTX. But some more discussion on the bottom end damage issue could be enlightening. If as Aaron is saying the damage is being caused by the dlc (in my bike no metal wear was present on the tappets, just missing dlc) and the oil filter is not, for what ever reason, catching it. Why haven't we seen bikes like mine at 10k plus miles with big end failures? Obviously dlc has been running around in my engine for some time before I did the inspection and change at 16k miles. I  am now as I said going to look any way but what do those looking at this think?
 

[Vasco DG]

At the moment I'm just reporting what I'm finding. I have no categorical 'Smoking gun' that can be isolated and held up as a definitive cause. All I'm trying to do is save other people the expense and heartbreak of going through a similar experience.

There is definite particulate damage, there are also signs of oil starvation. In Ralf's case the failure was sudden, with both Mark's and mine it was gradual and got increasingly more and more noticeable that something was awry until the knocking confirmed my fears.

On a healthy engine once rollerised they tend to be significantly quieter than a Flattie. The roller tappets make a distinctive 'Whickering' sound. On all three of the bikes that have failed, if my memory serves me correctly, they remained noisy. Also notable was, with hindsight, how much the engine's performance was impaired. In my case my bike would still wheelie like a bastard when provoked but it also let you know it was working hard. With the new engine everything is much smoother and more linear, there must of been some substantial frictional losses occurring before it became terminal. While picking this sort of stuff up is going to be very subjective the only way one can build up a 'Library' of data is be experience and this is something that I am, unfortunately, doing right now.

As I've said before while I think owners have been treated very shabbily on this, especially those who bought bikes between mid 2010 and mid 2012, rollerising BEFORE failure is much more likely to have a positive outcome than waiting for things to go tits up.

Pete

[MotoG5]

Pretty unbelievable for the bikes with what amounts to one summer riding season and you're into rebuilding the engine. Downright shameful. Not the budget model line, but supposedly top of the line.

Brand damaging. Couldn't give me a 2012. Even with the fix, unless you know for a fact it was done right and other things checked, its no better than it was before, just other things to go wrong.

One reason there are likely a lot of one time only MG riders.

OK NP,
I was going to give you my rollerized 2012' just to be rid of the headaches but not now. Guess I will just have to keep it and fix the darn thing. 

[Vasco DG]

I suggest you just insure it well and burn it........



















NOT, 

Pete

[Larry]

I suggest you just insure it well and burn it........



















NOT, 

Pete

mmm. mine is