Monza annual inspection

[Chuck in Indiana]

I treat motorcycles like airplanes. They get an annual inspection. A motorcycle will kill ya faster than an airplane will..  Anyone interested? If so, I'll do a tutorial. There still isn't a *lot* of old small block info on WG.

[bmc5733946]

Chuck,

Always nice to follow along and see what and how others do things.

Brian

[kidsmoke]

Certainly. I'd welcome the opportunity to see your methodical approach to such things. And with only a single bike, shouldn't be too overwhelming to follow along.

[chaoselephant23]

 :1:

[RinkRat II]

It's always entertaining and educational to follow your procedures and display of skill. I would like to suggest this time perhaps including an assistant




 
 to help with parts cleaning, measuring and tool selection. For educational purposes of course.

     Paul B

[twowings]

Yes, please! And if you have any big-block tips, I'd like to see them as well...

[Tony/CT]

Yes! Picked up a V50 III last year. Taking some of it apart and putting it back together.

[Diploman]

By all means!  I'm working on a V50II cafe resto/modernization.  I'm the original owner and would love to see a systematic approach to inspection/faultfinding/correction.  Will follow your inspection blog with great interest.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Alrighty now.. let's get started. The patient is practically a one owner bike. (!) The original owner obviously knew and loved the breed, so this should go pretty smoothly. One other owner was involved, and he didn't have much time to bodge anything.  When I got it, the valves were out of adjustment, and a (yuck) new garden tractor battery was installed. Other than that, it's an original survivor.  Here she is.
2017-03-13_05-45-14 by Charles Stottlemyer, on Flickr
The first thing I do on any inspection is take a look at the plugs. They were black and wet from running it down from the Guzzi Garage (tm) with the choke on, so they didn't tell me anything. Normally, though, plugs will tell you a lot about how the engine is running. Why did I start it up and do that? It's really not a good idea to start an engine unless it's going to be thoroughly warmed up, but I had a chat with the Grim Reaper after pushing the Lario down through the snow one time.  He said I was getting a little old to be doing that..
So, we didn't learn anything from the plugs, it'll get new ones anyway. The next thing is to do a leak down compression test.
Take the alternator cover off..
2017-03-13_05-45-43 by Charles Stottlemyer, on Flickr
Once you do that, you can turn the engine over manually with an allen wrench in the bolt that holds the rotor on.
Turn it clockwise, looking from the front until you see the intake valve of the S cylinder open, then close. At that point it is coming up on compression ready to fire.
I have a kid, Tylon, that I am training to run the CNC. He's 21, and absolutely totally clueless about engines. He's willing to learn, though, and stayed over after work to help me with this. Unfortunately, I was showing him every little detail, and forgot to take pictures of them. So I'll pretend, dear reader..  that you are Tylon. For instance, he wondered if the valve springs were the pistons. (!!) He's heard of pistons.. Got the picture?   
So. The S cylinder is the left one if you are sitting on the bike. The intake valve is the one closest to the carburetor. You can put a chop stick, or something similar in the spark plug hole.. yes, Tylon the spark plug goes in there.. and eyeball when the piston comes to the top of the stroke. There is a rubber plug on the right side of the bell housing that can be removed with a small screwdriver. Just pry it out.
Well, duh, forgot to take a picture of the rubber plug.
Once the plug is out, you can see the flywheel. There will be a dash on it at TDC. (Top Dead Center) Using the allen wrench, rotate the engine until the dash lines up with the casting line in the case.
2017-03-13_06-35-54 by Charles Stottlemyer, on Flickr
Now that the piston is exactly at TDC, we can do the leak down test.. but first.. adjust the valves on the S cylinder. .006" on the intake, and .008" on the exhaust.
Here, I'm holding tension with the screwdriver and snugging down the lock nut while the feeler is between the rocker arm and valve stem.
2017-03-13_05-46-59 by Charles Stottlemyer, on Flickr

[Chuck in Indiana]

