Pressure test

[kirby1923]

Are you the aeroplane bloke ?

Ha!
That's the rumor!

We are not talking airplanes , were not talking motorbikes...we are talking Guzzis'

Carry on at your own peril!

BTW,
Riddle me this please:

What is the minimum and maximum oil pressure for the Goose better yet IS there one??

So I can write it down!

Thanx,

:-)

[M0T0Geezer]

Great Oil Thread, Huzo!

Thanks for posting it (even if it gets you get banned for life).

Us 2007 Norge riders (*) are randomly plagued with bad oil pressure sensor units and self-schatting oil pumps, sometimes either or both. 

My oil light often comes on at cold start but goes away by the end of the block.  If it's a bad sensor I don't care.  Actual low oil pressure is too scary (and $$$) to contemplate.  It would be good to know how and what to hook up to get an actual reading.

(*) As Joe Bonamassa sings, "Take Mercy On My Self-Inflicted Wounds..."

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SU0JEvoM1k0

'Geezer

[Huzo]

Ha!
That's the rumor!

We are not talking airplanes , were not talking motorbikes...we are talking Guzzis'

Carry on at your own peril!

BTW,
Riddle me this please:

What is the minimum and maximum oil pressure for the Goose better yet IS there one??

So I can write it down!

Thanx,

:-)

No that’s fine, but I just flinch when people question the need to know if your oil pressure is on the way out.

[Huzo]

Great Oil Thread, Huzo!

Thanks for posting it (even if it gets you get banned for life).

Us 2007 Norge riders (*) are randomly plagued with bad oil pressure sensor units and self-schatting oil pumps, sometimes either or both. 

My oil light often comes on at cold start but goes away by the end of the block.  If it's a bad sensor I don't care.  Actual low oil pressure is too scary (and $$$) to contemplate.  It would be good to know how and what to hook up to get an actual reading.

(*) As Joe Bonamassa sings, "Take Mercy On My Self-Inflicted Wounds..."

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SU0JEvoM1k0

'Geezer

Yes, all I want todo is satisfy myself that the pump is up to spec, especially as I own a bike that is close to the suspect period.

[oldbike54]

Are you the aeroplane bloke ?

 He is THE aeroplane bloke 

 Dusty

[stubbie]

I got an oil pressure gauge attached to the bars of my Le Mans. Just a cheap car type with a brass fitting at the oil pressure switch. Attached by previous owner.

[Zinfan]

One day the Kid, who is a *very* good mechanic, thought it might be a good idea to find out what the oil temp was running in his Sport. He called MG Cycles, about one of the temperature dipsticks and Gordon said, "Sure, I'll sell you one, but you probably won't like what you see. Then, what are you going to do about it?"
 
That Gordon Shirley  puts the hard sell on a guy..
The Kid said, "Ok, I get your point. Never mind.."

I bought one for my '13 V7 and yes it really gets up there on the scale however the reason I bought it was to replace the difficult to remove stock dipstick and for that it works well.  Just ignore the gauge and check the oil.

[Huzo]

No, no bloody no..!
Checking the level will not prove the efficacy or otherwise of the pump.
I’m not asking for advice on whether it’s necessary or not..
I just want advice like Old Jock gave.

[Old Jock]

I can understand we are all different, I cannot understand why anybody would NOT want to know, it's an anathema to me.

I get a Magni Australia, something I've wanted for around 15 years and probably pay over the odds for it.

I replace the oil pump (known weakness on Hi Cams) and on the first ride out, I notice pressure is a bit low when cold.

I get snagged in some traffic when heading out of town.

Oil presure light comes on, gauge confirms, around 8psi, perhaps less, kill the engine and coast into a carpark, oil temp, 120C (close to 250F).

Wait for it to cool down and ride home with eye on pressure the whole way, yes it was dropping and temp rising, despite not much traffic on the way back

Without knowing pressure and temp, God knows what I would have done, especially given that the switches are notoriously unrelaible.

Ignored it? Wreck the engine, best case, or siezed the engine and thrown myself and expensive motorcycle down the road perhaps under a bus or into roadside furniture.

EDIT...................I should also add at the time of the "event" the bike was still running absolutely fine, no noise, nor any other indication thay my day was about to be ruined 

Apologies for OFF TOPIC

[Huzo]

I can understand we are all different, I cannot understand why anybody would NOT want to know, it's an anathema to me.

