Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: 11201ny on July 18, 2015, 05:33:09 PM
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Hi,
Any sense in upgrading a V7 Stone ii ABS to the K&N air filter?
Thanks :bow:
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You will NOT get any benefits from changing to a K&N filter on your V7. No difference in performance, gas mileage or overall running of the bike. The bike came equipped with the best air filter that you will find.
(not just my opinion but of some very seasoned, learned people on this forum)
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Huge advantage if you want to wear your engine out quicker.
It's a downgrade, not an upgrade.
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Settled.
Thanks!
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For the "old" pre-13 engine BMC made a performance filter, and KNC had one that could be made to fit as well.
The real issue is that the factory air fuel mixture is already on the lean side so upping the air flow doesn't yield performance gains.
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My 2004 Breva 750 has 55,000 miles on the clock, 50,000 of which it has been breathing through a K&N air filter.
The engine uses no oil and does not smoke. Maybe that is due to the generally cleaner mountain air in Colorado.
I realize this is anecdotal; others experience no doubt varies. Those who live ten miles down a gravel road will not want a high flow intake screen like a K&N.
As for performance, I have had the ECU reflashed for a 'richer' experience. Best $250 I ever spent, and I still get almost 60 mpg.
At Wide Open Throttle the Breva performs very briskly, and even broke the ton one fine day. WOT is where the K&N gives just a little more airflow.
(http://www.dansher.com/bikepix/Guzzi/BrevaDoesTon.jpg)
Warning: Experienced rider: Do not try this at home.
'Geezer
PS: Over the years I have gathered lots of reference fyi on this solid little bike (mostly from this Forum). Perhaps you will find something useful in it: http://www.dansher.com/bikepix/Guzzi/_V7_fyi.txt (http://www.dansher.com/bikepix/Guzzi/_V7_fyi.txt)
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My 2004 Breva 750 has 55,000 miles on the clock, 50,000 of which it has been breathing through a K&N air filter.
<snip>
As for performance, I have had the ECU reflashed for a 'richer' experience. Best $250 I ever spent, and I still get almost 60 mpg.
At Wide Open Throttle the Breva performs very briskly, and even broke the ton one fine day. WOT is where the K&N gives just a little more airflow.
Jeeeez, and my 2013 V7 Stone has broken the ton a couple of times, pushing my not so small frame and some saddlebags through the wind.
How in Gawd's name did it do that with a stock air filter and no-reflash????
:shocked:
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The stock setup on my '13 V7 was 'interesting'. Lots of owners complained about stalling and stumbling when cold. I had mine on the dyno and found that the fueling went from lean to rich to lean depending on the rpm. As an example, in the 2.5K rpm range it was about 15:1, by 3K 14:1, 3.8K it was 12:1, and from 6K onward it got richer and richer. A new ECU flash leveled all this out and did away with the problems. Guzzi then came out with a dealer supplied reflash that appears to be very similar to what I paid for. My point is that the factory flash is pretty good now...Beetle has an even better one....and changing to a K&N should not make the bike run super lean. The change probably won't make any performance improvement but is likely to let more fine grit into the engine.
The Heron head V7s are limited by that basic head design. They are not going to flow beyond a certain amount unless you are willing to spend a significant amount of $$$. Ed Milich is the expert there. http://guzzipower.com/store/Headwork.html
Peter Y.
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I remember reading a post that they had installed a K&N and it affected the performance to the point of needing a new map. Don't know year/model of V7.
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Jeeeez, and my 2013 V7 Stone has broken the ton a couple of times, pushing my not so small frame and some saddlebags through the wind.
How in Gawd's name did it do that with a stock air filter and no-reflash????
:shocked:
My '09 V7 would break the ton even when stock. Although my weight probably wasn't stressing the engine like Kevin's was. :grin:
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My '09 V7 would break the ton even when stock. Although my weight probably wasn't stressing the engine like Kevin's was. :grin:
This is true :boozing:
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I remember reading a post that they had installed a K&N and it affected the performance to the point of needing a new map. Don't know year/model of V7.