I showed Tylon the difference between too heavy and too light a feel with the feeler gauges. If it's your first time, try to put one in that is .001 too large, and .001 too small. Think of putting it in the middle of a large telephone book and drawing it out.
"What's a telephone book?" 
Now the valves are adjusted..they didn't need much.. we can do the leak down. My tester is home made, naturally, but they are relatively inexpensive and tell a *lot* about the condition of an engine. 80 psi is applied to an orifice that goes to another gauge that reads the leak.
An air hose adapter is screwed into the spark plug hole and the tester hooked to it. When the air pressure is turned on, the second gauge will show how much leakage is there. Naturally if there was no leak at all it would read 80. It read 76, and you could hear the air gently hissing. I had Tylon listen and tell me where it was coming from. "The Carburetor." Alright, that means the intake valve is leaking. Maybe it has carbon between the valve and seat from running it down here with the choke on. I took a copper hammer, and rapped the rocker arm a few times, and the gauge now reads 78. (!) That is really very good, especially for a 35 year old engine. Gotta love Guzzis.
2017-03-13_05-46-27 by Charles Stottlemyer, on Flickr
Then, I told him that if you could hear air coming out the muffler, it would be an exhaust valve leak, and you could tell if the rings were leaking by listening to the breather hose.
Ok, S cylinder done. Because of the Guzzi firing order, 180/450, it will be 270 degrees or 3/4 of a turn of the allen wrench clockwise to bring the D cylinder to TDC ready to fire.
Adjust the valves and do the leakdown on it the same way. It wasn't quite as good, at 80/76.. but plenty good enough. You don't normally start to look at a cylinder with a jaundiced eye until it drops under 80/70.
That takes care of the mechanical part of the engine.
Now, we'll start on the electrical.
Among the mods the original owner made to the bike is a Dyna S instead of the mechanical points. This is a very good mod for the small blocks. The dual point setup is needs adjusting pretty regularly. The Dyna is set it and forget it. Notice, this is an improvement from the big block "distributor." It's driven directly off the end of the cam and therefore is more accurate.
2017-03-13_05-46-04 by Charles Stottlemyer, on Flickr
One of the maintenance items on the small block that is often overlooked is the mechanical advance mechanism needs to be lubed once a year. So, mark the "points plate" you can see the magic marker on it.. and remove the Dyna by removing the two slotted screws.
Here, Tylon is removing the rotor. He's pointing to the magnet in it. The rotor *can be installed 180 degrees out.*
2017-03-13_05-47-31 by Charles Stottlemyer, on Flickr
That would ruin you day.  Pay attention, and just put it back the same way it came off.
Now we can see the advance mechanism. I've seen them completely frozen up, but this one is fine. No need to pull it out, clean off corrosion, etc. Tylon's giving it a dab of Marvel Mystery oil on the pivot points and making sure it works smoothly.
2017-03-13_05-47-53 by Charles Stottlemyer, on Flickr
 If your small block doesn't run well at high rpm, a stuck advance is more than likely the issue.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Remember the slotted screws that hold the advance plate in? They can be a booger to reinstall. This is a screw starter, another of my antique tools. Why are most of my tools antiques? I bought most of them new..
At any rate, it's spring loaded
2017-03-13_08-03-12 by Charles Stottlemyer, on Flickr
and makes starting those screws a piece of cake. As I've said many times, the proper tool is generally about 2/3 of the job.
2017-03-13_08-02-47 by Charles Stottlemyer, on Flickr
Let's set the timing, now. Reassemble the Dyna, but leave the two screws loose enough that the plate can be rotated. We're still at TDC ready to fire on the D cylinder, right? The D cylinder timing is done by rotating the points plate, so turn the engine counter clockwise this time about 10 degrees and you will see a center punch mark.
2017-03-13_06-37-05 by Charles Stottlemyer, on Flickr
This is the "static" timing mark.  There are three wires coming from the Dyna. White is for the D cylinder, black for the S, and red is power. Stick your electrical tester into the white wire connection, the alligator clip to ground, and turn on the ignition. Rotate the points plate until the light just comes on.
2017-03-13_05-48-20 by Charles Stottlemyer, on Flickr
Tighten down the points plate. Back up the engine, and rotate it clockwise until the light comes on. Look in the timing hole. Is the center punch mark centered? Perfect. 
The S cylinder is timed by moving the S module on the points plate. It's held on by two screws that need to be loosened enough for it to be rotated a little. Bring the engine back up to TDC ready to fire on the S cylinder. Put your probe in the black wire and move the module until the light just comes on. Tighten the two screws.
Bask in that great feeling of another job well done. 
Looks like it's beer o'clock already.. done for the day.

[pete roper]

Nice Chuck. Keep it coming. Peepuls Need To Lern!

[not-fishing]

The best update I've done to my V50-III so far has been new button coils. 


On the points plate I just changed out the old screws to allens.  Maybe next year I change to dyna s.

The carbs I rebuilt and jetted with Colortune.

Dash lights got replace with LED's.

Shifter lever "bent back" to clear the exhaust pipe.  Funny how now rearsets don't seem as necessary anymore

Now I have a Condor bar to put on but my youngest son doesn't want me to lower the gauges....



