2003 Lemans Rosso vs. 2005 Norge

[MGPilot]

Have been trying to compare the two as possible stable mates for my V7II.

Both have bar risers. The Lemans (hate stupid autocorrect that thinks it knows better....) has a windscreen extension and lowered foot pegs, the stock Ohlins forks/shocks, and a box of parts that should let me return it to stock if I want.

My guess is that the Lemans would have a slightly stiffer suspension...but would have a bit lighter handling on a winding road. I'm not planning multi-week road trips, so extensive luggage isn't crucial. I have a pair of C-Bow side bags now. Could probably add the C-Bow frame to the Lemans if I feel driven to do so.

- Given the Norge without bags mounted, would it handle noticeably different than the  Lemans?
- Would you expect any significant difference in parts availability or reliability?
- Was reading on V11 blog where the guy was getting around 25mpg. Is that what you'd expect?  (My 2 ton, supercharged Audi does better than that.)
- Any other reasons why you'd prefer one over the other?

Thanks.

[rocker59]

Apples and Oranges.

The Norge is a touring bike.  Or, if you like, a heavy sport-TOURING bike.  Removing the empty bags from the Norge will make little difference in how the bike handles.

The V11 LeMans is decended from the spine frame endurance racers of the late 1980s. Much sportier.  A SPORT-touring bike.

You can get H+B bag mounts for the V11 LeMans.  I have toured all over the country on the one I used to own.  Now, ratguzzi tours the country on the bike.

The Ohlins suspension is very adjustable and very compliant.  It can be firm or soft.  Depends upon how YOU set it up.  It's the nicest suspension you'll find on a Guzzi.

The seating is a little more cramped on the V11, but the bike is much lighter than the Norge, and handles much better.

You'll either like one or the other.  I know which one I'd prefer.

[Rotten Ralph]

I've owned both and what Rocker said is true. The Norge is a touring bike that handles well but the Rosso is the bike for the Dragon.
That said, I have done some extensive touring on the Rosso - but it's not as comfortable Norge in that respect.

[MGPilot]

I'm leaning toward the LeMans but want to make sure I'm not missing something obvious (at least to others more knowledgeable than myself).

[MGPilot]

I've owned both and what Rocker said is true. The Norge is a touring bike that handles well but the Rosso is the bike for the Dragon.
That said, I have done some extensive touring on the Rosso - but it's not as comfortable Norge in that respect.

What kind of fuel mileage did you see from yours?

[Nick]

MG,
you should ride both before you decide. I have a 2007 Norge and a 2004 V11 Coppa Italia. I disagree with R59 and feel that the Norge when fitted with the proper suspension is a better sport tourer then the V11. As far as being heavy, after you add bags on the V11 it will weight almost as much as the Norge.   

[Scud]

Biased opinion alert!

I really like the V11s and the Rosso Corsa is one of the best. My Scura has Ohlins (great per above) and my LeMans has the better fairing for wind protection. Rosso gives you both.

I get low 30s (short commute) to low 40s (spirited touring with minimal stops) on both V11s. 25 MPG sounds like something is wrong - or somebody is riding really hard.

I have no experience with the Norge... but the V11s do whatever I ask, including some weekend tours and 500+ mile days.

Oh - and can I just add - they are the most fun of any bike I've had.

[rocker59]

What kind of fuel mileage did you see from yours?

My bike returned 35 mpg 2-up and pulling a 250 lbs trailer.

Solo, it would return 38 mpg like clockwork.  This is at 500 - 3000 feet altitude.

At over 5000 feet altitude, the bike would return 40s.

[MGPilot]

...you should ride both before you decide.

As always, good advice.

One of my underlying questions (being a suspicious creature) was whether the two bikes really handled that much differently or were they (as much as anything) a form factor (packaging) difference?  More than one manufacturer takes essentially the same product and modifies it primarily through styling to create different models.  That's not bad or cheating....just like to know what I'm spending my money on.  Clearly, luggage affects handling - talking about the underlying machine.

