Convert TC slipping, no visible flow in ATF tank?

[brider]

This is actually a follow-on to my Cal 2 Auto pump-drive multi-page post, where I ended it with installing a custom-ground pump hex shaft:

https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=120024.0

I got the whole thing back together and....wait for it....you read the title correctly.....it's "slipping" symptoms did NOT go away. 

Before I drove it away today I checked the oil level in thew tank and remarked on how not-fresh and kinda washed-out it looked, but went on a test drive anyway. Same low-power slipping, you Convert owners that have suffered failures know what I mean. I have suffered at least (4) failures now, so the symptoms & tactics to get home are familiar.

But this familiarity is what led me to suspect the pump drive initially. After completely re-freshing that mechanism, I know now I have another problem. Running on the center stand on fast idle and looking into the ATF tank with a flashlight, I see unhealthy-looking fluid, a few feeble bubbles, and almost RANDOM meandering circulation of the fluid. I was expecting a little more forceful circulation.

I don't have any in-line flow or pressure meters installed so I can't verify the flow in operation, but this smacks of a flow restriction. It IS possible to remove all external hoses and the cooler, and also the intake filter in the ATF tank and manually check for blockages, but beyond that, what could be the problem?

[chuck peterson]

TC

[brider]

TC

I don't recall hearing of a TC just failing like that......what is the mechanism of failure?

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Pressure relief valve in the timing cover? Weak or broken spring, ball not seating properly.

Hoses? When were they last replaced? Hose on the suction side collapsing?

Oil cooler blocked?

Might be a good time to install a pressure gauge.

[brider]

Pressure relief valve in the timing cover? Weak or broken spring, ball not seating properly.

Hoses? When were they last replaced? Hose on the suction side collapsing?

Oil cooler blocked?

Might be a good time to install a pressure gauge.

All good check-points, Charlie (hey.....Checkpoint Charlie, cold-war reference and I wasn't even trying...). The relief valve was dismantled, cleaned, bore inspected & cleaned out with compressed air, that's a pretty darn simple mechanism but...I'll circle back to that if all else checks out good.

I'll move forward with inspecting everything external that I can, but to confirm my suspicion that there is insufficient flow, SHOULD I be seeing a real flow in the tank while running, like I thought I should? Maybe that's a red herring and my TC really DID bite the dust.

This really sucks, it almost seems like I'm going to have to go down the path of installing flow & pressure guages, and I know it's been done before, but I'm at an age where I don't have the patience for it anymore, I just want to ride the damn thing. I honestly think a 5-sp swap would be less mentally taxing.

[bigbikerrick]

Hey BRider, thats a bummer its still slipping, but you are getting closer to finding the cause, and have ruled out the pump/hex as the problem. I would consider draining all the ATF, and dis connecting the lines, one by one,and try blowing some compressed air through them, looking for any restriction. Did your TC ever overheat, or "cook" the ATF , during previous episodes of slippage? I think in your case a temporary pressure gauge on the pump output line would be helpful. Some of these funky weird issues can sure be frustrating. Ive had times where I just have to walk away and leave it for a few days, then come back,and try again.
I am going to run mine, on the centerstand,and look in the ATF tank for flow, and will report back.
Rick

[brider]

I am going to run mine, on the centerstand,and look in the ATF tank for flow, and will report back.
Rick

THIS could be very useful info. I thought of taking a short video of mine, but figured I'd have trouble posting it. If you do this check, maybe see if you can take a short vid? If you can't post it, maybe we can PM e-mail addresses and send it to me that way. If you seen no flow also and yours is driving fine, then we'll know lack of visual flow in the tank isn't an indication of failure.

[jcctx]

Might the clutch for the 2 speed transmission be the culprit?????

[brider]

Might the clutch for the 2 speed transmission be the culprit?????

Now that's a GOOD question. The symptoms are VERY similar. Before this last go-round I asked a few of the experts off-line if this was typical of the Convert, and the consensus I got was the Convert clutch seldom wears out because it is used so seldom, but oil contamination can kill any clutch. AND, I found this old thread I started when the 'ol girl failed me back in 2015; note the last post:

https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=76540.0

[bigbikerrick]

Brider, I just came in from the garage making a video of my converts atf tank with it running. I tried to send it to my email so I could post it here, but I was unable to. It stated it was too big. Let me tell you, though. It was hard to show the inside of the tank/ fluid , even shining an led falshlight in there, it would block most of the opening for filming, and all the video showed was a pink hazy image where the fluid is. Here is what I saw, the fluid seemed not to move at all, there was no obvious" flow" or "current" or  real air bubbles in the tank. Revving the bike on the centerstand with the tire spinning, same thing, I could not discern any obvious fluid movement in the tank, just the upper surface of the clean, pink atf.  The only thing I could see was a few tiny "particulates" of some sort, possibly tiny air bubbles, that would slowly move from front to rear, in the fluid, when I  stuck the little flashlight deep in the hole.
I hope this helps
Rick D.

