Author Topic: V7 II Broke Down, Metal Flakes in Crankcase = Poops.  (Read 6276 times)

Online Kev m

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Re: V7 II Broke Down, Metal Flakes in Crankcase = Poops.
« Reply #30 on: September 22, 2022, 09:44:31 AM »
On all smallblocks they make 1 bearing or wear shim (that's all you get) crank sits in block halves. Once worn out of new limits it's toast. Same with end play once past limit of new shim (crank worn) weld it up & turn it to new spec. If block is worn it's toast.
It is not like a big block with different size mains.

But I assume if the crank and block are good, he can replace the bearings and check clearances yes?



Vagrant, could you elaborate? Do you mean from a logistic / technical angle, or just cost / worth the time?

Watching the 750 Nevada tech videos posted on Greg’s site, I’m not seeing anything that stands out to my admittedly less-than-experienced eyes as not doable at home. Certainly, I’ll have to make sure that I take some careful measurements, but that’s not unlike other engine rebuilds.

He MIGHT be confusing the V7II with the V7III, the crankshaft and bearings are notably absent from the V7III parts book suggesting they are not available.
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Re: V7 II Broke Down, Metal Flakes in Crankcase = Poops.
« Reply #31 on: September 22, 2022, 05:00:45 PM »
Yes, but is the rod stamped steel also like the new 85 v7?
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Offline guzzisteve

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Re: V7 II Broke Down, Metal Flakes in Crankcase = Poops.
« Reply #32 on: September 22, 2022, 07:34:38 PM »
But I assume if the crank and block are good, he can replace the bearings and check clearances yes?



He MIGHT be confusing the V7II with the V7III, the crankshaft and bearings are notably absent from the V7III parts book suggesting they are not available.

Yes Kev, should be good in a perfect world.
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Re: V7 II Broke Down, Metal Flakes in Crankcase = Poops.
« Reply #33 on: September 22, 2022, 07:43:00 PM »
Yes, but is the rod stamped steel also like the new 85 v7?

I don’t think so?



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Re: V7 II Broke Down, Metal Flakes in Crankcase = Poops.
« Reply #33 on: September 22, 2022, 07:43:00 PM »

Online Kev m

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Re: V7 II Broke Down, Metal Flakes in Crankcase = Poops.
« Reply #34 on: September 22, 2022, 08:22:25 PM »
Yes, but is the rod stamped steel also like the new 85 v7?

I haven't gotten it all straight yet but back with the V7 MkI and V7II the crank is replaceable and the con rods use bolted big ends with replaceable bearings.

I feel like someone said starting with the V7III or maybe a later V7 they went to pressed cranks. That doesn't necessarily mean the rods are non-replaceable but they could be. Again the fact that there's no crank/rod assembly in the parts book for the V7III doesn't give me warm and fuzzies about such.
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Re: V7 II Broke Down, Metal Flakes in Crankcase = Poops.
« Reply #35 on: September 22, 2022, 08:58:28 PM »
Con rods appear to be replaceable:

V7 II Parts diagram:




V7 III:




I was planning to measure both mine and those from the donor engine, hoping at least two if not all still measure within spec 
« Last Edit: September 23, 2022, 07:35:16 AM by Dirk_S »
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Offline Tom H

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Re: V7 II Broke Down, Metal Flakes in Crankcase = Poops.
« Reply #36 on: September 22, 2022, 10:52:08 PM »
The thrust washers in the pics are from a motor that died. If you look close you can see how badly worn out the ONE washer is. The other washer is the mangled bit of metal just to the right of the worn one. Oddly enough, the mangled one was much thicker than the worn out one that was still in position.

Clickey on the picey.




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Re: V7 II Broke Down, Metal Flakes in Crankcase = Poops.
« Reply #37 on: September 22, 2022, 11:07:43 PM »
The thrust washers in the pics are from a motor that died. If you look close you can see how badly worn out the ONE washer is. The other washer is the mangled bit of metal just to the right of the worn one. Oddly enough, the mangled one was much thicker than the worn out one that was still in position.