[rocker59]

MG,
you should ride both before you decide. I have a 2007 Norge and a 2004 V11 Coppa Italia. I disagree with R59 and and feel that the Norge when fitted with the proper suspension is a better sport tourer then the V11.

"Better"?  at what?  in what ways?

As far as being heavy, after you add bags on the V11 it will weight almost as much as the Norge.   

There is more than 50 lbs difference in the two bikes.  Probably close to 100 lbs.  And, for some reason, you really "feel it" on the Norge.

[Chuck in Indiana]

As always, good advice.

One of my underlying questions (being a suspicious creature) was whether the two bikes really handled that much differently or were they (as much as anything) a form factor (packaging) difference?  More than one manufacturer takes essentially the same product and modifies it primarily through styling to create different models.  That's not bad or cheating....just like to know what I'm spending my money on.  Clearly, luggage affects handling - talking about the underlying machine.

I've had a Norge, and two sporty LeMans. Norge handling isn't in the same league as an Ohlins (or even Zook suspended) V11s. They are *not* the same machine with a different set of clothes. Depends on what you want. The Norge is much more comfortable on a trip. The V11 is a ton of fun in the twistys.
Nick makes a good point, though. Be prepared to spend some suspension coin on a Norge if you want it to handle. Even at that, the Norge just feels top heavy to me. Mine went away.

[Scud]

V11 Rosso Corsa is prettier.  There.  Settled.  You know what to do...

As for clothes - the V11 even looks good naked.

[Nick]

"Better"?  at what?  in what ways?


There is more than 50 lbs difference in the two bikes.  Probably close to 100 lbs.  And, for some reason, you really "feel it" on the Norge.

More "flickable". Better mileage. More comfortable. Better weather protection. Better brakes.
V11 226 kg, Norge 245 kg.

[Nick]

MG, here is a review by Mile High Guzzi done a few years ago, 1200s (basically a Norge w/o a fairing) and V11 sport. Just another perspective. Hope it helps you in your decision.....

Nearing the end of long-day riding season here in Colorado, so I finally had a little time for a belated comparison post:

As they say, "your mileage may vary", but here is my comparison (with pics) of the two Guzzi's I own.  I may update this over time, but here is the first cut.  But first, a caveat, I am NOT a Guzzi historian.....I first "pined" for a Guzzi in the late 90's...when a green V11 Sport caught my eye, but didn't own my first Guzzi until just a few years ago, and now I own two...a 2003 V11 Lemans Rosso Corsa and a 2008 1200 Sport.  They are not really bikes most would normally cross-shop, but of course since the Guzzi market is so thin, hardy anyone shops a Guzzi at all, so what the hell...here goes.........

Overview:

In relative terms, both my Guzzi's are "newer"....one a 2003 and the other 2008...one a spine frame, and the other a CARC model.....one built during the Aprilia ownership years, one during the Piaggio ownership years.  While there are Guzzis much older than mine, and now ones that are newer, the difference between my two bikes still makes me feel like I have one older Guzzi and one newer Guzzi.

Engine/Power: Tie

Powerwise, there isn't allot of power difference between the two.  I have not put these bikes on a dyno, but my butt-dyno suggests my breathed-on (Guzzi-Tech air/fuel/pipe) 1200 makes a little more power across the band, but my V11 has plenty and winds really nice.  Either probably makes only mid 70's to 80 rwhp, so who cares, these are Guzzi's after all and either have plenty of power (and torque) to thrust through the twisties.  Both of these bikes are of the 2V era, and while the newer 8V Guzzis make more power, I can't imagine more hp would make my rides on either of these bikes more enjoyable.....I own / have owned bikes that puts down much more power than any 8V Guzzi, so its not that I don't appreciate power.  Sound-wise, I give the edge to the stereo sound twin-carbon (M4) V11 versus the mono-(Guzzi-Tech Leo Vince) 1200 Sport, but both sound like butter.

