Author Topic: Crankshaft seizure problems with V7 II'S  (Read 44496 times)

Offline waxi

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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #120 on: May 08, 2017, 07:19:30 AM »
Dealer up here seems to think it only affects V7ii Stones.  I haven't yet heard of a Special or Racer having this issue, but please correct me if I am wrong.  Does it make sense that the Stones are the first off the assembly line??  Could that be why?

I wish he is right. For me it doesn't make sense. Aren't engines assembled independently of the type?
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Online Kev m

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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #121 on: May 08, 2017, 08:02:26 AM »
I wish he is right. For me it doesn't make sense. Aren't engines assembled independently of the type?

AFAIK, the engines are assembled independently, HOWEVER, they run the bikes down the assembly line in batches.

SO if there was a bad batch of motors waiting to be installed there's a decent chance they'd all get installed in the same model as that was what they were building that week/month.

I believe that's why the models typically arrived in batches too - i.e. the Stones (at least in 2013) all arrived in the US in December/Jan, while the Racers and Specials each arrived separately months later.

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Offline SportsterDoc

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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #122 on: May 08, 2017, 07:56:49 PM »
Took a shorter ride today (~140 miles).
Almost 2700 miles on the clock
A bit chilly (46 F) at 8,437 feet elevation at 11 AM, but pleasant walking around the Desert Wildlife Center at Corn Creek, earlier.
Photo is from 3 1/2 weeks ago (no camera today)

Although I am told it does not affect performance or life, I would prefer to have a quieter throughout bearing assembly.
Any ideas?



« Last Edit: May 08, 2017, 07:57:36 PM by SportsterDoc »
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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #123 on: May 08, 2017, 08:12:49 PM »
Is it the throw out bearing that makes noise on the smallblocks? ? ?
« Last Edit: May 08, 2017, 08:13:07 PM by Kev m »
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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #123 on: May 08, 2017, 08:12:49 PM »

Offline DaSwami

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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #124 on: May 08, 2017, 09:18:12 PM »
If VIN has anything to do with it, my the last 3 digits of my Stones were 208 and 280, the last three of my Special is 181

Offline Muzz

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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #125 on: May 08, 2017, 10:42:53 PM »
Is it the throw out bearing that makes noise on the smallblocks? ? ?

I must confess that I don't know that Kev, the fact that it goes quiet when I pull the clutch in would tend to suggest that.
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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #126 on: May 08, 2017, 11:53:26 PM »
Won't be the bearing, even if they fail they fail silently, it's not like a car clutch thrust bearing. Most likely reason for noise will be the rather ragged tickover of the MUIG3 equipped bikes in stock trim with the lambda on. The fuel is trimmed very lean and the stepper doesn't cope well, especially when cold. Add in the 270-450 firing patern and you'll get a fair bit of backlash between the primaries when in neutral with the clutch released. As soon as you engage the clutch the input shaft isn't being driven so no rapid speed changes to the shaft and no noise from backlash.

Pete

Offline Muzz

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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #127 on: May 09, 2017, 02:19:06 AM »
So the "rattle" for want of a better word is coming from the gearbox? I suppose the bell housing is acting as a sounding board.
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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #128 on: May 09, 2017, 02:27:47 AM »
Dunno about the bell housing acting as a sounding board but the 'Cement mixer full of bricks' noise is the shafts and pinions lashing about.

Pete

Offline Mr Pootle

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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #129 on: May 09, 2017, 02:55:49 AM »
There's a lot of you banging on about "the problem", but only a couple who've experienced it. Could it be a myth that's been built up because of the noise being made by those who've simply heard about it?
Perhaps someone more computer literate than I could set up a poll for V7ll owners so we can get an idea if the number of bikes and the number who've suffered this problem.

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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #130 on: May 09, 2017, 07:33:05 AM »
There's a lot of you banging on about "the problem", but only a couple who've experienced it. Could it be a myth that's been built up because of the noise being made by those who've simply heard about it?

I think the thread title IS the basic problem.

The thread title SUGGESTS there's an inherent problem with all V7 II's.

The reality is that the crankshaft for a FEW V7 II's (possibly only some Stones) was installed missing a thrust washer and will fail, and the failure manifests itself first with a clutch that won't stay in adjustment because the crankshaft is eating the block and walking backwards.

It's not a design defect, and I don't think it can be CAUSED clutch adjustment unless a severe preload setting on the lower clutch throwout arm can push the crankshaft forward into the block that direction, but even if that's true the simple answer would be to leave that alone since it rarely would NEED adjustment unless something else was wrong anyway.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2017, 08:55:00 AM by Kev m »
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Offline sib

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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #131 on: May 09, 2017, 08:03:41 AM »
Let's face it, the sky IS falling.  The end is near.  Repent and give up your worldly goods, especially your V7II's.
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Offline mtiberio

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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #132 on: May 09, 2017, 08:19:22 AM »
My local dealer who has done a few of these motor replacements says the motors that have the problem are very obvious, and it happens VERY early in life.
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Offline SportsterDoc

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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #133 on: May 09, 2017, 09:03:27 AM »
Dunno about the bell housing acting as a sounding board but the 'Cement mixer full of bricks' noise is the shafts and pinions lashing about.

