VW, now THAT is a major problem.

[Penderic]

They coulda cop'd a better deal had they better lawyers and lobbyists.

 

[ITSec]

"Not for use on any street vehicle" , wink wink 

  Dusty

It's called 'plausible deniability"!  Now, who came up with that term? 

[canuguzzi]

They coulda cop'd a better deal had they better lawyers and lobbyists.

 

Frickin hilarious, almost fell out if my chair!

[Lannis]

The difference with VW is that there was conspiracy, collusion or both, of the criminal type. When you load up a new map, that is likely in violation of federal law, same with the cat y pipe replacement s. However, you aren't doing it to make money by bypassing emissions regulations nor decieve the consumer. There is no real comparison here.

This is just starting, it isn't a matter of fixing the emissions controls. There are tax incentives, the mpg and emissions averages of their entire model lines, fraud and the list goes on and on. Years ago this might have been a fix, pay fine and forget it. Not these days. Now we're talking many billions of dollars, just in the US market.

Lots of VW owners are cult buyers too, like those buying Subaru's and so on. What the dedicated VW diesel owners say won't matter much and probably won't matter at all, this is way past what the guy down the street thinks or wants. Blood in the water.

This should, though, have a bit of impact on people's view of "unfettered capitialism".   

You just named a bunch of tight, expensive fetters on VW's profit motive!!

Sort of like we don't hear much about obscene oil profiteers when gasoline is $1.89 a gallon ... !

Lannis

[oldbike54]

The difference with VW is that there was conspiracy, collusion or both, of the criminal type. When you load up a new map, that is likely in violation of federal law, same with the cat y pipe replacement s. However, you aren't doing it to make money by bypassing emissions regulations nor decieve the consumer. There is no real comparison here.

This is just starting, it isn't a matter of fixing the emissions controls. There are tax incentives, the mpg and emissions averages of their entire model lines, fraud and the list goes on and on. Years ago this might have been a fix, pay fine and forget it. Not these days. Now we're talking many billions of dollars, just in the US market.

Lots of VW owners are cult buyers too, like those buying Subaru's and so on. What the dedicated VW diesel owners say won't matter much and probably won't matter at all, this is way past what the guy down the street thinks or wants. Blood in the water.

 The loyalists won't run away in droves is my point .

 An old boss , when caught poring used oil on the ground stated , "Well hell , if they would just stop all of those big corporate polluters , us little guys could dump all of our oil on the ground" . Seems appropriate here .

  Dusty

[not-fishing]

They coulda cop'd a better deal had they better lawyers and lobbyists.

 

Yeah they needed to hire Heuy, Loui and Dewey.

They could also hire these guys for their coming defense:

Defense Attorney     Justin Volk V
Defense Attorney II     Heronimus B. Blind
Defense Attorney III      Donnatella Dicoppas
Defense Attorney IV    Gil T. Azell

On a side note, I'm looking to pick up some VW stock really cheap.......

[canuguzzi]

No doubt the cubicle workers have been assigned this project and the dirty laundry pile will only get bigger. Then in all fairness, those with ambition are looking into what other diesel car makers are doing.

The airbag thing was at first limited and then crossed manufacturer lines. The pressures to see who else might have done this must be immense. Then there are the little birds.

We can only hope that as a result, those concerned don't start looking at bikes as right now they aren't smog tested. That could be a game changer and these things have a way of being the catalyst for them.

[canuguzzi]

VW stock is a falling knife right now.

[oldbike54]

 Since when aren't MCs tested for emissions ?

  Dusty

[Lannis]

Since when aren't MCs tested for emissions ?

  Dusty

I mean after we buy them.   It's illegal for me to modify my engine so that it no longer meets the original emissions standards, whether it's a car or motorcycle.

But all of us do it anyway.   And unless you live in a county or city that requires an emissions test at inspection sticker time, no one is going to know ...

Lannis

[oldbike54]

I mean after we buy them.   It's illegal for me to modify my engine so that it no longer meets the original emissions standards, whether it's a car or motorcycle.

But all of us do it anyway.   And unless you live in a county or city that requires an emissions test at inspection sticker time, no one is going to know ...

Lannis

 Yeah , seems as though even Cal ee fornia has stopped testing MCs post sale . It's weird , I tend to leave my bikes stock other than maybe a handling mod or two . Of course , don't own anything new ...
 