Handling/Suspension:  Advantage V11 Lemans

OK, so mine is a Rosso Corsa version of the V11 Lemans, which has the high quality Ohlins suspension which isn't really fair to compare against the stock Marzocchi forks/shock on the 1200 Sport, but that said, I suspect a regular V11 Lemans is still going to handle better than a 1200 Sport due to overall chassis geometry/lower center of gravity.  While both bikes weigh within about 5 lbs of each other per the spec sheets, the V11 carries its weight lower in a more traditional sport-bike geometry, whereas the 1200 Sport is a taller more relaxed bike, more akin to a naked sport touring bike.  However, both handle very well for anything you are going to do off a race-track, so I say, while I can ride the V11 faster, I can ride the 1200 Sport fast longer.  For all-around riding, the 1200 Sport is more compliant and comfortable.

Ergonomics:  Advantage 1200 Sport

The 1200 Sport shares the basic platform with other Breva/Norge variants, and is a very comfortable and versatile platform.  With a tubular bar, its easy to choose your stance, plus the saddle and suspension is good for day-long comfort.  The V11 Lemans is more traditional sport-bike with clip-on bars, long reach and short saddle to peg distance.  I find the V11 comfortable as sport stances go, but I find myself grabbing the keys to the most comfortable bike more often, and that is the 1200 Sport.

Versatility/Practicality:  Advantage 1200 Sport

Based upon the Norge platform, the 1200 Sport has/can add factory hard luggage, tail racks/packs, heated grips, 6 gallon fuel tank, trip computer, etc. combined with more comfortable upright ergos make it more practical for more uses than the V11 Lemans.  The V11 has more committed ergos, that are in their element on shorter rides in curvy terrain.  Yes, you can commute or tour on a V11, but it is not the bike's natural element.  One other point, the 1200 Sport gets much better gas mileage....low 50's here in the thin air of Colorado, while the V11 gets just high thirties and the odd 40 every now and then.

Visual Appeal:  Advantage V11 Lemans

This is obviously subjective, but the V11 is more eye candy to me than the 1200 Sport.  The V11 has a more classic sport bike proportions to it, and the Rosso Corsa paint scheme is beautiful.  The 1200 Sport is more brutish in appearance, but is very unique to what you see on the road.  Interestingly, I get more questions about the 1200 Sport, perhaps because as a "standard" it doesn't look like either a "Harley" or a "Crotch Rocket", whereas the V11 look similar to other sport bikes if you don't know motorcycles at all.

Conclusion:  Both very nice bikes, not that comparable

If I could have only one bike, the 1200 Sport could do almost anything you wanted, you could commute on it, ride it down rough dirt roads, do sport rides in the curves, or take it touring across country.  It's that good and versatile.  By being a jack-of-all-trades, it will never beat more purpose mission bikes in any of those categories.  The V11 Lemans, while not comparable to a modern sport bike, is none-the-less a more sporting experience as compared to the 1200 Sport, and as such is more involving to ride in attack mode on curvy roads.  It lacks the versatility, and modern amenities of the 1200 Sport, but manages to be more mechanical and visceral in riding experience.  I would have more fun on a date with the V11, but the 1200 Sport I could take home to mom.  Hopefully, I will be able to keep both as long as I can.

[canuguzzi]

The Norge is top heavy, quite a bit when fully fueled. At speed not so noticeable but in slower or tighter corners you know it.

[nobleswood]

Good review there Nick.

I've had my V11 sport, now with bikini fairing, for 2 1/2 years & for me the love affair is only getting better & better.
So my biased opinion is V11 LeMans

[rocker59]

More "flickable". Better mileage. More comfortable. Better weather protection. Better brakes.
 

More flickable?  The Norge.  I have not gotten that impression in my rides on Norges.