I get a Magni Australia, something I've wanted for around 15 years and probably pay over the odds for it.

I replace the oil pump (known weakness on Hi Cams) and on the first ride out, I notice pressure is a bit low when cold.

I get snagged in some traffic when heading out of town.

Oil presure light comes on, gauge confirms, around 8psi, perhaps less, kill the engine and coast into a carpark, oil temp, 120C (close to 250F).

Wait for it to cool down and ride home with eye on pressure the whole way, yes it was dropping and temp rising, despite not much traffic on the way back

Without knowing pressure and temp, God knows what I would have done, especially given that the switches are notoriously unrelaible.

Ignored it? Wreck the engine, best case, or siezed the engine and thrown myself and expensive motorcycle down the road perhaps under a bus or into roadside furniture.

Apologies for OFF TOPIC

Couldn’t be more ON topic.

[kirby1923]

No that’s fine, but I just flinch when people question the need to know if your oil pressure is on the way out.

I generally don't flog a dead horse but..

Always found you Oz guys to have a good sense of humor, a bit strange perhaps but...

Seems a nerve or two have been struck..

My comment was a humorous?? way to point out that when hot the Guzzi ( at least mine) can have shockingly low pressure when hot at idle..whats the limit, when to you call it too low?

Can you read between the lines?

And the temp can get just as out of hand high, but how high is too high..do you know?

You want to worry about it..so be it, your on the ground so it shouldn't effect your longevity!(except to worry yourself to death)

For me ..I'd rather not know and the pressure any more on my guzzy it just brings anxiety and the gauge that was installed on my CX by someone will remain even though I put a piece of tape over the face so I'm not shocked.

I guess I just am not going to worry, if it runs I'll ride . if it breaks (too frequently) I'll fix it...

Cheers form the north...

:-)

[Huzo]

Ok mate we’ll discard the horse carcass and carry on..
We do have a good sense of humour I hope, but the point was a bit obscure.
Anyway.
Old Jock has addressed the question well as I intended it to be. Also Kirby, if you’re indifferent as to the importance of knowing whether your oil pressure is suspect, then I can see your point as you put it.
If you’re “joking” then I get it because it didn’t seem like something a guy with your pedigree would say. If it was a Lycoming or Continental, I’m sure you’d not hold the same “devil may care” attitude...
But then again I forgot, you weren’t serious..
Now, we must not let this degenerate.

[John A]

I prefer a light to a guage but not if I suspect a problem.  The light has to be dead reliable,  I've been useing a different switch, out of I don't remember what .  At the time I had a good auto parts person and was able to pick one by its operating pressure.  I think it has 1/8" pipe thread , adapter to go in block, from a guage manufacturer . Oil pumps do fail, relief valves do stick.

[Huzo]

Yes John.
I don’t think mine has failed in this instance, but I wonder if it has worn such that it’s output is becoming marginal. As I mentioned, it is fine when the oil is cold and after the engine has begun to warm and from then on. I don’t say that it’s shagged, just getting tired..(like most of us).
If a reliable gauge shows it to be ok, I’ll disconnect it and put it on the shelf.

[kirby1923]

My last thought..
Aircraft engines have stated limits..red lines. Of course if you hit a red line for some reason you deal with usually by landing, and because of my aviation background I learn the limits for operation and follow those.

Don't want to see pressures and temps that would scare me in flight but are apparently normal for the guzzi.

Guzzi has no stated limits that I have seen, but I suppose the idiot light for pressure is on and I have no idea where that comes to play..what pressure does that illuminate?
If the designers of the engine were worried about temp they would have put a guage on the machine with a "don't exceed " temp. What is that red line?

So you covering yourself with more information with pressure and temp gauges w/o stated limits
so except for your personal comfort level what good are they?

If the oil light come on, shut it off, If you feel it too hot..shut I off.

There is absolutely NO comparison to aircraft operation, which is governed "by the numbers".

You do what have to do.

I'm done..