This is typical. In the early fuel injected bikes, there were no MAP sensors. The throttle bodies had a known flow rate, and so the injector pulse-widths were calculated by applying corrections from engine temperature, intake and ambient air temperature and ambient air pressure. Adding a free flowing filter affected the air flow rate, but the ECU could not compensate for the increased air, so a remap was required. It was worse when a more open exhaust was fitted.
Later, when O2 sensors were added, the ECU could compensate somewhat, but only in the closed loop area, typically below 5000 RPM and above engine temps of 60 degrees C. However, the amount of trimming was limited, so a free flowing filter and a free flowing exhaust could still see a drop in performance.
With the newer bikes, such as the single throttle body V7 and Cali 1400, a MAP (manifold absolute pressure) sensor has been added. This can compensate somewhat better, so typically they are not affected by the use of a free-flowing filter as much, but only in the lower RPM's. You can see on this graph, the typical affect on MAP for no filter, paper filter and K&N.
(https://i62.servimg.com/u/f62/18/91/78/64/af694810.jpg)
With respect to our motorcycles, the stock filter flows more than adequately for a V7/V9 or big block. The same material is used on the high powered Aprilia's, so there is no valid argument, in my opinion for using an aftermarket filter.
Thank you for reading.
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Although i have a re-flashed bike, I put one in just for the serviceability factor. No more filters to buy. My Ducs all had one with no issues.
No performance gain expected.
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Although i have a re-flashed bike, I put one in just for the serviceability factor. No more filters to buy. My Ducs all had one with no issues.
No performance gain expected.
How much did the aftermarket filter cost? How many stock filters could you buy with that money? Five? Six? Ten? Unless you live somewhere really dusty or ride dirt a lot, (In which case you really don't want to be using a labyrinth filter.) a standard filter will probably last at least 20,000km! So five filters will last you 100,000km. I just can't see the 'Saving'???
Pete
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I've seen no evidence of an advantage using an aftermarket filter. The OEM filter has a flow rate beyond the capability of the V7. Manufactures spend big $$ to optimize engine performance (input, combustion, exhaust) in a very competitive marketplace. Why would any manufacturer provide a filter that limits performance, makes no sense to me???
The only benefits of an market filter is a lighter wallet, more intake noise, bragging rights, and perhaps shorter engine life. Your bike, your wallet, your choice...…. do whatcha gotta do. :boozing:
Paul
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And if you do put on a BMC/K&N and you happen to over oil it, a film of oil may line the manifolds & throttle bodies/body, to which fine grit attaches and eventually serious affects the running. Don't ask me how I know. And getting the throttle bodies off those rubber manifolds (at least on the 2TB models) is a serious exercise in frustration, not to mention getting them back on.
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K&N filters must be good at something or they would not still be in business. But for motorcycles they offer few benefits. I suppose somebody travelling the world in dusty conditions and not having access to spare air filters there could be an advantage but for most a standard air filter is more than adequate.
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The best dealer within 100 miles of you is Hamlin in CT.
I live near Bear Mt. about 60 miles North of the city. If you want a tutorial on the care and feeding of your small block or want to borrow cables to install a Beetle map drop me a line.
Guzziownr at yahoo dot com
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I bought a scooter a year or so ago with a K & N sticker on it. No filter, just the sticker.
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Many years ago, in the instruction manual for KN filters it stated that they filter better when they were dirty. I thought "oh" I decided they weren't for me. Many thanks to Beetle for the information!
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K&N filters must be good at something or they would not still be in business.
Cigarettes are good for nothing but the manufacturers are still in business.
BTW
I used to have one in my Norge but gave it the arse.
And a Breva with 90,000 odd k's on the clock that "cracked the ton"...!
My '07 Norge will crack the metric "double ton" with the stock filter up it's blurter.
The rationale to install a new filter at each service, offered to me by a budding mechanic, made sense at the time..
