Author Topic: NO TBS?  (Read 1219 times)

Offline SemperVee

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NO TBS?
« on: October 02, 2022, 10:55:45 AM »
 My new 07 Norge with 48K miles has NEVER had a TB sync. So says the original owner and I have no reason to doubt him.  *What is the new and improved method to check and adjust if necessary?    I have no aversion to buying software or something to attach that I can manually input via my MAC laptop.   Should I just acquire a  carb balancing tool from Amazon?

Anyone in the Seattle Area that can help,  I would appreciate muchly.

Thanks in advance.
2007 MG Norge - Hi Ho Silver! - La Dolce Vita
CalSci Tall Windshield
Heli-Bars
Matris Fork + SAG set
Eibach Rear spring
Salamander HB ends
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Online Huzo

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Re: NO TBS?
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2022, 11:52:57 AM »
Ok.
I am close to clueless and I got through it. I only tell you that so you know it’s not some geek telling you…
“Oh it’s easy…” :angry: :violent1:
Get Guzzidiag and an appropriate laptop.
I use a home made manometer with fittings to screw into the intake tracts.

Make sure you know which screw to adjust and not the wrong one.
BTW.
Check that the paint is still intact on the “sacred screw”, if not…
Houston, you have a problem…
But…
Learn where to find the CO value and note it…
Generally around +2 - +8 if memory serves, mine is at +3

Wind the air bleeds in.
Start the bike.
Get it up to 70 deg.
Take it up to 3,000 rpm, you can slide a thin packer under the throttle stop to keep it constant.
DO NOT adjust the bell crank length to get the manometer even.
Learn which screw to manipulate, make damn bloody sure you’ve done your homework on this.
Manipulate the adjusting screw on the left TB to get the manometer correct.
Go back to idle and open whichever air bleed you need to, to get the manometer correct at idle.
The idle speed is hard coded into the ECU and controlled by the stepper.

To set the TPS, you’ll need to read “New and improved tutorial by Beetle 100 times..
It took me 200 but you’re twice as smart.
Just ask a million questions and read all you can on the topic.

Offline SemperVee

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Re: NO TBS?
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2022, 03:09:35 PM »
  Huzo,  Thanks for all that info.  Now I need to decipher and figure out everything you said.  LOL...     I have the service manual and perhaps it's me, but I think it leaves a lot to be desired.. 
2007 MG Norge - Hi Ho Silver! - La Dolce Vita
CalSci Tall Windshield
Heli-Bars
Matris Fork + SAG set
Eibach Rear spring
Salamander HB ends
K&N  filter
StainTune pipe
Metal gas fltr
Givi Rear rack
Givi V46 Box and Rack
Startus Interuptus
Napoleon Mirrors
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Online Huzo

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Re: NO TBS?
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2022, 03:24:35 PM »
  Huzo,  Thanks for all that info.  Now I need to decipher and figure out everything you said.  LOL...     I have the service manual and perhaps it's me, but I think it leaves a lot to be desired..
Just read everything you can that Beetle says.
Do not read anything that does not apply to your bike. If I were you, I’d find someone who knows what they’re doing and take a ride to see them.
I have to settle for Pete Roper, he’ll do for now… :rolleyes:
« Last Edit: October 02, 2022, 03:26:05 PM by Huzo »

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Re: NO TBS?
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2022, 03:24:35 PM »

Online Huzo

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Re: NO TBS?
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2022, 03:33:50 PM »
I have bumped “The New Improved Guzzidiag Tutorial”
Don’t even think you’re going to get a handle on it for ages, but you will.
For the record, your bike has the W5AM ECU.
DO NOT read anything about any other ECU, you’ll just end up in the ****.
Ask any question you like, because 85% of the people reading your post (including me), will say to themselves…
“Actually I was wondering that too…”
No one will put you down.
Bloody Beetle is a freaking genius, but really has gotten this thing to the stage where mortals can handle it without blowing their bloody hands off…..(mostly).