My impression vs. my V11 Nero Corsa was that the Norge was heavier, top heavy, cumbersome, cushy, and a nice "touring bike".  I'm sure knocking out some of the long cross-country rides I've made over the years would've been more comfortable on a Norge, but I think I'd have given up a lot of "fun" when the going got curvy. 

I did ride a Norge over Monarch Pass, in Colorado, at a spirited pace.  I've also ridden one in flat country.  They're nice machines, but I think I'd choose a Stelvio over a Norge, if buying a heavy touring-oriented machine. 

I'll give you "more comfortable" and "better weather protection".  A touring bike should.

Brakes?  Are they not the same parts on both bikes?  Regardless, Brembos are infinitely upgradeable for those who "need more".

[blackcat]

Well, a 2015 Norge is going to have more HP and better suspension than previous years. I owned a 2003 Rosso and I still have my 2007 Norge with upgraded suspension and on the same roads the Rosso could handle curves way better than the Norge.

If I had to do it again I would have kept the Rosso, installed some risers and HB bags and not bothered with the Norge.

Do you have a Rosso seller or is this something you're hoping to buy?

[Nick]

Michael,
You stated your opinion. I did not say that you were wrong, I just don't agree with it.
And again, based on my experience with both bikes, I feel that my Norge, as I have equipped it, is a better sport touring motorcycle then my V11.
The V11 is a very nice Sunday bike, the Norge is a very good weekend bike.
Nick

[rocker59]

Michael,
You stated your opinion. I did not say that you were wrong, I just don't agree with it.
And again, based on my experience with both bikes, I feel that my Norge, as I have equipped it, is a better sport touring motorcycle then my V11.
The V11 is a very nice Sunday bike, the Norge is a very good weekend bike.
Nick

And your opinion is equally valuable.  Just discussing differing viewpoints.  Not meant to be argumentative.

I don't want to sound like I'm totally dissing the Norge.  It's a fine motorcycle.  Just didn't work for me.

Damn.  This thread has me day dreaming of my Nero Corsa!!!  LOL!!!

[Bill Hagan]

V11 Rosso Corsa is prettier. 

****

Love my Norge, but think the RC is the best-looking Guzzi ever.



That said, inasmuch as Nick and Rocker have kissed and made up, and others have raised most other relevant points, I should leave it there.

Nah.  Can't do that.   

Not sure how relevant this is to the OP, but one thing I did not see mentioned was two-up riding.  Granted, I "only" had a Ballabio, but it was up-gunned with an Ohlins rear, so it was no slouch to ride.  But my pillion never wanted any part of it (or, FTM, now the Griso) for anything more than a brief romp.  OTOH, she loves the Norge.

Another issue for me is reading about the LeMans series being more "flickable" than the Norge.

With near clip-ons and that wheelbase?  Surely you jest?  In my mind, the concept of flickable and pushing hard to make turns beyond big sweepers "does not compute."

Not knocking the V11's; loved mine and lust after a RC, but my Norge feels eminently more entertaining on all backroads than did my Ballabio (well, except for that basso profundo sound!  ).

But, the only way the OP will ever know is to ride ;em both ... better, just buy 'em both and give us a long-term review down the (many) roads.

Bill

P.S.  No one has mentioned this, but I did not think there were Norges sold, even in Italy, as model year 2005?

[jdgretz]

In my mind it gets down to Sport-touring vs. sport-Touring.  The Norge is the latter.  I've never had a V11, nor have I ridden one as it just isn't what I want in a motorcycle.  For me, the Norge fits about 85% of the riding I do or want to do.  The other 15% is off-road (gravel, dirt - not single track or riding the back roads of Peru) and 2-up freeway cross country stuff (think I-10 from LA to the Atlantic Ocean).

My wife loves ridding pillion on the Norge - more so now that I have the Cal-Sci tall windshield in place.

