Spinning back wheel for TDC

[stokes]

I've read a few threads about adjusting the valves on my V7II and am having trouble getting the bike into 6th gear to facilitate spinning the rear wheel to find TDC.I cant seem to get it past 3rd gear.Is there some trick to this?
Also,when re-torquing the head nuts at the first service interval,is it necessary to loosen them first,then tighten them to the specs?

[Huzo]

 Ummmm... No.

[fotoguzzi]

if you pull the spark plugs you should be able to turn in 3rd gear..

[Tom]

 :1: on removing the spark-plugs.  Makes the whole procedure easier.  What are you using to visually check the piston going up?  Really long arms??? 

[stokes]

I do plan on pulling the plugs,I had the bike up on the stand changing fluids and tried shifting up to 6th and it doesnt seem to go beyond 3rd.Everything I've read says to go to 6th.I'll give it a shot in 3rd,if that proves to be too dificult,should I try to force it past 3rd?Yeah,Tom,my arms are about 4 1/2 ft long,I've got a 12ft wingspan should be no problem there.What about the hed nuts?Should they be loosened or just checked with a torque wrench at the specified torque?

[Bisbonian]

A lot of times you have to lever the shifter up and then roll the wheel at the same time to get into the gears. Not easy if you're by yourself.

[ridingron]

I'm not familiar with the bike or the specifics of the procedure. Can you set on the bike and roll it back and forth while shifting the gears into 6th? Then move on to the looking for TDC by rolling the wheel? I think the only thing 6th gear has to do with it is it makes it easier to spin the motor over by turning the wheel.

[Idontwantapickle]

I've read a few threads about adjusting the valves on my V7II and am having trouble getting the bike into 6th gear to facilitate spinning the rear wheel to find TDC.I cant seem to get it past 3rd gear.Is there some trick to this?
Also,when re-torquing the head nuts at the first service interval,is it necessary to loosen them first,then tighten them to the specs?

Stokes,
Just rock the bike forward and back as you sit on it and change gears, works for up or down. 6th gear is used to make it easier to turn. If you retorque the heads loosen only one nut at a time about a quarter turn and then tighten to the specified torque. Do the retorque first as it will affect valve clearance.
Watch this, it might help. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSO0dphXx-w
 The procedure is nearly identical for big and small block engines.

Hunter

[fotoguzzi]

on Big Block motors you can take off the alternator cover on the front and turn it over with a hex head wrench, probably same on SB. that is easier than rotating the rear wheel and trying to find the flywheel marks at the same time.

[davedel44]

OK.  On my 2013 V7 I can take off the alternator cover and turn the bolt.  Not possible with V7ll or V7lll?  How about V9s?  Inguiring minds want to know.

Seems like a lot of new guzziti are learning to wrench on their new bikes. 

Good on 'em.

Dave
Galveston

[Tom]

Removal of the spark plugs allows you to use 2nd or 3rd gear.  I've turn the crankcase nut myself.  It's easier.

[stokes]

On this bike the whole front of the engine has to come off,not just an alt cover like most bikes.I read one thread when I did a search here that you couldnt or it was harder to turn the crank at the alternator because it is "wet"?The manual I have says to do it from the alternator and align the marks on the timing gear.Seems it would be easier to do it by spinning the wheel.I know 6th gear makes it easier to spin.I've seen that vid,Hunter,just couldnt get it past 3rd,he doesnt seem to do anything special to get it in gear.When you say "rock it forward and back" should the clutch be pulled or leave it engaged?Thanks for all the replies,guys.

[Kev m]

Ummmm... No?

Ummmm... Actually, yes!

[Kev m]

Stokes, it's not (so much) easier to SPIN, but easier to spin with some precision.

EDIT for clarity - yes it's both - but I think the more important point is the precision.

In lower gears the engine spins a bunch of times for each spin of the rear wheel, that's what makes more thrust. (EDIT) So mechanically the engine has the advantage over the wheel/bike.

In higher gears the engine spins fewer times for each time the rear wheel spins so it's easier to align the crankshaft where you want it. (EDIT) So mechanically you have the advantage of turning the wheel further for less movement/effort on the motor.

[Kev m]

OK.  On my 2013 V7 I can take off the alternator cover and turn the bolt.  Not possible with V7ll or V7lll?  How about V9s?  Inguiring minds want to know.

Seems like a lot of new guzziti are learning to wrench on their new bikes. 

Good on 'em.

Dave
Galveston

For the record, the last year of the 1TB V7 mkI and all years of the V7II, V7III, and V9 use a wet alternator (runs in engine oil) so you can't access it to spin the crank.