Offline SemperVee

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Re: NO TBS?
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2022, 04:16:45 PM »
I have bumped “The New Improved Guzzidiag Tutorial”
Don’t even think you’re going to get a handle on it for ages, but you will.
For the record, your bike has the W5AM ECU.
DO NOT read anything about any other ECU, you’ll just end up in the ****.
Ask any question you like, because 85% of the people reading your post (including me), will say to themselves…
“Actually I was wondering that too…”
No one will put you down.
Bloody Beetle is a freaking genius, but really has gotten this thing to the stage where mortals can handle it without blowing their bloody hands off…..(mostly).

You are a wealth of information here Huzo.   When I teach people computer stuff I make it as easy to comprehend and digest as possible.  I am humbled that I am in that same position now as a budding Guzzi-phile.    ***IS there something that I can buy and install (Power Commander? ) that will do the TBS and other things other than Adjust the Valves.   Not having dealer is challenging as most of us know that are on that road.  I have the service manual but it leaves a lot out.   
2007 MG Norge - Hi Ho Silver! - La Dolce Vita
CalSci Tall Windshield
Heli-Bars
Matris Fork + SAG set
Eibach Rear spring
Salamander HB ends
K&N  filter
StainTune pipe
Metal gas fltr
Givi Rear rack
Givi V46 Box and Rack
Startus Interuptus
Napoleon Mirrors
Grip Puppies

Offline Tom H

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Re: NO TBS?
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2022, 05:37:54 PM »
Software: Guzzidiag, free but donations accepted. Will run on Mac, but you may have to fiddle with it.

Cables to connect laptop to bike: Lonelec in England. About $40 or so. Amazon has cables as well, but the Lonelec is recommended.

TB balance: I like the vacuum gauges. Amazon https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B083K6G8ZD/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Read up on Guzzidiag, here: https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=96957.0  Page 14 has a short info about Mac, but there is more on other pages.

Tom
« Last Edit: October 02, 2022, 05:42:47 PM by Tom H »
2004 Cali EV Touring
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Offline SemperVee

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Re: NO TBS?
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2022, 06:56:41 PM »
Software: Guzzidiag, free but donations accepted. Will run on Mac, but you may have to fiddle with it.

Cables to connect laptop to bike: Lonelec in England. About $40 or so. Amazon has cables as well, but the Lonelec is recommended.

TB balance: I like the vacuum gauges. Amazon https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B083K6G8ZD/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Read up on Guzzidiag, here: https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=96957.0  Page 14 has a short info about Mac, but there is more on other pages.

Tom
    TOM, Thank you for all that information to give a footing to start with between you and Huzo have been immense help.
2007 MG Norge - Hi Ho Silver! - La Dolce Vita
CalSci Tall Windshield
Heli-Bars
Matris Fork + SAG set
Eibach Rear spring
Salamander HB ends
K&N  filter
StainTune pipe
Metal gas fltr
Givi Rear rack
Givi V46 Box and Rack
Startus Interuptus
Napoleon Mirrors
Grip Puppies

Offline 80CX100

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Re: NO TBS?
« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2022, 07:00:02 PM »
Search out instructions for a simple basic tune up for EFI guzzis, there are different ones floating around out there.

The only thing I'd add to what's been said, is to make sure to verify/adjust valves & TPS as needed as part of the basic tune up, BEFORE doing the balance.

With guzzidiag, Roper is right, the CARC bikes are quick and easy to tune, once you get the computer set up.

fwiw ymmv
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Online GuzziOrDeath

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Re: NO TBS?
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2022, 08:09:57 PM »

There's a pdf of throttle body balance on the griso.org site.


https://www.griso.org/CARC_TB_Balance.pdf





Offline 80CX100

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Re: NO TBS?
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2022, 09:15:25 PM »
There's a pdf of throttle body balance on the griso.org site.


https://www.griso.org/CARC_TB_Balance.pdf

Tks very much for that link and reminder to recheck the TPS again after adjusting it.