It still does..
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K&N filters must be good at something or they would not still be in business. <SNIP>
K&N is good at marketing and leveraging their reputation earned in racing applications. For someone looking to tune and squeeze the last couple % of engine performance at the top end they work. For street use it's more of a bling factor and where you put their sticker.
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K&N is good at marketing and leveraging their reputation earned in racing applications. For someone looking to tune and squeeze the last couple % of engine performance at the top end they work.
But why do devotees of aftermarket “high flow” :rolleyes: filters, think that it’s because a restriction in air is applying the limit to their absolute performance ?
It may very well be, but it’s not a fait accompli.
Last time I checked, having the OPTIMUM fuel/air ratio for the regime in which the engine is operating, is the condition that you seek.
What would be the benefit in increased airflow, if your bike was actually running lean of optimum at full bore ?
Again it may not be the case, but you cannot just PRESUME it is not so.
I think there’s a subliminal feeling we get when our engine is perceived to be struggling to produce more performance, that it is “out of breath”, which is what we experience when we have worked to our maximum.
The engine doesn’t get “tired”.
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Speaking of Guzzi filters, I could not believe how cheap they are. I went to my dealer, Blackmann's out in Emmaus, PA, for a tachometer warranty issue, and I picked up a filter while there. I was expecting $15, $20, $30......Guzzi parts are not cheap.....$9! No point in buying anything else.......got lots of pleats and looks to be really good quality. My 2 cents....or 3 with inflation.
Scott
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Some guys get really exercised about air filters. The amount of B.S. on car and bike forums over this filter, that filter, and supposed performance gains available goes on unto eternity, amen. Over at the Royal Enfield 650 forum there are literally hundreds of posts on the subject. :rolleyes:
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and for a minuscule difference, if there is one at all, for street riding, no less............... ...................
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I’m surprised spark plugs don’t get the same level of forum scrutiny as air filters, oil filters, engine oil, additives, brake pads, tires, etc. Most DIY replacement parts have heavy marketing spend behind them, but the stuff vehicle owners can’t easily service or replace themselves, like main bearings, connecting rods, valves, fuel injectors, etc., attract no retail marketing whatsoever. I imagine a clever marketer could make those components seem glamorous too.
I couldn’t be bothered to maintain my car myself, so it goes to the dealer for routine service, fluid changes, etc. I don’t care what brand of parts and fluids the dealer uses, and my car is worth a heck of a lot more than any of my bikes. OEM stuff is fine. It’s just not worth worrying about.
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Now if you throw silencers/pipes into the conversation, my Agostini slips on gave me at least a 10HP increase! I can tell by the sound...... :cool: :cool:
In truth, I have no idea what they do to performance, but I would think a little less restriction might not be a bad thing. But I don't care because they sound AMAZING! And they were fully half the weight of the originals. Even stock the V7III sounded great.
Scott
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For most modern bikes it's pretty hard to really improve what the OEM designers and engineers come up with. One of the best comments I ever heard about the issue of mods was "stock is trick" attributed to racer Mike Baldwin. :thumb:
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Pete Roper once explained why my Norge would go better with the dB restrict or in.
I immediately forgot what he said because I told him I didn’t care, I just wanted the sound...
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Although i have a re-flashed bike, I put one in just for the serviceability factor. No more filters to buy. My Ducs all had one with no issues.
No performance gain expected.
I stick with OEM disposable filters for the same serviceability factor: no more filters to clean and re-oil.
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I recently upgraded to a DNA air filter with a claimed 52.77% air flow increase. This is to supplement my upgraded exaust. The bike is currently at the shop awaiting remapping.
(https://i.ibb.co/cDrh6gh/IMG-20220109-123607.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cDrh6gh)
(https://i.ibb.co/CnmKMtn/hdr.jpg) (https://ibb.co/CnmKMtn)
(https://i.ibb.co/Fgjw2g4/IMG-20211228-225701.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Fgjw2g4)