[davedel44]

For the record, the last year of the 1TB V7 mkI and all years of the V7II, V7III, and V9 use a wet alternator (runs in engine oil) so you can't access it to spin the crank.

Thanks Kev

Dave
Galveston

[stokes]

For the record, the last year of the 1TB V7 mkI and all years of the V7II, V7III, and V9 use a wet alternator (runs in engine oil) so you can't access it to spin the crank.

I believe it was your post I was refering to about this.Why does my manual say to open the front of the engine and turn the crank there? Not that I'm doubting you,and I'd rather not remove the front of the engine.The manual explains this way of doing it in a section about completely disassembling the engine.Is there something I'm missing?

[alanp]

Watch this, it might help. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSO0dphXx-w
 The procedure is nearly identical for big and small block engines.

Hunter

Question regarding that video.  When finding TDC, you don't see how the rear wheel is turned, but there is a very "ratchety" , "click, click, click" as the piston comes up to TDC in little tiny steps. 
What is going on there?  When I turn the rear wheel it is a very smooth motion and the piston gradually moves up, but not in little precision steps like that.  How did he do that???

[fatbob]

It's always easier to spin the back wheel to rotate the engine. I don't use the clutch, I just apply pressure to the shifter while bumping the wheel. That gets things aligned to shift. I like to stick a long plastic rod down the plug hole to feel for tdc. Be careful that you are on the compression stroke. I don't even uncover the timing peephole.

[Huzo]

Ummmm... Actually, yes!

Kevin... The original question was, why can't I get the bike higher than 3rd gear by rocking the wheel and changing up by hand, was it not? And that was what my response was to. Naturally it's better in a higher gear because you're using the taller ratio of top gear,to your advantage, however turning the crank by using the front nut is "nicer".

[Huzo]

Stokes, it's not easier to SPIN, but easier to spin with some precision.

In lower gears the engine spins a bunch of times for each spin of the rear wheel, that's what makes more thrust.

In higher gears the engine spins fewer times for each time the rear wheel spins so it's easier to align the crankshaft where you want it.

BS Kev. It is easier physically to spin the crank by turning the rear wheel by hand, if you are in a higher gear, and the crank turns slower for a given rear wheel speed in top than first, so therefore you can do it more accurately in sixth. Are you going to dispute this? And why can't he get it past 3rd? Obviously if he went for a ride and selected sixth the and pulled the clutch and rolled to a stop, it'd be in sixth, so why not at home on the stand?

[Kev m]

I believe it was your post I was refering to about this.Why does my manual say to open the front of the engine and turn the crank there? Not that I'm doubting you,and I'd rather not remove the front of the engine.The manual explains this way of doing it in a section about completely disassembling the engine.Is there something I'm missing?

Opening the front cover USED to be the right way to do it, right up to the first few years of the MKi 1TB motors because they had DRY alternators so the cover was just a plastic piece with 4 bolts and no gasket since it didn't hold in any oil. It's how I do it on my 13's, and how Cam/Jay do it on their 14's with dry alternators.

But starting with the last year of the MK1 1TB and all subsequent smallblocks (V7II, V7III, V9) Guzzi went to a WET alternator so the front cover is a different sealed piece that holds oil. No longer makes sense to do it that way.

Also - see my sober correction/clarification of last night's post. It's both easier to spin and easier to spin with precision in a higher gear:

Stokes, it's not (so much) easier to SPIN, but easier to spin with some precision.

EDIT for clarity - yes it's both - but I think the more important point is the precision.

In lower gears the engine spins a bunch of times for each spin of the rear wheel, that's what makes more thrust. (EDIT) So mechanically the engine has the advantage over the wheel/bike.

In higher gears the engine spins fewer times for each time the rear wheel spins so it's easier to align the crankshaft where you want it. (EDIT) So mechanically you have the advantage of turning the wheel further for less movement/effort on the motor.

Lastly - if you didn't get the answer last night, the shift mechanism in the bike won't just continually reset without some movement of the input/output shafts. So if you get it to third and it doesn't want to shift up again, then spin the rear wheel a little (by hand or rock the bike) and you should be able to shift up again. Repeat until you get where you want (5th or 6th).

[Kev m]

It's always easier to spin the back wheel to rotate the engine.

That's way too much of a generalization.

Ironically that's the method I use on my Harleys when checking primary chains. But only because there's no easy way to put a wrench on the crankshaft.

