Computer issue NGC

[rodekyll]

These are all good procedures and thoughts for the situations they apply to.  I think nuking the opsys and doing system rebuilds is overkill for what is probably a straight-ahead hardware failure of the usb cluster.

$0.02

[father guzzi obrian]

Chuck, how long have you had this PC? Windows updates every Tuesday.  I don't know what top secret stuff you have, but I know you have it P:)  However, moving all of your "interesting files" on to a portable hard drive will allow you to get all of the many Windows updates you have missed as well as download current drivers.... Just sayin, that's what I would do, not knowing what files you are concerned about.  If you go this route, be sure to don your tinfoil hat during all attempts!  Good luck bud ;-T

[Stormtruck2]

Stupid computer luddite question. Is cloning a drive the same as imaging it?

[Wayne Orwig]

Is cloning a drive the same as imaging it?

To me, cloning a drive is creating a new bootable drive to replace the original. Imaging a drive uses something like Macrium Reflect, or Ghost, and is basically creating a huge file that contains the entire contents of a hard drive that can be stored on a backup disk. So you can save numerous drive images on a backup drive and restore and image later.
So I can take drive A, make an image and store it on drive B. Then take the image from drive B and restore that to a new drive C. So drive C is a clone of A, with a backup on B.

That is MY meaning for the terms, which may not be accurate.

[rodekyll]

I'd use Wayne's definition, except that an image doesn't need to be compressed or written to a huge, single file.  Backup images usually are for the reasons Wayne gave (+ security), but archive images might not be.


Imaging a drive makes a copy of the directory structure and the files on it according to 'flags' on the files.  Those flags can hide files from the imaging process and/or deny access/scramble/exclude things like checkbits, license bits, encryption keys, etc.  It can be thought of as a combine doing a more-or-less thorough harvest of a field -- certainly getting the good stuff and low hangers. -- and blowing them into the hopper with the wheat and chaff mixed together.

Cloning a drive takes everything in the directory structure and files as well as the boot state and 'format' of the disk in an ISO (bootable) manner.  It preserves not only the files, but the exact arrangement and placement of the files with respect to their physical location on the original hard drive.  It's like an orderly, OCD tornado that sucks up not only the crop in the field, but the field itself, the fences, and the access roads.

So you can image a drive, shove it into the computer and it won't boot.  You can clone the same drive, boot it, and unless the computer knows the serial number of the original hard drive, it will continue on as though the original is installed.

It's possible to clone drives without using cloning software.  If you make a mirror array of two hard drives and then break the mirror, you have cloned the drive.

[charlie b]

Is there special software for cloning?  I want to do that for our computers, as backups to the backups.

[Kentktk]

[charlie b]

BTDT.  I'm back to PC's  :D

[Wayne Orwig]

Is there special software for cloning?  I want to do that for our computers, as backups to the backups.

I've used Macrium Reflect.

[threebrits]

These are all good procedures and thoughts for the situations they apply to.  I think nuking the opsys and doing system rebuilds is overkill for what is probably a straight-ahead hardware failure of the usb cluster.

$0.02

His advice is worth more than 2 cents.  Reinstalling Windows for a USB cluster failure is almost certainly going to be a huge waste of time.  I've never seen a USB cluster fail, until this last year, where I've seen it on handful of new computers.   Your options are: warranty repair - even if they ask you to send it to a depot they almost always have you pull the drive first, add a USB card - get a USB 3.0 card, or a get a USB hub - which is my least favorite just because I don't like an extra device with a bunch of cables getting tangled up.

The other great advice is to keep all your critical files on an external hard drive.  You can probably get them all on a thumb drive (or two for a backup copy).  If you have USB 3.0 ports get a good quality USB 3.0 thumb drive.  Save the tin-hat for political pundits selling you their version of trouble in River City.  You need to connect this computer to the internet from time to time to get security updates and in a convenient way so that it will get done.

If the data is that critical I think I still have a roll of "Top Secret SIOP/ESI" classification tape I stole from the underground at Stratcom 20 years ago.  You can put it on the thumb drive with all your critical data.  :)

[rboe]

The two apps I've used to wipe a drive booted from 1)Floppy, 2) Cd or 3)Flash drive. Killdisk was one, can't recall the second. Killdisk could do multiple passes as the OS remained in system memory (it did not boot off the HD) so no issues.