Pete

I typically equate such noises with wear issues.   Is that unfounded in this case?
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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #134 on: May 09, 2017, 09:39:58 AM »
I typically equate such noises with wear issues.   Is that unfounded in this case?

Yes, the Guzzi smallblocks (and big blocks) both make noises from new.

The big blocks with the clutch pulled in, the smallblocks I think with the clutch released but shifter in neutral.

Neither are anything to worry about any more than the rattle of a Ducati dry clutch.



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Offline SportsterDoc

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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #135 on: May 09, 2017, 10:57:41 AM »
Yes, the Guzzi smallblocks (and big blocks) both make noises from new.

The big blocks with the clutch pulled in, the smallblocks I think with the clutch released but shifter in neutral.

Neither are anything to worry about any more than the rattle of a Ducati dry clutch.

Yes, clutch released, gearbox in neutral.   Signals in Las Vegas are L O N G.
As soon as I pull in the clutch, it sounds healthy.

When I pull into my driveway, moderately steep, I go into the garage from the side door and open the motorized roll up door from inside, then ride the bike to its parking space.   When I am in the garage, I can hear the rattle through the insulated roll-up door.

No know way to (reasonably) make it quieter?

Be interesting to see an internal video of what is shaking.   
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Penderic

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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #136 on: May 09, 2017, 07:30:37 PM »
Adjusting your gear train backlash will make that transmission seem a little quieter.  :boozing:


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Offline Muzz

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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #137 on: May 09, 2017, 07:45:01 PM »
Yes, the Guzzi smallblocks (and big blocks) both make noises from new.

The big blocks with the clutch pulled in, the smallblocks I think with the clutch released but shifter in neutral.

Neither are anything to worry about any more than the rattle of a Ducati dry clutch.

My 2003 2TB Breva has done it from new., not loud but ti is there. Clutch adjustment hardly varies.
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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #138 on: May 09, 2017, 08:48:07 PM »
Yes, clutch released, gearbox in neutral.   Signals in Las Vegas are L O N G.
As soon as I pull in the clutch, it sounds healthy.

When I pull into my driveway, moderately steep, I go into the garage from the side door and open the motorized roll up door from inside, then ride the bike to its parking space.   When I am in the garage, I can hear the rattle through the insulated roll-up door.

No know way to (reasonably) make it quieter?

Be interesting to see an internal video of what is shaking.

The twin plate clutch big blocks make a noise when the clutch is pulled in, the single plater's don't, either on the big or smallblocks.

As for understanding what is *shaking* it's really quite easy to visualise.

The engine is a 90 degree V twin with a shared crankpin. This means both connecting rods are on the one pin so the two pistons reach top dead centre 90 degrees apart. Being a four stroke engine the cycle of each cylinder occurs over a period of 720 degrees or two full revolutions of the crank and seeing as the cylinders are 90 degrees apart it means that the firing intervals can never be evenly spaced.

What happens at idle is the left cylinder fires accelerating the crank but as it rotates it then has to compress the charge for the right hand cylinder so it slows down again. After 270 degrees of crank rotation, (360 degrees minus ninety degrees.) the right cylinder fires once more accelerating the crank but it has further to turn and uses more energy before having to compress the next charge for the left hand cylinder. In fact it has to turn 450 degrees, (360 plus ninety degrees.) before the left hand cylinder fires again.

It is this uneven firing sequence that gives this motor design the lilting cadence we find so enjoyable but it does have a downside in the fact that not only does the crank, and anything connected to it, accelerate and decelerate constantly but it does it unevenly.

Now the symptoms can be masked by using a heavier flywheel. A flywheel is basically nothing more than a 'Battery' for kinetic energy. The greater it's mass the less effect the power surges will have on its speed. This though does have its downside too as more mass means it takes more energy to accelerate and it also takes longer for it to dump energy. This is why one of the 'Hot ticket' tuning mods on older Guzzis was/is to fit a lighter flywheel. It doesn't make any more power but it absorbs less and spins up and down quicker speeding up gear changes, (And boy do the old five speeds need all the help they can get there! :grin:).

Getting back to the subject in hand though with the smallblocks the clutch and flywheel assembly is comparatively light and at idle it will accelerate and decelerate appreciably over the engines firing sequence. When the clutch is not pulled in the input shaft will likewise be speeding up and slowing down along with the crank/clutch/flywheel and on the input shaft there is the input primary gear. It though engages with the intermediate shaft primary gear which also has mass and therefore inertia but it has absolutely no desire to accelerate and decelerate! All it really wants to do is sit still but if it's going to spin it will prefer to spin at a constant speed!

There has to be a bit of clearance between the teeth of the two gears so you have one that is wanting to speed up and slow down and one that wants to turn at a constant speed! Every time the input primary speeds up and slows down the teeth knock backward and forward and then there is the cascading effect of the shaft, other gears and dog clutches on the intermediate and output shafts that will all rattle and knock about in sympathy! No wonder the poxy thing makes a racket! :evil: Of course when you pull the clutch in it separates the crank and flywheel from the input shaft so the acceleration and deceleration of the gears stops and the whole thing goes quiet. See? Simple innit!