On my CARC Griso doing it on the computer that part was a breeze,,,,

On my CalVin, rechecking and resetting the TPS manually,,, it was a finicky AF pita, it kept moving around tightening the screws
2008 California Vintage
2003 V11 Lemans
2007 Griso 1100
1979 G5 & 1980 Lemans CX100
2010 Suzuki DR650 & 1978 SR500

In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. George Orwell

Online Huzo

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Re: NO TBS?
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2022, 09:22:22 PM »
The reliable word on power commanders is that they just throw fuel at everything. I believe that’s empirically correct and there is no good reason to depart from what is needed.
Just learn the clean, correct and proven way to the proper solution.
Once you digest the straightforward procedure, you’ll not even consider bolt on blanket “fixes” like power commanders.
You’ll just end up with something that sucks gas like a Top Fuel dragster and a pipe like a coal burning locomotive.

If you search “Huzo’s Norge” you’ll see what happened to mine way back when I tried one of those before Roper, Beetle and Wild Guzzi.

Does your bike have a tendancy toward “pinging” under load in warm and/or humid conditions ?
Does it seem to run and perform ok ?
If so, I would just do all the items on the schedule and learn the Guzzidiag stuff while you’re getting to know the bike.
There’s no replacement for good understanding, but if it isn’t actually broken maybe leave it be until the real stuff like greasing the splines and checking pinion lock nut security etc has been done.
What’s it like to ride ?
« Last Edit: October 02, 2022, 09:35:37 PM by Huzo »

Offline SemperVee

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Re: NO TBS?
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2022, 09:56:25 AM »
Tks very much for that link and reminder to recheck the TPS again after adjusting it.

On my CARC Griso doing it on the computer that part was a breeze,,,,

On my CalVin, rechecking and resetting the TPS manually,,, it was a finicky AF pita, it kept moving around tightening the screws

CX - THANKS!  That really brings understanding home with the file with pictures!  Brilliant.  I am getting a faint understanding now of what not to touch, even as I cannot see it underneath the tupperware.   Thanks!!!!
2007 MG Norge - Hi Ho Silver! - La Dolce Vita
CalSci Tall Windshield
Heli-Bars
Matris Fork + SAG set
Eibach Rear spring
Salamander HB ends
K&N  filter
StainTune pipe
Metal gas fltr
Givi Rear rack
Givi V46 Box and Rack
Startus Interuptus
Napoleon Mirrors
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Online Huzo

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Re: NO TBS?
« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2022, 10:03:20 AM »
CX - THANKS!  That really brings understanding home with the file with pictures!  Brilliant.  I am getting a faint understanding now of what not to touch, even as I cannot see it underneath the tupperware.   Thanks!!!!
The relevant bits you need for a TB balance and a TPS reset, are totally reachable without removing any fairings.

Offline SemperVee

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Re: NO TBS?
« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2022, 10:15:33 AM »
Does your bike have a tendancy toward “pinging” under load in warm and/or humid conditions ?
Does it seem to run and perform ok ?
If so, I would just do all the items on the schedule and learn the Guzzidiag stuff while you’re getting to know the bike.
There’s no replacement for good understanding, but if it isn’t actually broken maybe leave it be until the real stuff like greasing the splines and checking pinion lock nut security etc has been done.
What’s it like to ride ?
[/quote]

HUZO,   The truth is in the riding, as your last words are echoing in my military mind.  I got out yesterday for the 2nd time for a 30 mile back road test.  Finally got it to show trip meter and it tells me what my MPG is  (37.8 mpg it reads) and I was listening to the engine, feeling the level of heat rising and sounds from that tractor motor as I felt my way thru the gears and feeling my comfort level with both the Matris forks and Eiback spring suspension an building confidence.  As you said I am leaving all suspension adjustments alone and before pushing it I need to replace the front Conti motion now down to 2/32's on the front mated to a new Shinko Raven 009 on the back.  New F tire and Battery this week!
No pinging at all.  Feels ok but what do I know for comparison.  The roll off is pronounced as I am not used to the shaft effect and the previous owner like me kept his throttle cables with no slack in them, the way I like it.   It has a staintune muffler and it pops when I roll off but I don't feel this is running lean at all according to my butt meter.
So all in all it feels quite good to ride.  "Older" than the previous 07 Norge I owned for a very short time with no oil hole in the plastics down low nor heated grips like the last one.  This really is an early model built 10/2006.  Has a very "agricultural" feel in a good way!  I am quite happy with it thus far.  I would just like to qualify in my own mind that all is well down below.   :laugh: :grin:    Thank you again for leading this early Guzziphile along the path of enlightenment.