  Dusty

[PJPR01]

If only Car Talk were still alive, they'd have a field day with this one!  Considering the Tappet threads here, the Tappet Brothers might be laughing themselves silly!

Back on topic:  Still no reply from the local VW dealer email from last night...curious, just curious how long it's going to take them to come up with a response.  I might just have to roll on down there this afternoon to inquire discretely about a Diesel veee - hick - elllll.  :)

[pauldaytona]

I keep the feeling they all do it more or less.

BTW: BMW makes very fine diesels. The 3.0 litr is powerfull and quiet.

[acogoff]

     After causing the Colorado toxic waste release fiasco, the EPA is grabbing on to this with both hands as an ass covering/ deflection maneuver.  I wish VW well. I like that little diesel.

[sib]

I mean after we buy them.   It's illegal for me to modify my engine so that it no longer meets the original emissions standards, whether it's a car or motorcycle.

But all of us do it anyway.   And unless you live in a county or city that requires an emissions test at inspection sticker time, no one is going to know ...

Lannis

Not quite all of us.  I see no reason to deliberately disable emission controls on either my cars or motorcycles.

[sib]

Yeah , but so far no deaths have been linked to the VW debacle .

  Dusty

Not directly linked, but in the aggregate, pollution kills.

[sib]

It's called 'plausible deniability"!  Now, who came up with that term? 

I believe that term was invented, or at least popularized, during the Reagan administration, referring to attempts to cover up whether the Chief knew about the Iran/contra deal (of course he did).

[Lannis]

Not quite all of us.  I see no reason to deliberately disable emission controls on either my cars or motorcycles.

"All" was a bit too inclusive, then.    I'm sure I've probably turned a painted screw somewhere, or slipped on a nice quiet muffler, without inquiring too closely as to whether it was completely legal or not ....

Lannis

[ITSec]

I believe that term was invented, or at least popularized, during the Reagan administration, referring to attempts to cover up whether the Chief knew about the Iran/contra deal (of course he did).

Actually, it was first used all the way back in Truman's time (shortly after their creation as an organization, I expect). It became known outside classified documents during the Kennedy administration.

I have a sneaky suspicion it was first conceived to handle a situation when a Cro-Magnon stole his buddy's haunch of meat!

[Railroad Bob]

I keep the feeling they all do it more or less.

BTW: BMW makes very fine diesels. The 3.0 litr is powerfull and quiet.

Thanks Paul.  I'm following the Vee Dub story pretty closely, as I've been a diesel car devotee for many years.  All BMW.
The first one was a 335d 1st gen, which as the miles added up usually led to a head removal for professional cleaning; I think
they used blasted walnuts shells.  I got rid of that car right before it was probably going to need the head cleaning. Current ride
is a leased 535d M-sport, the best car I've ever driven.  It's so good, we are probably going to buy it outright after the Lease
runs its course.  You're so right about that 3.0 liter; it's got 3 settings (Eco Pro, Comfort and Sport) which gives a nice choice
of running modes.  You can opt for better mileage or better performance in the same car, sweet.  So far, BMW hasn't been
tainted with the VW diesel disaster.   

[oldbike54]

Not directly linked, but in the aggregate, pollution kills.

 Complete agreement on that .


 

Actually, it was first used all the way back in Truman's time (shortly after their creation as an organization, I expect). It became known outside classified documents during the Kennedy administration.

I have a sneaky suspicion it was first conceived to handle a situation when a Cro-Magnon stole his buddy's haunch of meat!

 "Agg , why you steal Ugh's mastodon leg ?" "No steal , only borrow , give it back when done ." Why everybody always pick on poor old Agg?"

  Dusty

[jas67]

 Awwwwwww damnit , Lannis is right  My guess is that VW will deal with this now that they have been outed , doubt if it will take them down . Talked to a friend this morning that has been driving VW diesels since '89 , now has a 2014 model . He just shrugged and indicated he would have the recall done and doubted the slight performance loss would be noticeable .

  Dusty

I doubt that there will be any performance loss.     But, I'll bet there is a fuel economy loss on the order of 20% or more.    The main reason that I bought two TDI's was the fuel economy.   I could've got hybrids, but, both my wife & I wanted manual transmissions, VW was the only high fuel economy option there, and VW was one of the few with a wagon with a manual transmission.

If we lose 20% of our fuel economy, coupled with the higher cost of diesel fuel, we paid for more our cars for zero, if not negative advantage.