[Huzo]

Ok mate, I’ll have to manage somehow without your input but I’ll try..
IF the “rattle” is not co incidental with a drop in pressure for that minute or so, then that is the stone motherless end of that line of reasoning for me, but I’ll be requiring a quantifiable indication.
Maybe there’s some end float on the rockers before the head warms enough to close the tolerances, or the spring on the piss weak cam chain tensioner is too meagre, or I’m not setting the valves close enough, or...or...
I did think the shaft on the oil pump had a bit more play than I thought desirable, when I had it to bits to fit the new camchain.
I might go in there again when I’ve got the forks out @ 180,000.

[kirby1923]

A final note about "knocking"
My beemer developed a light knock at idle at about 150K and it turned out to me the rocker float...it was only about .002 out of limits, adjusted same , goodbye knock!

German engineering..a mystery but accurate.
BTW ,
No pressure or temp gauges on my R1150.( also no stated limits), I don't want to know..

[John A]

The warning light, Dad called it an idiot light, should be labeled "replace main bearings "
It's usually too late by the time it comes on.

[Murray]

Two valve norge? at that distance you should be on about the third timing chain put a timing light on it at idle and see if its jumping around, I would suggest if its low oil pressure causing rattling sounds it would of gone horribly wrong by now, could also be something like rocker pivots that have a bit more play than they once did. I can't remember if the oil pump was rebuilt when we did the motor at 140 000kms on the sport, it would of at least been checked. As others have said taping the sender switch or removing it is probably easiest.

[Huzo]

Two valve norge? at that distance you should be on about the third timing chain put a timing light on it at idle and see if its jumping around, I would suggest if its low oil pressure causing rattling sounds it would of gone horribly wrong by now, could also be something like rocker pivots that have a bit more play than they once did. I can't remember if the oil pump was rebuilt when we did the motor at 140 000kms on the sport, it would of at least been checked. As others have said taping the sender switch or removing it is probably easiest.

Thank you Murray.
Now we’re back on track.

[Huzo]

A final note about "knocking"
My beemer developed a light knock at idle at about 150K and it turned out to me the rocker float...it was only about .002 out of limits, adjusted same , goodbye knock!

German engineering..a mystery but accurate.
BTW ,
No pressure or temp gauges on my R1150.( also no stated limits), I don't want to know..

Rocker end float Kirby or lash ?
I sort of wondered if the rocker/spindle clearance was opening up.
That would not concern me unduly if it were.
On the topic of valve lash clearance..
When checking the .004” and .006” readings, what do y’all do regarding holding the rocker against the pushrod to close up all the looseness during readings ?
I may be setting them a bit wide, but I don’t think so.

[Huzo]

Two valve norge? at that distance you should be on about the third timing chain put a timing light on it at idle and see if its jumping around

I asked Pete at the 100,000 or so mark, if there was anything pre emptive that I should do just out of good manners.
He said he thought it’d be asking for rings at some point, but after I told him that I routinely have no need to top up the oil between 10,000 k intervals he stated that I should leave it to “....” alone..!
Although he thought a camchain would not go astray.
So I did that.

[kirby1923]

Rocker end float Kirby or lash ?
I sort of wondered if the rocker/spindle clearance was opening up.
That would not concern me unduly if it were.
On the topic of valve lash clearance..
When checking the .004” and .006” readings, what do y’all do regarding holding the rocker against the pushrod to close up all the looseness during readings ?
I may be setting them a bit wide, but I don’t think so.

Float.

When you run the feeler gauge thru it should be tight enough to offer a bit of residence and that a assures  you that the pushrod is seated to the rocker.

Running a slight bit loose is not a bad thing. I run my CX on the loose side 'cause it can get damn
hot! with no cooler. 
I have not had to change the setting on my beemer at all in the last 50K (have 280K+) I bought it new in '04.

[Old Jock]

I hope it was NOT me who offended Kirby

As far as the numbers, no there is nothing written by Guzzi

However I knew from the get go with the Oz something was not quite right, from info I've gleaned from my other bikes and it did prove precsient.

I did not mean to be controversial, all I was trying to say is if you gather the data, then you may (& it's just that) have a chance of spotting a problem earlier.

Reet am gettin ma coat, I'll only post up again if it's specifically on "how to" stuff or the like, nuff armchair philosophy

[Chuck in Indiana]

My 2 cents..
When Gordon told the Kid that he wouldn't like what he sees, he meant exactly that. He knows the Kid is an aircraft mechanic.
Guzzi *doesn't* specify a max oil temp or min or max oil pressure like an aircraft engine. You will probably see higher oil temps than you expect at times, and lower pressures at idle, too. As we all know, though, they seem to be bullet proof.