Clickey on the picey.




Tom

And...?
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Offline Tom H

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Re: V7 II Broke Down, Metal Flakes in Crankcase = Poops.
« Reply #38 on: September 22, 2022, 11:11:29 PM »
I guess that if his old ones looked anything like the pics, no need to measure the old ones.

Tom
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Re: V7 II Broke Down, Metal Flakes in Crankcase = Poops.
« Reply #39 on: September 23, 2022, 06:41:25 AM »
I guess that if his old ones looked anything like the pics, no need to measure the old ones.

Thanks Tom. I’m planning to replace all the old bearings with new ones.

Were the shaft and crankcase still good in that instance? I’m a little nervous—with so many flakes in my crankcase, I’m really hoping the crankcase wasn’t damaged, either to mine or the donor engine.

Footnote: Looks like the same thrust bearings continue to be used in the new 850s, so they clearly figured the design was not faulty through this Great (V7 II Crankshaft) Recession.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2022, 07:36:02 AM by Dirk_S »
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Re: V7 II Broke Down, Metal Flakes in Crankcase = Poops.
« Reply #40 on: September 23, 2022, 07:34:32 AM »
I looked at the parts books one more time, and noticed that they changed the crankshaft partway through the V7 III. The V7 III Special shows 2 different assemblies—the former, similar to my year, has parts that can be purchased individually:



« Last Edit: September 23, 2022, 07:36:50 AM by Dirk_S »
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Re: V7 II Broke Down, Metal Flakes in Crankcase = Poops.
« Reply #41 on: September 23, 2022, 07:47:17 AM »
I looked at the parts books one more time, and noticed that they changed the crankshaft partway through the V7 III. The V7 III Special shows 2 different assemblies—the former, similar to my year, has parts that can be purchased individually:





That's the pressed crank to which I was referring.

I also wonder if the old style crank REALLY was used on an Hemi heads or if the literature just lagged behind actual changes.

IF IT WAS used AND THE BLOCK is the same, it might suggest that a newer bike could use an older crank.

But there's a lot of things that have to be the same for that to work, including the piston pins for the two different pistons (heron head and hemi head).

Anything is possible though it just seems unlikely.

<shrugs>
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Re: V7 II Broke Down, Metal Flakes in Crankcase = Poops.
« Reply #42 on: September 23, 2022, 07:58:35 AM »
That's the pressed crank to which I was referring.

I also wonder if the old style crank REALLY was used on an Hemi heads or if the literature just lagged behind actual changes.

Nah. Different part numbers.

I didn’t mean to suggest they were the same, but simply that they were available individually, similar to previous models. Here are the V7 II crankshaft parts for reference:



« Last Edit: September 23, 2022, 07:59:59 AM by Dirk_S »
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Re: V7 II Broke Down, Metal Flakes in Crankcase = Poops.
« Reply #43 on: September 23, 2022, 08:28:33 AM »
Nah. Different part numbers.

I didn’t mean to suggest they were the same, but simply that they were available individually, similar to previous models. Here are the V7 II crankshaft parts for reference:






Ahhhh, looking closer is interesting.

So they went through the trouble of a new crankshaft for the Hemi models which includes a selection of main and rod bearings in different sizes, then they continued to use the same dimensions for the mains and simply switched to a pressed crank (meaning you lost ability to service the rods/rod bearings).
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Re: V7 II Broke Down, Metal Flakes in Crankcase = Poops.
« Reply #44 on: September 23, 2022, 08:37:08 AM »
Gotcha—so the big end doesn’t split apart in the later models. And mine is in the clear with regard to rebuildable, albeit with only one size bearings all around.