« Last Edit: October 03, 2022, 10:19:36 AM by SemperVee »
2007 MG Norge - Hi Ho Silver! - La Dolce Vita
CalSci Tall Windshield
Heli-Bars
Matris Fork + SAG set
Eibach Rear spring
Salamander HB ends
K&N  filter
StainTune pipe
Metal gas fltr
Givi Rear rack
Givi V46 Box and Rack
Startus Interuptus
Napoleon Mirrors
Grip Puppies

Offline Kaladin

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Re: NO TBS?
« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2022, 10:18:36 AM »
Everyone says to close off the idle screws before balancing the throttle bodies at 3000 RPM, but IMHO the idle screws are not letting much air in.  Just crank it up to 3k and adjust the screw with the spring on the left side until the vacuum on both ports are equal.  Easy as pie.
First you look where it should be, then you look where it might be, then you look where it won't be, then you look where it mustn't be.  And when you find it you discover "that's where it should have been."
2007 Norge
2000 BMW R1150GS
2003 Jaguar XKR

Offline SemperVee

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Re: NO TBS?
« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2022, 11:24:23 AM »
I've an old 2010 Macbook dedicated to the garage that I replaced the hard drive with a 500GB SSD and running Mac O/S 10.13 High Sierra.  Looks to me it will run on that O/S according to my due dilligence search.  ***Which cable connections do i purchase from the lonelec UK company or use their new blue tooth version  to enable a connection and to where under the seat is the connection?   If someone has a web page jump that would preclude explaining.  Thanks.    LOL... 
2007 MG Norge - Hi Ho Silver! - La Dolce Vita
CalSci Tall Windshield
Heli-Bars
Matris Fork + SAG set
Eibach Rear spring
Salamander HB ends
K&N  filter
StainTune pipe
Metal gas fltr
Givi Rear rack
Givi V46 Box and Rack
Startus Interuptus
Napoleon Mirrors
Grip Puppies

Offline Tom H

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Re: NO TBS?
« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2022, 11:34:30 AM »
Bluetooth will not work with Guzzidiag. Been there, tried that. Must be USB.

1st page has of the tutorial has the link for Lonelec. I think it takes you to the cables. Read the description to verify the adapter fits your bike.

Tom
2004 Cali EV Touring
1972 Eldo
1970 Ambo V1000
1973 R75/5 SWB with Toaster
2007 HD Street Bob
1953 Triumph 6T (one day it will be on the road!)

Online Huzo

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Re: NO TBS?
« Reply #18 on: October 03, 2022, 12:16:06 PM »
Everyone says to close off the idle screws before balancing the throttle bodies at 3000 RPM, but IMHO the idle screws are not letting much air in.  Just crank it up to 3k and adjust the screw with the spring on the left side until the vacuum on both ports are equal.  Easy as pie.
Ok mate, do that then….
You’ll save yourself 1.5 minutes…! :
But when you have made a change to the plate angle on the right side TB, what do you suggest that will do to your idle balance ?
Why would you even consider rolling the dice on such a trifling issue ? Is there a reason that you consider re imagining the correct procedure to be a worthwhile pursuit ?
« Last Edit: October 03, 2022, 12:54:17 PM by Huzo »

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Re: NO TBS?
« Reply #19 on: October 03, 2022, 12:57:08 PM »
For the record..





This is the screw.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2022, 12:59:02 PM by Huzo »

Offline Kaladin

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Re: NO TBS?
« Reply #20 on: October 03, 2022, 12:58:46 PM »
Just that it works
First you look where it should be, then you look where it might be, then you look where it won't be, then you look where it mustn't be.  And when you find it you discover "that's where it should have been."
2007 Norge
2000 BMW R1150GS
2003 Jaguar XKR

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Re: NO TBS?
« Reply #21 on: October 03, 2022, 01:01:39 PM »
Just that it works
So does a round wheel, that’s why I’ve never thought of re imagining it.
But you can balance your TB’s with a set of pre war Avery scales if you wish, you won’t be disadvantaging anyone…(except yourself..).