AND, with that loss of fuel economy, resale value will be significantly hurt too.   

[jas67]

Jay , I'm not savvy enough to understand all of this . Why do you state that fuel economy will suffer ? Help out a layman here.

  Dusty

Dusty, refer to reply #7 on page #1 of this thread, I explained it there.

[Railroad Bob]

If we lose 20% of our fuel economy, coupled with the higher cost of diesel fuel, we paid for more our cars for zero, if not negative advantage.

[/quote]

?  I know fuel prices vary wildly all over the place, but in my area (So Cal) Diesel is the cheapest fuel on the board.  But a year or more ago, yeah, it was the highest by far.  That stuff really fluctuates, eh?

[Mark West]

I see a big difference here between the issues with GM or Toyota and this issue with VW.

Having been involved with manufacturing products for close to 30 years I have sympathy with companies trying to figure out when/if to recall a product that, in reality, has a failure rate that is so small that it would never be noticed if they didn't sell millions of vehicles.

No component is perfect. some fail on occasion. If you sell 3 million cars and have couple hundred failures, it's a failure rate of 0.000066%. As these failures occur it's hard to tell when a problem goes from random component failure to systemic problem. Even when an engineer points out a potential weakness in a component, there will likely be other engineers who disagree and it's bound to take some time before a company issues a recall that is going to cost big $$$$. Compare that to things that Guzzi has experienced, such as hydro valve failures, etc. Those failure rates were hundreds of times greater but still took a fair amount of time to recognize and more time for fixes to be found and action to be taken.

I'm not excusing GM entirely but am somewhat sympathetic to a company not immediately reacting to something with an incredibly small rate of failure.

On the other hand, we have VW, who knowingly created software to get around emissions requirements. They knew what they were doing was illegal and unethical and they did it and kept on doing it year after year.

If the cars performance is reduced as a result of the software fix, I expect they'll be a major class action suit. If you bought a car based on a level of performance that was only possible due to illegal software, I would think that would make a good case and VW deserves whatever they get.

[rodekyll]

I mean after we buy them.   It's illegal for me to modify my engine so that it no longer meets the original emissions standards, whether it's a car or motorcycle.

But all of us do it anyway.   And unless you live in a county or city that requires an emissions test at inspection sticker time, no one is going to know ...

Lannis

No, we don't ALL do it anyway.  Don't paint me with your brush!

[jas67]

If the cars performance is reduced as a result of the software fix, I expect they'll be a major class action suit. If you bought a car based on a level of performance that was only possible due to illegal software, I would think that would make a good case and VW deserves whatever they get.

I suspect this will happen, but, as class action suits go, the amount paid out to each car owner will be a pittance compared to the reduction in resale value of the car, and the increased operating costs over the life of the car.   

The only true winners of a class action suit will be the lawyers.

[rocker59]

On the other hand, we have VW, who knowingly created software to get around emissions requirements. They knew what they were doing was illegal and unethical and they did it and kept on doing it year after year.
 

My money says that if VW is doing it, other carmakers are doing it.  It's just a few lines of code. 

With the ever stricter goals of the EPA, there has to be more than a couple of VW tech geeks who have thought of this work-around.

[Lannis]

No, we don't ALL do it anyway.  Don't paint me with your brush!

I already retracted the "ALL" in several posts up above, after sib said he had never done it either ..... But of course, you have to read the posts to see it ....

Lannis

[LowRyter]

This should, though, have a bit of impact on people's view of "unfettered capitialism".   

You just named a bunch of tight, expensive fetters on VW's profit motive!!

Sort of like we don't hear much about obscene oil profiteers when gasoline is $1.89 a gallon ... !

Lannis

speaking of unfettered, look at this guy.

He bought a company that sold critical meds for $13 and raised the price to $750.

sorta a pencil neck.


Hedge fund manager Martin Shkreli is 32 years old but he’s acting half that age on Twitter today after news broke that his company, Turing Pharmaceuticals, had raised the price of the life-saving drug Daraprim from $13.50 to $750 per pill.

Daraprim is used to treat toxoplasmosis, a condition caused by a parasite that exists in nearly a quarter of the U.S. population over age 12, but which can prove deadly for the unborn children of pregnant women and for immunocompromised individuals like AIDS patients. These vulnerable populations will now have to pay over 5,000 percent more for their treatment.




http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/09/21/martin-shkreli-is-big-pharma-s-biggest-asshole.html