For those who came in late, my '07 has $1k of suspension upgrades that allow it to handle much better than I want to push it.  If I trust the bike and there isn't a bunch of sand in the middle of a blind curve (my bad  ) the bike will handle it.  I spend a good part of my riding in the hills around SoCal and the difference between me any the really fast folks is rider ability, not the limitations of the bike.

As for top heavy.  Compared to what?  You want top heavy?  Try a Kawasaki C-10 Concours with a full gas tank.  THAT is top heavy.  I can do all the low speed parking lot stuff quite nicely, thank you.  Not as well as the folks who do it for a living, but I don't get outside the box on the U-Turn or figure-8 drills any more.

With an upgraded seat and Heli-bars I can now do several back to back 600 mile days with no problem.  With the stock setup, after about the third 500 mile day, my butt was dragging.  No longer (unsolicited plug for Bill Mayer Saddles).

The more sporty riding position is uncomfortable for me.  The numbers from cycle-ergo are:

Bike	Forward Lean	Knees	Hips
V11	26*	76*	74*
Norge	9*	77*	81*

Of course what feels good to you is what is right for you.

I think the 2006 Norge was the first one sold in Europe and 2007 for the states, but I could be wrong on that.  I know there was no 2005 on either side of the pond.

jdg

[Matteo]

Norge 1200GT, Gran Tourismo. For the long haul in comfort. Not ST, Sport Tour.
My 2 lire for today.

[Gliderjohn]

I have a 2011 Norge which as I understand probably handles bit better than the older ones. Being a flatlander I rarely get a chance to challenge the handling of the Norge. Yesterday I had the pleasure of riding the Talimina drive along with a few other roads that Dusty took us on. One short stretch was a series of one right after the other significant turns that you take in the 20-40 mph range. The Norge shines on sweepers and does well on moderate curves. The short "technical" section we were on the Norge did fine but you had to work pretty hard, not flickable at those speeds by any means but it would turn a nice line if you really pressed the bars when needed. My only experience on a V11 was a short test ride so I cannot really compare.
GliderJohn

[Rotten Ralph]

Have had an 1100 Sport, then a Rosso, next a Norge and now a V7. Each was great at the time and stage of life. Each has good and bad points.

If you're more into sport touring than just touring - go for the Rosso!

[MGPilot]

Weather permitting (and assuming it hasn't found another home), will ride the Rosso on Tuesday and see if it speaks to me.

I've already enjoyed my V7 II more than the BMW's I owned.   Note that for me, in Seattle, where the bikes will sit as I limit my riding to better weather, having multiple bikes makes less sense for me as they compete for the same number of limited good riding days.

Will see if the Rosso brings enough to justify the extra ownership expenses, garage space, etc.  It's also getting old enough that parts availability will become a bigger issue over time.

BTW, there is also a 2002 LeMans with lower mileage for sale nearby.
http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/mcy/5232507982.html

[fatbob]

I believe that the first Norge was 2007, you're looking at a 2005? 

[Mile High Guzzi]

Since Nick quoted my post from 3 years ago comparing my 08 1200 Sport vs my 03 V11 Rosso, I guess I have standing to chime in, even though I have never owned a Norge (just a naked one I guess)

....so here is the deal....you can argue, (but you would be wrong  ).....a Norge handles pretty good, but no way, no how a Norge handles as well as a V11 Lemans.   And you can tour on a V11 Lemans, but no way, no how is a V11 Lemans a better mileage eater than a Norge.  Your decision is easy if you are comparing the two to decide which to enter in either a sanctioned roadrace or an iron butt.

BTW, a Norge weighs 40 more top-heavy lbs than my 1200 Sport and it has softer springs.  That won't go around a corner faster.  But put some heavier springs (front and rear) and it will make a world of difference.  And a V11 Lemans does bad things to my 50+ year old body much much sooner than my 1200 Sport, so if you envision high mileage, you may want to consider put some higher bars, lower pegs, etc. but it still won't be as comfortable as a Norge...you get the idea.  I love both of mine, and grab the keys much more often on my 1200 Sport because it is just an easier bike to ride, but on the other hand, I really enjoy the (shorter) sportier blasts on the V11.