Current: ‘16 Guzzi V7 II Stone, ‘78 BMW R80/7

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Re: V7 II Broke Down, Metal Flakes in Crankcase = Poops.
« Reply #45 on: September 23, 2022, 09:48:56 AM »
A lot of other makes have used pressed together cranks. Currently, Harley as an example, which are serviceble. Why isn't the pressed MG crank able to be taken apart, damaged parts replaced and pressed back together? It was and is standard practice with two stroke engines.
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Re: V7 II Broke Down, Metal Flakes in Crankcase = Poops.
« Reply #46 on: September 23, 2022, 10:01:09 AM »
A lot of other makes have used pressed together cranks. Currently, Harley as an example, which are serviceble. Why isn't the pressed MG crank able to be taken apart, damaged parts replaced and pressed back together? It was and is standard practice with two stroke engines.
kk

To be clear I'm sure it can be taken apart.

BUT the parts books show no replacement parts, so I suspect the OEM is considering it unserviceable.

DAMN seconds too late lol.

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Offline Tom H

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Re: V7 II Broke Down, Metal Flakes in Crankcase = Poops.
« Reply #47 on: September 23, 2022, 10:50:17 AM »
The inside of the block "looked" OK. The outside not so good. The case at the rear main and the cam plug were being eaten away at.





Tom
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Re: V7 II Broke Down, Metal Flakes in Crankcase = Poops.
« Reply #48 on: September 23, 2022, 11:01:45 AM »
 You think the small number of bikes MG builds gets a dedicated crank bearing set up? Or perhaps they are off the shelf items used by another manufacturer of bikes or whatever?
  Thinking of the future for Guzzi...
when the supply of Triumph 650-750 rod bearings got thin..Some Triumph guys got Mahle to manafactue new Clevite 77 type bearing shells in their modern USA factory...The retail price of about 70 bucks for two rods is quite reasonable considering the low sales....
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Re: V7 II Broke Down, Metal Flakes in Crankcase = Poops.
« Reply #49 on: September 24, 2022, 04:43:06 PM »
The inside of the block "looked" OK. The outside not so good. The case at the rear main and the cam plug were being eaten away at.





Tom

I can’t tell from the photo, but if there is still sufficient metal for the rear main seal to press in and seal well I’m not sure I’d worry about it

Offline Tom H

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Re: V7 II Broke Down, Metal Flakes in Crankcase = Poops.
« Reply #50 on: September 24, 2022, 04:51:11 PM »
You could fit a new main seal, but the cam plug was the concern. That and the end float of the crank :grin:

Tom
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Re: V7 II Broke Down, Metal Flakes in Crankcase = Poops.
« Reply #51 on: September 24, 2022, 07:27:34 PM »
Motor dropped and in the kitch—I mean, my new workshop.







Next step—clean up the workspace before beginning tear-down.

PS—I broke one of the plastic nipples off the evap canister… making me consider doing away with it and replacing with a catch can.
Current: ‘16 Guzzi V7 II Stone, ‘78 BMW R80/7

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Re: V7 II Broke Down, Metal Flakes in Crankcase = Poops.
« Reply #52 on: October 02, 2022, 06:16:45 PM »
I’ve got the clutch off, now working on the alternator. Trying to get that rotor bolt off.





I tried the technique of screwing in two bolts on the clutch side and jamming the rotation with a wrench. but was afraid to put a lot of oomf into it.




Wouldn’t break loose. Do I need to give it more oomf?

Please don’t tell me it needs more oomf. It’s emotionally taxing.

« Last Edit: October 02, 2022, 06:17:55 PM by Dirk_S »
Current: ‘16 Guzzi V7 II Stone, ‘78 BMW R80/7

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Offline n3303j

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Re: V7 II Broke Down, Metal Flakes in Crankcase = Poops.
« Reply #53 on: October 02, 2022, 09:35:36 PM »
Took all the timing gears off my T3 (108 ft/lb) with an air wrench (rattle gun) without locking any part of the drive.

Of course I had to lock the crank to torque the nuts back to 108 ft/lbs at reassembly.