On many other engines the firing intervals are much more evenly spaced so the changes in crank speed are much less pronounced. An inline four for instance has one firing pulse every 180 degrees of crank rotation. An inline six one every sixty degrees. Therefore crank speed remains almost constant.

Pete

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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #139 on: May 09, 2017, 09:25:37 PM »
Thanks, Pete.
Really well done.
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Offline SportsterDoc

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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #140 on: May 10, 2017, 07:33:51 AM »
Thank you for the reply, Pete.
So it is the hammering of the gears at low RPM, when the input shaft is connected via the clutch, rather than that the throwout bearing.
It does go away (or I cannot hear it) at about 2,000 RPM and up.
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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #141 on: May 10, 2017, 07:43:45 AM »
So the only REAL problem with the 6-speed V7's is that I don't have one.  :boozing:
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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #142 on: May 10, 2017, 11:43:59 AM »
Thank you for the reply, Pete.
So it is the hammering of the gears at low RPM, when the input shaft is connected via the clutch, rather than that the throwout bearing.
It does go away (or I cannot hear it) at about 2,000 RPM and up.

'Hammering' is a poor choice of wording as it implies that it might be causing damage, it won't, it's just a host of components rattling around. This isn't helped by the fact that you're running a single TB and the lambda is trimming the fuel to a critically lean level so there is a tendency for the engine to periodically eight and twelve stroke, it's one of the reasons for the higher target idle than the earlier machines.

The MUIG3 is a fairly horrid and crude device. As a controller it quite simply doesn't control very well! :laugh:

Pete

Offline Demar

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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #143 on: May 18, 2017, 01:13:57 PM »
If VIN has anything to do with it, my the last 3 digits of my Stones were 208 and 280, the last three of my Special is 181

Swami....
How is your Special doing? Any updates.... how many miles do you have on it now?

Thanks,
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Offline DaSwami

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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #144 on: May 18, 2017, 06:00:46 PM »
Swami....
How is your Special doing? Any updates.... how many miles do you have on it now?

Thanks,
Rick

So far so good!    535 miles about ready for it's first service.  When I hold the clutch in no change in idle, I've been watching that like a hawk.  Runs strong, idles in neutral fine, 170 miles on a tank and no low fuel light yet  :boozing:...and I'm a load

Offline Demar

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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #145 on: May 18, 2017, 06:23:47 PM »
So far so good!    535 miles about ready for it's first service.  When I hold the clutch in no change in idle, I've been watching that like a hawk.  Runs strong, idles in neutral fine, 170 miles on a tank and no low fuel light yet  :boozing:...and I'm a load

Thanks for the update. Yesterday my daughter bought a 2016 V7 Special. I rode it 125 miles home from the dealer. She had a deposit for a Stone but when we got to the dealer the blue Special was marked down $400 from 3 weeks ago. That was close enough to the Stone price that she switched. She said she had preferred the Special but it was initially $800 more than the Stone. Her vin ends in 184 so it may be the same batch build as yours.

I mentioned the engine shim problem to the dealer and he said their dealership has had no V7 engine defects.
I'd much rather ask for forgiveness than ask for permission.

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Offline SportsterDoc

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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #146 on: May 19, 2017, 06:57:17 PM »
After running an errand to the southern part of Las Vegas Valley, I went north to Indian Springs, then Cold Creek, Sawmill picnic area on Lee Canyon, Deer Creek Road, Kyle Canyon to the summit (55F), then home, after a refueling stop.

Took the camera, hoping to see some wild horses...and I did!

Used 1/2 tank of fuel:  170 miles on the trip odometer
3.4 gallons = 50 MPG (typical for climbing grades, esp. going to 8,500 feet)

Over 3,000 miles on the clock in 3 months









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Offline DaSwami

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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #147 on: July 23, 2017, 07:05:49 AM »
Just a two-month bump.  Nearly 900 miles now with no issues on my V7II special (other than those caused by the dealer).  Easily my favorite bike out of my growing fleet.  Looking to buy another one before they are gone forever.  Any other possibly new insights as to which VINs or models are affected?  Things have been thankfully quiet on this front!

Offline SportsterDoc

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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #148 on: July 23, 2017, 05:53:39 PM »
Just a two-month bump.  Nearly 900 miles now with no issues on my V7II special (other than those caused by the dealer)...

4300+ miles since Feb and no issues...other than side stand is starting to need lubrication.
Last trip to Red Rock Canyon, then Lovell Canyon was 54 MPG.
Rear tire is about 1/2 worn.
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Re: Problems With 6-Speed V7's
« Reply #149 on: July 23, 2017, 06:55:37 PM »
4300+ miles since Feb and no issues...other than side stand is starting to need lubrication.
Last trip to Red Rock Canyon, then Lovell Canyon was 54 MPG.
Rear tire is about 1/2 worn.
So I take it you're still digging it right?
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