That will probably be it for this year as we want to make a number of rallies on the West Coast this year.  The boy will choose between the V50 and Griso, I'll probably be on the Lemans

Mark

[Guido Valvole]

That looks familiar -  I just checked and adjusted the valves and changed the oil for my Monza. Lucas RITA ignition (came with it) and it *looks* like the advance mechanism is no longer there. Or maybe it's behind the pickups? Anyone know?

Also, not-fishing, what's the source for those coils and how much trouble was it to mount them?
Thanks!
cr

[Scud]

Thanks Chuck.

 

[80CX100]

Tks very much for taking the time, to post and share,,, I always learn something new from these type of posts,,,

I had set my static timing with a voltmeter,,, it was a bit of a pita,,, your test light method will definitely make it easier.

tks

Kelly

[SED]

Thanks for this Chuck!  Always a treat to watch you work.

Cool tool:

Remember the slotted screws that hold the advance plate in? They can be a booger to reinstall. This is a screw starter, another of my antique tools. Why are most of my tools antiques? I bought most of them new..
At any rate, it's spring loaded
2017-03-13_08-03-12 by Charles Stottlemyer, on Flickr

 There are three wires coming from the Dyna. White is for the D cylinder, black for the S, and red is power. Stick your electrical tester into the white wire connection, the alligator clip to ground, and turn on the ignition. Rotate the points plate until the light just comes on.
2017-03-13_05-48-20 by Charles Stottlemyer, on Flickr

Electronic ignition timing can be set without the magnet moving past the pickup?!  How does that work?  I set my Dyna timing with a strobe light.

I learn something every time.   

[not-fishing]

Also, not-fishing, what's the source for those coils and how much trouble was it to mount them?
Thanks!
cr

The coils are from Power Arc or C5 Ignitions at $70 each which is half the price of stock replacement gut you still have to buy Ignition wires and boots  They are single ignition coils and actually pretty big / robust and simple.

Installing them is not hard for a poor mechanic like me.  I cut off one of the old big ring coil hanger then just drilled and mounted the new ones.  You have to mount them in a row under the spine.  They'd probably put out even more spark with the faster rise rate of pointless ignition.  I'm still  using points.

I had the little coils pictured but burned one out actually the electronic switching circuitry inside so I don't trust them as much as these boat anchors.  Still they're not really that much bigger than the old coils.

[Chuck in Indiana]

I haven't read anything good about the stock coils, although these on the Monza seem to be fine. The stock coils on the Aero Lario have been changed out to Dynas. Simple brackets fabbed to use the original coil mounts.. the ballast resistor has since been given the deep six.

We'll get back to it today.. colonoscopy yesterday.   
Researching the Power Arc as we speak..

[Chuck in Indiana]

That looks familiar -  I just checked and adjusted the valves and changed the oil for my Monza. Lucas RITA ignition (came with it) and it *looks* like the advance mechanism is no longer there. Or maybe it's behind the pickups? Anyone know?

Also, not-fishing, what's the source for those coils and how much trouble was it to mount them?
Thanks!
cr

I *think* the Lucas Rita uses electronic advance..

[johnk]

Lucas RITA ignition (came with it) and it *looks* like the advance mechanism is no longer there. Or maybe it's behind the pickups? Anyone know?

My Monza came with a Rita as well. It does away with the advancer weights and has a build in advance. If my memory is correct there is no curve to it. It holds the static timing to a point then advances timing with a fixed slope until max. advance.
ASCII art warning....

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[John A]

It's a good time to do that transmission breather mod. Dave is ok with someone with better skills and equipment than me scanning and printing those instructions here. Hint hint, it's in those papers I sent to you.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Thanks for this Chuck!  Always a treat to watch you work.

Cool tool:
Electronic ignition timing can be set without the magnet moving past the pickup?!  How does that work?  I set my Dyna timing with a strobe light.

I learn something every time.   

I didn't really explain this thoroughly enough. The total advance for the typical small block is 33 degrees. There are three marks on the flywheel, TDC, 10  degrees BTDC, and 33 degrees BTDC. The static advance is where we set the initial timing. There are 23 degrees available via the advance mechanism, so at full advance you will have 33 degrees total advance. When you are timing with the timing light, you should be seeing the 10 degree mark at idle, and 33 at 4000 rpm or so. Make sense? When all goes well, that is what you will see. In the real world  go with the 33 degrees total with a timing light.
Another thing that I didn't make perfectly clear after reading what I said.. The rotor has to be perfectly free to rotate on the shaft on the end of the cam, along with the flyweights being free. Either or both can be "stuck" from congealed lube *or* tightening the bolt that holds it on too tightly. Make sure that it can. If tightening the bolt binds it up, use blue Loc Tite on it and just snug it up so the advance is free to turn.