But there's a reason most service manuals I've ever come across mentions using a wrench or socket on a crankshaft when rotating a motor for valve adjustments - because IF the access is there, it's easier.

It was the "best" was on my Jackal, on my Breva 1100, and my earlier than the OP's smallblock.

I had the added advantage of making small timing marks with a sharpie to note TDC on the left and right cylinders. That was handy too.

[Kev m]

Kevin... The original question was, why can't I get the bike higher than 3rd gear by rocking the wheel and changing up by hand, was it not? And that was what my response was to.

Ah, sorry, then you might consider clarifying cause there were actually like what, two or three different questions in the OP no?

BS Kev.

Lighten up Francis.

It is easier physically to spin the crank by turning the rear wheel by hand, if you are in a higher gear, and the crank turns slower for a given rear wheel speed in top than first, so therefore you can do it more accurately in sixth. Are you going to dispute this?

Sorry, see sober edit/correction of my post.

That said, if you'd actually READ the rest of my post you'd see that I WAS saying the same thing physically.

I should have said that the physical effort wasn't the priority in MY MIND, but the precision was, but of course it's really both and for the same reason, the mechanical advantage.

And why can't he get it past 3rd? Obviously if he went for a ride and selected sixth the and pulled the clutch and rolled to a stop, it'd be in sixth, so why not at home on the stand?

I didn't answer that last night because I thought someone else had done it. But I've added an answer for that now too.

Happy? 

[Vagrant]

this is one more case of an accident waiting to happen. he needs to get some help from a competent mechanic or take it to the dealer.

[stokes]

this is one more case of an accident waiting to happen. he needs to get some help from a competent mechanic or take it to the dealer.

Because I couldnt get the bike into 6th gear?The valve adjust itself is easier than most of the bikes I've done before,including the KZ 650 which needed to have the cams removed to change out the "under the bucket" shims.All the bikes I've owned in the past 45 yrs have had an easy access to the crank with a simple small cover that didnt spill any oil unlike this bike.I've never had to spin the tire to rotate the engine.At my age I would rather not have to work on my bike anymore,which is why I got rid of my '80 KZ 1000 and bought this one.I'll be damned if I'm gonna ride 90 miles to pay the dealer over 300 bucks to change the oil and adjust the valves.

Kevin... The original question was, why can't I get the bike higher than 3rd gear by rocking the wheel and changing up by hand, was it not? And that was what my response was to. Naturally it's better in a higher gear because you're using the taller ratio of top gear,to your advantage, however turning the crank by using the front nut is "nicer".

Not my original question at all.Never mentioned anything about "rocking the wheel",which turns out to be the solution to my original question.I understood what Kevin said in his first response,there was no need to "correct" your response,Kev,I got it the first time.Thanks for your replies and to all who replied.

[Huzo]

I've read a few threads about adjusting the valves on my V7II and am having trouble getting the bike into 6th gear to facilitate spinning the rear wheel to find TDC.I cant seem to get it past 3rd gear.Is there some trick to this?

Well I don't know what you meant by this bit then! Some of the best and most interesting posts I've read here are when Kev calls someone to task. Yet when I did it it seemed I needed to lighten up! I'm happy to, but where did I go wrong?

[n3303j]

Bike on the centerstand in top gear and plugs out it's easy enough to position yourself on the starboard side and put your left hand on the rear wheel and face to the timing mark window. Bumping the wheel using cumulative slop it's easy to move the flywheel a millimeter (or less) at a time. I try to finish rotation in the "run" direction.

[stokes]

Huzo,I wasnt "calling you to task" at all just pointing out that when you said this "The original question was, why can't I get the bike higher than 3rd gear by rocking the wheel and changing up by hand, was it not?" you were misquoting me.I never mentioned "rocking the wheel" and it did in fact,turn out to be the answer to my question.I asked if there was "some trick to it" and the "trick" turns out to be rocking or bumping the wheel while shifting.
n3303j,I dont think there is a "timing mark window" on this bike,the only reference I see in the manual to a timing mark is on the cam chain gear in the front of the engine with the front cover removed.Am I missing something here?

[Idontwantapickle]

Question regarding that video.  When finding TDC, you don't see how the rear wheel is turned, but there is a very "ratchety" , "click, click, click" as the piston comes up to TDC in little tiny steps. 
What is going on there?  When I turn the rear wheel it is a very smooth motion and the piston gradually moves up, but not in little precision steps like that.  How did he do that???

Í am bumping the wheel forward by hand,   not turning it steadily. The mic is very sensitive to the clank this makes in the drivetrain.
Hunter