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Re: NO TBS?
« Reply #22 on: October 03, 2022, 01:10:18 PM »
Another thing Sempy…
If you do your TB’s and balance before you’ve really gotten a solid grasp, even if it’s perfect you’ll ride off down the road with a gnawing sense of wonder what it would have been like if a proven expert had done it.
You’ll not know if it’s as good as it could have been..(even if it is).
Hence why I think it’s better to spend your initial hours, doing what is totally within your grasp while you’re studying up on the Beetle stuff. A slightly mal adjusted set of TB’s will not actually harm your bike, but if the pinion nut comes loose, it’ll look like this..


For the record, that’s less than perfect…
Greasing the swingarm pivot races and the drive splines is a vastly more pressing issue.

Offline SemperVee

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Re: NO TBS?
« Reply #23 on: October 03, 2022, 02:04:48 PM »
Another thing Sempy…
If you do your TB’s and balance before you’ve really gotten a solid grasp, even if it’s perfect you’ll ride off down the road with a gnawing sense of wonder what it would have been like if a proven expert had done it.
You’ll not know if it’s as good as it could have been..(even if it is).
Hence why I think it’s better to spend your initial hours, doing what is totally within your grasp while you’re studying up on the Beetle stuff. A slightly mal adjusted set of TB’s will not actually harm your bike, but if the pinion nut comes loose, it’ll look like this..


For the record, that’s less than perfect…
Greasing the swingarm pivot races and the drive splines is a vastly more pressing issue.


HUZO,  What is the Pinion nut you are speaking about?  Something in the shaft?  Remember I am a new guy here.  Thanks.
2007 MG Norge - Hi Ho Silver! - La Dolce Vita
CalSci Tall Windshield
Heli-Bars
Matris Fork + SAG set
Eibach Rear spring
Salamander HB ends
K&N  filter
StainTune pipe
Metal gas fltr
Givi Rear rack
Givi V46 Box and Rack
Startus Interuptus
Napoleon Mirrors
Grip Puppies

Offline 80CX100

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Re: NO TBS?
« Reply #24 on: October 03, 2022, 05:43:24 PM »
CX - THANKS!  That really brings understanding home with the file with pictures!  Brilliant.  I am getting a faint understanding now of what not to touch, even as I cannot see it underneath the tupperware.   Thanks!!!!

I can't take credit for that.  :grin:

I voiced the need for guidance and even though he's running incognito, he's always been generous sharing his knowledge with us to make sure our guzzis run right, literally thank GOD, he's the one that stepped up :grin:
2008 California Vintage
2003 V11 Lemans
2007 Griso 1100
1979 G5 & 1980 Lemans CX100
2010 Suzuki DR650 & 1978 SR500

In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. George Orwell

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Re: NO TBS?
« Reply #25 on: October 03, 2022, 06:51:11 PM »


HUZO,  What is the Pinion nut you are speaking about?  Something in the shaft?  Remember I am a new guy here.  Thanks.
When you take the rear bevelbox off to grease the drive splines..(as I know you will..) :wink: Have a look at the 1” or so, short section of shaft that disappears into the workings of the CARC…(that’s the thing with CARC on it).
If you look down into where the shaft disappears (so to speak), you’ll see a round nut that is threaded onto the shaft, it should be not able to turn.
If you sign up to Griso Ghetto, you can ask Pete Roper what he did to secure mine after the explosion and consequent repair.
I’d tell you, but I’m not across what he did fully, so best I don’t give instructions.

Offline SemperVee

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Re: NO TBS?
« Reply #26 on: October 06, 2022, 10:34:30 AM »
 Been buried into understanding, touching. torque tightening and checking all things Norge since last Saturday pick up.  *Huzo + resident experts = > 2-3 questions Please;   It rides  and handles fine with a fair bit of "snatchiness" in the throttle/shaft effect, but don't know what is normal.  I smell gas on idle (1000 rpm - Dash says I am getting 38-42 MPG when riding - perhaps normal smell?) .  PULLS like a freight train with barely end of clutch engagement (On my checklist to check/adjust Fluid is fine as it was changed 300 miles ago)  with 48,300 miles on it. 