If I were Huzo, I'd put a temporary oil pressure gauge on it to see if the rattle correlates with oil pressure. End of question.

I have a different problem right now with my airplane. It is showing a little too *much* oil pressure. I asked the Kid what to do and he said to put a temporary oil pressure gauge on it.  "Those Piper two in ones are notoriously inaccurate as they age, and it's hard for me to imagine a high time engine like that having too much oil pressure, even if it *does* have a new oil pump."

[kirby1923]

I hope it was NOT me who offended Kirby

As far as the numbers, no there is nothing written by Guzzi

However I knew from the get go with the Oz something was not quite right, from info I've gleaned from my other bikes and it did prove precsient.

I did not mean to be controversial, all I was trying to say is if you gather the data, then you may (& it's just that) have a chance of spotting a problem earlier.

Reet am gettin ma coat, I'll only post up again if it's specifically on "how to" stuff or the like, nuff armchair philosophy

Absolutely NO offence , it was a discussion.

Being an aviator I cringe at the oil pressure on my CX sometimes and the temp rig I had was retired post hast...enough to make a grown man cry!!!

The old Guzzi is tough bird, I just decided I would just ride and worry not as w/ me old HD.]

If there is a good reason to check the pressure..well do it.

:-)

[PJPR01]

Huzo...you could also get a dipstick which has a thermometer on it (got one on the Scura), I'm sure someone makes one for the Norge as well, that way you could also see the oil temperature and correlate that to the rattle and pressure once you get the pressure measured.

Interesting...one of my cars (sports car) has an oil pressure gauge, the other doesn't.  Probably since it's meant to be driven in a more spirited manner or has more "race characteristics"...but aside from seeing it in normal operation...at idle, it drops, under load it increases, but is independent of oil temperature...

[Moto]

I would install a VDO electric oil pressure sender, the kind that also includes the grounding circuit for the idiot light. Then I would just attach the wires from the VDO gauge to it whenever I wanted a reading, and remove it otherwise.

I'd put a bracket on the back of the gauge so I could attach it to my handlebars, like my diagnostic voltmeter.

Looking at my T3, the oil pressure sender is easily accessible, just inside and forward of the left cylinder.

When I used the same setup on my old Yamaha Vision I found it important to carefully measure the thread on the existing sensor that I replaced. They're not all NPT. For the Vision it turned out to be a similar-looking British thread. VDO has senders for different kinds.

Easy enough.

Moto

[Moto]

There is this specification in the Chilton Motorcycle Repair manual, ca. 1976:

"[The oil pressure relive valve] is a maintenance-free item, which must be replaced if it fails to function properly.

"The standard maximum pressure is 35.6--42.7 psi (2.5--3.0 kg/sq cm) for the 700cc engine, and 54.0--60.0 psi (3.9-4.2 kg/sq cm) for all 750 and 850cc models."

(The kg/sq cm to psi conversions are off for the 850cc values. 3.9 converts to 55.5 and 4.2 converts to 59.7. The 750cc conversions are correct per www.sensorone.com. I presume the original values would have been in kg/sq cm.)

So if you see a value much above 60 psi you should be replacing the relief valve, at least on the early 750's and 850's. This is off-topic from the original question.

Moto

[Huzo]

There is this specification in the Chilton Motorcycle Repair manual, ca. 1976:

"[The oil pressure relive valve] is a maintenance-free item, which must be replaced if it fails to function properly.

"The standard maximum pressure is 35.6--42.7 psi (2.5--3.0 kg/sq cm) for the 700cc engine, and 54.0--60.0 psi (3.9-4.2 kg/sq cm) for all 750 and 850cc models."

(The kg/sq cm to psi conversions are off for the 850cc values. 3.9 converts to 55.5 and 4.2 converts to 59.7. The 750cc conversions are correct per www.sensorone.com. I presume the original values would have been in kg/sq cm.)

So if you see a value much above 60 psi you should be replacing the relief valve, at least on the early 750's and 850's. This is off-topic from the original question.

Moto

Good though..
Thanks.