[Chuck in Indiana]

It's a good time to do that transmission breather mod. Dave is ok with someone with better skills and equipment than me scanning and printing those instructions here. Hint hint, it's in those papers I sent to you.

That goes a little beyond an "annual inspection.." and I just serviced the transmission last fall. I'd hate to dump that expensive trans lube..  (guzzi content) to do it, but I'll consider it if I run out of stuff to do while the weather still sucks..

[Chuck in Indiana]

On reflection, the advance on a small block is important enough to add some more, so I took it back apart. The pin on the cam nose locates the advance plate.
2017-03-15_11-04-59 by Charles Stottlemyer, on Flickr
Here's the back of the advance plate.
2017-03-15_11-04-47 by Charles Stottlemyer, on Flickr
Unfortunately, Flickr editing is disabled at the moment  so I can't lighten up this picture properly.
2017-03-15_11-04-13 by Charles Stottlemyer, on Flickr
 See the arrow at the top of the plate? When installing the Dyna S, it goes to the top, and the magnet that Tylon pointed to yesterday goes to the right. The "feet" of the bob weights go into the slots in the rotor. So.. the bob weights have to be free, and the rotor has to be free to turn on the cam nose. Got it? As centrifugal force overpowers the springs on the bob weights, the rotor turns and advances the ignition.

[John A]

You might read the instructions no need to drain the oil, just pull the starter, coat the drill and tap with grease to keep chips to minimum, install fitting, fill with it on side stand

[Groover]

Very nice thread. Thanks for doing this!

[Chuck in Indiana]

Uh oh. Tylon is getting more interested in working on this Guzzi than running the CNC.  I hate to dampen his curiosity by cracking the whip and saying "get back to work.."
2017-03-15_11-03-53 by Charles Stottlemyer, on Flickr
I've found that when people think of "breaking down" on the road, they normally think mechanical. In my experience, that's not true. The most common is a flat tire. After that, it's some stupid little electrical problem. Normally at night. And raining. 
So, let's clean up the electrical system, starting with charging.
These are the three leads off the alternator. Clean them up with a stainless tooth brush
2017-03-15_11-03-38 by Charles Stottlemyer, on Flickr
Squirt a little Caig DeOxit on them and in the connector..
2017-03-15_11-03-21 by Charles Stottlemyer, on Flickr
Put them together, wiggle them around.. oh, you know. 
Do the same to the rest of the connectors on the alternator, and while you're there..
eyeball the brush springs and make sure the brushes aren't abnormally worn.
2017-03-15_11-03-01 by Charles Stottlemyer, on Flickr
Now, back to the diode board.
The three yellow wires from the alternator terminate here. It obviously hasn't been looked at for a while..
2017-03-15_11-02-45 by Charles Stottlemyer, on Flickr
From my days as a moldmaker, I have literally hundreds of files. This is from my little Swiss file set, but an antique "points file" will work, too.
2017-03-15_11-02-13 by Charles Stottlemyer, on Flickr
Get in there and get rid of the corrosion on the contacts.
2017-03-15_11-02-31 by Charles Stottlemyer, on Flickr
Clean and DeOxit all the connectors on the diode board the same way as the alternator.
2017-03-15_11-02-00 by Charles Stottlemyer, on Flickr
Did you notice the rust on the diode board? It's from that effin expletives deleted Garden Tractor Battery.  Here, you can see the rust on the battery hold down bail, and the expletive deleted  vent of the Garden Tractor Battery. No doubt, it would eventually have caused a "failure" in the charging system by the battery acid attacking the connectors of the diode board.
2017-03-15_11-01-41 by Charles Stottlemyer, on Flickr
I have a dollar that sez the original owner kept a motorcycle battery in it and there wasn't a spot of rust until the second owner put the new Garden Tractor Battery in it.
I know.. they are cheap. Just Say No. <shuffling off and grumbling>

[Chuck in Indiana]

You might read the instructions no need to drain the oil, just pull the starter, coat the drill and tap with grease to keep chips to minimum, install fitting, fill with it on side stand

It's that keeping the chips to a minimum I have a problem with. No doubt, the gears will grind them up, but I'd feel better with a transmission drain, flush, and refill..

[Chuck in Indiana]

Very nice thread. Thanks for doing this!

My pleasure. It's a way of "giving back" for all I've learned about Guzzis on WG.