I HAVE downloaded GuizziDiag onto my Macbook laptop and have it running currently including the reader and writer software.  Ready to progress with ordering cables.  need a KL-1 Box or something to attach mac to bike along with the Cables/LonElec to connect cable to computer then I am off and running on digesting the software inputs and perhaps ordering a beetle Map!!

*Is a TBS via Guzzidiag the same as Throttle Body balance?  If Throttle Body balance is needed manually then I need a set of carbsticks also then. 

**  HUZO - Previous owner did tune up 300 miles before sale so I am not excited to open the CARC etc until then but if nothing is wrong/No Disconcerting sounds and handling is fine. should I look to swing arm/CARC steering head bearing before winter sets in as I feel no irregularity - did you before the pinion let go?   Just put on new set of Roadsmart 3 tires and have  new brake pad drag to address this morning.

« Last Edit: October 06, 2022, 10:49:15 AM by SemperVee »
2007 MG Norge - Hi Ho Silver! - La Dolce Vita
CalSci Tall Windshield
Heli-Bars
Matris Fork + SAG set
Eibach Rear spring
Salamander HB ends
K&N  filter
StainTune pipe
Metal gas fltr
Givi Rear rack
Givi V46 Box and Rack
Startus Interuptus
Napoleon Mirrors
Grip Puppies

Online Huzo

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Re: NO TBS?
« Reply #27 on: October 07, 2022, 06:55:54 AM »
Ok, I’ll let better heads than mine comment on Guzzidiag, but sounds like you’ve done well.
I would let the steering g head bearings go without a worry, because even if they are shagged, it won’t hurt the bike.
As for the CARC, of course it’s up to you, but I can tell you that mine was perfect at the start of the I’ll fated ride, and 400 km later, was screaming like a stuck pig…!
If the nut backs off for whatever reason, the damage will be immediate. However in the interests of balance, mine did 194,000 before it happened.

It’s like I said before…
“Ya’ gotta’ ask yourself
Do ya’ feel lucky…
Well do ya’…”

Offline SemperVee

  • My life will be told in MC people and experiences more than anything else.
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Re: NO TBS?
« Reply #28 on: October 07, 2022, 09:28:55 AM »
Ok, I’ll let better heads than mine comment on Guzzidiag, but sounds like you’ve done well.
I would let the steering g head bearings go without a worry, because even if they are shagged, it won’t hurt the bike.
As for the CARC, of course it’s up to you, but I can tell you that mine was perfect at the start of the I’ll fated ride, and 400 km later, was screaming like a stuck pig…!
If the nut backs off for whatever reason, the damage will be immediate. However in the interests of balance, mine did 194,000 before it happened.

It’s like I said before…
“Ya’ gotta’ ask yourself
Do ya’ feel lucky…
Well do ya’…”

    HUZO,   Do I feel lucky?  Matter of fact I think I do since becoming a Guzzista with the help of  generous people like you and this board, so YES!   :smiley:
2007 MG Norge - Hi Ho Silver! - La Dolce Vita
CalSci Tall Windshield
Heli-Bars
Matris Fork + SAG set
Eibach Rear spring
Salamander HB ends
K&N  filter
StainTune pipe
Metal gas fltr
Givi Rear rack
Givi V46 Box and Rack
Startus Interuptus
Napoleon Mirrors
Grip Puppies

Offline 80CX100

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Re: NO TBS?
« Reply #29 on: October 08, 2022, 10:37:05 PM »

*Is a TBS via Guzzidiag the same as Throttle Body balance?  If Throttle Body balance is needed manually then I need a set of carbsticks also then. 


     I just used a home made manometer, vinyl tubing, yard stick, thick oil of your choice (I used to use ATF but it was too slippery),,, if the intakes doesn't have vacum fittings, I picked up threaded fittings from Motion Pro? iirc
2008 California Vintage
2003 V11 Lemans
2007 Griso 1100
1979 G5 & 1980 Lemans CX100
2010 Suzuki DR650 & 1978 SR500

In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. George Orwell

 

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