[brider]

Brider, I just came in from the garage making a video of my converts atf tank with it running. I tried to send it to my email so I could post it here, but I was unable to. It stated it was too big. Let me tell you, though. It was hard to show the inside of the tank/ fluid , even shining an led falshlight in there, it would block most of the opening for filming, and all the video showed was a pink hazy image where the fluid is. Here is what I saw, the fluid seemed not to move at all, there was no obvious" flow" or "current" or  real air bubbles in the tank. Revving the bike on the centerstand with the tire spinning, same thing, I could not discern any obvious fluid movement in the tank, just the upper surface of the clean, pink atf.  The only thing I could see was a few tiny "particulates" of some sort, possibly tiny air bubbles, that would slowly move from front to rear, in the fluid, when I  stuck the little flashlight deep in the hole.
I hope this helps
Rick D.

It helps immensely, Rick, Thanks! Intuition would tell me that you should see some real flow, but if your properly-operating Convert is showing what you described, that is exactly what mine looks like, and I'll take that as some faint hope!

[chuck peterson]

There is a very small metal disc that sits under the spring of the TC pressure valve in the front cover. It adjusts the pressure needed to pop the ball bearing, keeping the upper pressure in check…

I remember purchasing a couple of those.

Or maybe I am thinking of the one for the oil pressure valve

I both cases you’re measuring fluid pressure

I remember seeing instructions for measuring that flow with the front cover off and in your hands

Not enough? Add a disc to increase the spring rate…sooooo loooong ago…

I’ll check guzziology

[chuck peterson]

When you refilled it…Dr Dave suggests purging the system by not filling it all the way, just to the mark in the tank, run it on the centerstand, fill again

Not finding the notes about atf spring pressure

Was this TC ever cooked by trying to keep it going home? Dr Dave suggests it as a point of failure if so..

[chuck peterson]

Bronze bushing in place? Turned the right way?

[brider]

Bronze bushing? Little shims under the relief-valve spring? I don't recall any bronze bushing anywhere when I had the cover off and the pump in pieces on my bench, nor did I see any little shims under the spring in any of the (3) covers I have for reference. Sounds like a good idea, but definitely not a common source of adjustment or failure, I'd think. Can't rule it out, though, without a pressure measurement.

When I pulled the front cover off I tied the cooler up out of the way to NOT disconnect the lwr hose, and overall I lost almost no ATF fluid during the operation. So topping the tank was un-necessary, but that fluid definitely needs flushing. Never cooked the TC for any distance trying to nurse it home, always had enough drive at low rpm to get off the highway and putt the 1-mi home. Didn't notice this recent slippage until I pulled off the highway, I assume it was revving higher than normal @ 60-70 mph down the road, maybe that was enough to cook the TC?

[chuck peterson]

Bronze bushing…between gearbox and engine-converter..important to get it the right orientation





Little shims under the spring of the Atf pressure relief valve..P in the illustration…little tiny buggers..as the spring sag, full pressure isn’t maintained. You can get to it w/o removing the cover. Here is where you could attach a pressure gauge to measure the pressure on the whole system

Hope this helps!

Edit…check the surface that the ball bearing sits on too

[bigbikerrick]

Hey brider, I was wondering if you have made any further progress with the converts slipping issue?
Rick

[brider]

I decided that I'm going to push the bike aside (as well as I can, the thing is huge with the Calafia Fats bags and fairing) and spend my wrenching time on my Norge, which ALSO needs fixin'.

My long-term plan now is to convert it to a 5-sp. Yeah, I'll be sick missing the automatic, but I've had too much heartbreak and downtime over the 50k miles I've put on it, and have no more patience for the ATF system. I was hoping it would become one of those Autos that people ride for 100k miles with no problems, but this is just not the bike. I'd sell it if I thought I'd get at least $2k for it, but nobody in their right mind would pay $2k, or even $500 for a Convert with Convert un-resolved problems. And I can't part with it for $500, we've had some sweet rides together....