Bender recommended a prybar through the hole where the starter motor fits. I wedged a parallel bar between the ring gear and the housing in such a way that efficiently distributed the forces.
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Re: V7 II Broke Down, Metal Flakes in Crankcase = Poops.
« Reply #54 on: October 03, 2022, 07:55:20 AM »
Con rods appear to be replaceable:

V7 III:




I was planning to measure both mine and those from the donor engine, hoping at least two if not all still measure within spec

this photo seems weird to my eyes,  Is that two con rods or one singe "v" shaped con rod ?
I don't like the fact that there are no conn rod bearings listed, however as these are non split rods, a new set can easily be produced at your local machine shop..   so no worries....
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Re: V7 II Broke Down, Metal Flakes in Crankcase = Poops.
« Reply #55 on: October 03, 2022, 07:59:42 AM »
this photo seems weird to my eyes,  Is that two con rods or one singe "v" shaped con rod ?
I don't like the fact that there are no conn rod bearings listed, however as these are non split rods, a new set can easily be produced at your local machine shop..   so no worries....

Looks like, but not sure. That’s the V7 III. Mine’s a V7 II, which does have replaceable con-rods.
Current: ‘16 Guzzi V7 II Stone, ‘78 BMW R80/7

Previous: ‘15 Ural Gear Up, ‘77 Kawasaki KZ400 Special, ‘78 Honda CX500S, ‘80 Honda CX500D, ‘11 Suzuki TU250X

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Re: V7 II Broke Down, Metal Flakes in Crankcase = Poops.
« Reply #56 on: October 03, 2022, 02:06:25 PM »
I don’t know who Mike is, but I like his method for jamming the crankshaft rotation. I considered throwing the clutch and flywheel on to make a better rotational jamming scenario than without them attached, but in this video you’ll see that he uses a rod through the small end of the con-rod that seats against a block of wood resting on the head:

https://youtu.be/9gvGtpn-GYM
« Last Edit: October 03, 2022, 02:41:19 PM by Dirk_S »
Current: ‘16 Guzzi V7 II Stone, ‘78 BMW R80/7

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Offline n3303j

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Re: V7 II Broke Down, Metal Flakes in Crankcase = Poops.
« Reply #57 on: October 03, 2022, 02:34:33 PM »
That'll git 'er done real fine.
(As long as the engine is in that stage of disassembly.)





Like my V11 at the moment.
20% different compression port to starboard.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2022, 02:38:23 PM by n3303j »
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Re: V7 II Broke Down, Metal Flakes in Crankcase = Poops.
« Reply #58 on: October 03, 2022, 05:32:24 PM »
Got the bolt off using the ‘rod-through-the-small-end’ technique. It needed a little coaxing with a hammer on the axle wrench.





The rotor came off fairly easily with the rotor puller tool. Surprisingly easily, actually. I put the spacer in, screwed the puller over the external threads, and the rotor popped off without having to use the inner screw. Isn’t it supposed to be tough to pull them? Or is the point of the puller and screw to ensure that the crankshaft doesn’t get nicked?

Once the rotor was off, I inspected things and found a few places of wear. 2 radial abrasions above and below the shaft, and one drilled between the two shafts. Not sure how they got worn though. Any ideas? Intentionally made?






And from the other side:




Addendum: Looking at other V7 crankcases on eBay, they all seem to have the hole (oil vapor breather perhaps?) and wear marks around the shaft. Guess they’re from the factory and inconsequential.

————————————————-

Like my V11 at the moment.
20% different compression port to starboard.

That sounds like a fun fall/winter project. Hope the Ural is good to go for cold weather riding.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2022, 06:30:37 PM by Dirk_S »
Current: ‘16 Guzzi V7 II Stone, ‘78 BMW R80/7

Previous: ‘15 Ural Gear Up, ‘77 Kawasaki KZ400 Special, ‘78 Honda CX500S, ‘80 Honda CX500D, ‘11 Suzuki TU250X

Offline n3303j

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Re: V7 II Broke Down, Metal Flakes in Crankcase = Poops.
« Reply #59 on: October 03, 2022, 06:30:13 PM »
Fun fall/winter project? Heck I'm figuring 8 hours more labor after the parts arrive and the heads are back from the shop.

But the '77 and the Ural are both up and running. It's my policy to have at least two of the three in service at all times. Life without motorcycles is hard. :grin:
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