BTW, I had not seen my pics from my post 3 years ago for a while, but they are pretty good, link below 

http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=57923.0

[Bill Hagan]

****

....so here is the deal....you can argue, (but you would be wrong  ).....a Norge handles pretty good, but no way, no how a Norge handles as well as a V11 Lemans.   

****

OK, I'll take a swing. 

This reminds me of the "War Is Not the Answer" bumper stickers.  Doesn't it depend on the question?   

Seriously, while I suppose there is some objective standard for "handle," even that involves lots of "it depends" WRT what sort of riding one does.

I love the RC, and -- while I have not ridden one (darn it) -- have ridden "plain jane" LeMans and put over 20K on my Ballabio that sure was quicker in turns because of its bars than the LeMans I rode.  But "handling?" 

IMO, a motorcycle that requires, because of its wheelbase and short bars, significant effort to manhandle it through tight stuff is no dream to "handle," and certainly isn't "flickable."

My Norge falls without effort into turns of all kinds, whether 100 mph sweepers (that I take at lower speeds!  ), whiskbroom tighter ones, and even switchbacks (which I loathe).

So, for me at least, the Norge may weigh more but dances through the back roads like a much slimmer partner.  Yes, I have serious mods to front and rear suspension, and think that necessary on firstgen Norges unless one has a jockey sort of physique.

This is, I suppose, just one of those things that -- no objective standard being applicable --  is unanswerable except to ourselves.

In the meantime, I'll just ride and grin.

I'm doing this tomorrow, two-up with Kathi, on the Norge. 

https://goo.gl/maps/noh7PSzi2Fw

Would enjoy it on a Rosso Corsa, too, but one isn't in my harem ... yet.   

Bill

 

[Mile High Guzzi]

Bill, you have corrected me.  I was imprecise in my wording.  "Handling" was too broad a term to use, what I meant was "go around a corner faster".  And I respect that a good rider can take an 850 lb Whatevermaglide around a corner faster than an average rider on a Yamaha R1, but what I meant to convey was that if you were to put a Norge and a V11 on a racetrack, I know which one would run the fastest lap time.  I also know that none of us go around a racetrack on the road, so it really makes little difference, both handle more than good enough.

OK, I'll take a swing. 

This reminds me of the "War Is Not the Answer" bumper stickers.  Doesn't it depend on the question?   

Seriously, while I suppose there is some objective standard for "handle," even that involves lots of "it depends" WRT what sort of riding one does.

I love the RC, and -- while I have not ridden one (darn it) -- have ridden "plain jane" LeMans and put over 20K on my Ballabio that sure was quicker in turns because of its bars than the LeMans I rode.  But "handling?" 

IMO, a motorcycle that requires, because of its wheelbase and short bars, significant effort to manhandle it through tight stuff is no dream to "handle," and certainly isn't "flickable."

My Norge falls without effort into turns of all kinds, whether 100 mph sweepers (that I take at lower speeds!  ), whiskbroom tighter ones, and even switchbacks (which I loathe).

So, for me at least, the Norge may weigh more but dances through the back roads like a much slimmer partner.  Yes, I have serious mods to front and rear suspension, and think that necessary on firstgen Norges unless one has a jockey sort of physique.

This is, I suppose, just one of those things that -- no objective standard being applicable --  is unanswerable except to ourselves.

In the meantime, I'll just ride and grin.

I'm doing this tomorrow, two-up with Kathi, on the Norge. 

https://goo.gl/maps/noh7PSzi2Fw

Would enjoy it on a Rosso Corsa, too, but one isn't in my harem ... yet.   

Bill