[bigbikerrick]

Good luck, with it brider, whatever direction you decide to take with the bike.   
Rick

[Bulldog9]

I'm by no means an expert, but I can't see any 'flow' of Trans Fluid in the Tank. I do have a temperature dipstick, and check it occasionally by removing the dipstick and looking for any froth or bubbles. I flogged my Convert this weekend trying to reveal any weakness in preparation for a trip in May, and all seems to be working well.

My understanding that all the ATF pump does is circulate the fluid through the convertor and cooler so the fluid in the convertor doesn't over heat.

At some point, if I have an issue with the stamped flywheel plate and hex drive for the pump that I will add a pressure gauge to the line between the pump and convertor to monitor pressure, but for now I am leaving it all alone. I have a cast/heavy flywheel plate and a hex piece (somewhere).

I would at least do this before setting aside. Bear with me as I ask/give some dumb questions and opinions.

1. Does it slip immediately when cold? If so, this could mean your convertor is either shot, OR is not full of fluid.
2. Have you confirmed that the pump is actually pumping fluid and is at the right pressure? (No idea what that should be)
3. If you don't want to cut into a line to test pressure, why not remove the line from the pump, stick it in a bucket and start the bike to confirm that it is pumping fluid.
4. Have you checked the 'Dry Clutch' pack? I've read of some cases where this was out of adjustment or was slipping. Also that it got gummed up and the plates stuck together. Is worth a look.
5. Have you run all the Guzziology TTPs? Tons of great info there.

Converts are special, and I understand your wanting to save it, but even if you convert (pardon the pun) to a 5 speed, you can keep the parts and hope for the future.

[brider]

I flogged my Convert this weekend trying to reveal any weakness in preparation for a trip in May, and all seems to be working well.

I also flogged mine for 20k+ miles prior to this current failure. 200 mi before this current failure I climbed to the top of Mt. Washington with it, low gear/high throttle just to get to the top, not a hint of slipping or overheating. 200 mi later on flat ground it failed.

 
1. Does it slip immediately when cold? If so, this could mean your convertor is either shot, OR is not full of fluid.

  Yep, slips right away, but not to the point that I can't leave the driveway, but there is no real horsepower behind the throttle.

 
2. Have you confirmed that the pump is actually pumping fluid and is at the right pressure? (No idea what that should be)

Nope. This is the stuff I no longer have patience to determine. I MIGHT just pull the pump outlet line since it's easy to do and verify pumping, but I'm not set up to do a pressure check. MAYBE if I could find a cool in-line digital pressure guage, that would be easy enough to install.

 
3. If you don't want to cut into a line to test pressure, why not remove the line from the pump, stick it in a bucket and start the bike to confirm that it is pumping fluid.

See above

4. Have you checked the 'Dry Clutch' pack? I've read of some cases where this was out of adjustment or was slipping. Also that it got gummed up and the plates stuck together. Is worth a look.

I've asked questions about this, and to be honest I can't rule it out, but it is behaving exactly like the previous 3 or 4 pump "issues" I've dealt with before. And if it got to the point that I had to crab it to replace/inspect the clutch, I'd go 5-sp anyway.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

"Going 5 spd" is going to take a lot of parts. Flywheel, clutch, transmission, driveshaft, rear drive and timing cover at the very least. It's rare that I open a 5 spd. that doesn't have issues that need to be corrected. 7/33 rear drives are getting a bit hard to find. You could be "jumping from the frying pan into the fire".

[brider]

"Going 5 spd" is going to take a lot of parts. Flywheel, clutch, transmission, driveshaft, rear drive and timing cover at the very least. It's rare that I open a 5 spd. that doesn't have issues that need to be corrected. 7/33 rear drives are getting a bit hard to find. You could be "jumping from the frying pan into the fire".

Yeah, but it's all KNOWN tech, Charlie. I have too many other irons in the fire to spend any more time trying to figure the Convert out. 4 times in 50+k miles means an average of 12.5k miles between "issues". Nope. I am partly ashamed of throwing in the towel but I'm also pissed at the design. I gotta let it sit for a few months at least, maybe I'll re-think it later.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Yeah, but it's all KNOWN tech, Charlie.

So is the Convert drive system. No magic, no tech derived from alien spaceships at Area 51 or anything. 

[brider]

So is the Convert drive system.

But when a 5-sp stops dead in the road and the engine is still running fine, it's pretty easy to deduce the cause! By forewarned: When I embark on my 5-sp swap I WILL be annoying you with build questions!