I don't worry about the NSA or anyone else trying to spend the money to recover something I wiped as I'm not a prime target for that sort of expense of time and money - it's not all that easy to attempt to recover a wiped drive so the motivation needs to be there. Naturally; if you are considered a prime person of interest then by all means melt that sucker down! :)

It's certainly worth calling Acer to see if they will replace the motherboard for you (either sending you the part or a tech on site to do it). If they want you to send it in, ask if you can keep the hard drive while doing so. If not, show them the finger and put in a card with USB expansion ports as advised earlier.

Typically for the Windows built in recovery system, you need to create a bootable CD (it's part of the script, all you have to do is supply the CD and a magic marker to ID it) and an external hard drive. Then do the backups. If you need to recover it offers up several levels of recovery if memory serves, boot off the CD, attach the external HD and keep the coffee fresh. :)

For your machine that won't see the Internet consider making an image of it (I find images faster to do that recovery - but then I've done a lot more images than recoveries so I'm probably biased) and have an external hard drive will all your info on it. This hard drive (hopefully two, one to use, one for back up) can move from machine to machine so it won't matter what happens to the computer (as long as the external HD is not attached when evil strikes), your data is never on it.

[rbond]

I am a hardware tech for the City where I live. Here is an idea, use a live version Linux to test all of your USB ports. If they all magically work, then Windows has a software problem. If this is the case, you can you the file manager in Linux to copy any of your files to an external on extra internal hard drive by drag and drop. Then do a system restore to put in fresh out of the box condition.

[Chuck in Indiana]

You need to connect this computer to the internet from time to time to get security updates

If it's not on the internet, why would it need to get security updates? <scratching head>
I have a clean install of XP that hasn't been on the internet for freakin ever that drives my cnc mill. Still solid, runs for weeks at at time without rebooting..

[canuguzzi]

If it's not on the internet, why would it need to get security updates? <scratching head>
I have a clean install of XP that hasn't been on the internet for freakin ever that drives my cnc mill. Still solid, runs for weeks at at time without rebooting..

So long as you don't use it to access the Internet no biggie.

Here is the thing though, if that computer accesses your LAN (say, home network) even if it is only to print something, it becomes vulnerable because it is essentially available to access the Internet. The way it works is that your PC could access the Internet, you just choose not to. If that is the case, then what you can do is disable all traffic to your computer from/to the Internet. Most new routers allow this.

If there are no connections to the Internet from your computer, security updates aren't needed.

Just never put that computer on the Internet because it will take literally seconds for it to get jacked.

[rodekyll]

So long as you don't use it to access the Internet no biggie.

Here is the thing though, if that computer accesses your LAN (say, home network) even if it is only to print something, it becomes vulnerable because it is essentially available to access the Internet. The way it works is that your PC could access the Internet, you just choose not to. If that is the case, then what you can do is disable all traffic to your computer from/to the Internet. Most new routers allow this.

If there are no connections to the Internet from your computer, security updates aren't needed.

Just never put that computer on the Internet because it will take literally seconds for it to get jacked.

If you don't give your tcp/ip a gateway or dns server it can do local area but can't do internet.

[rodekyll]

Looking at some of the 'overkill' suggestions, I see a similarity with a job in the shop.  The customer got a new version of some software.  The instructions said to remove the old version before installing the new one.  Instead of doing the straight-ahead uninstall of the program through control panel, he popped in the system disk and erased the hard drive on the premise that it was the most secure way to delete the old software.  After a friend came in and did an unsuccessful system repair they called me to get the data back without telling me what had already been done, only that after trying to load the new program the computer wouldn't boot.  When I put the puzzle together and asked specifically if they'd used the system disks to uninstall the program they 'fessed up to their mistake.  No, they're not getting their Quicken data back.  The computer will be returned 'as new from the factory.'

[canuguzzi]

If you don't give your tcp/ip a gateway or dns server it can do local area but can't do internet.

True but other computers on the network that do access the Internet have access to the non-internet access computer. That is the vector for malware, infections and so on. The local machines won't need a gateway to do the dirty deed.

If one PC on the network accesses the Internet, all should be updated for security and have anti-virus protection or it is like having nothing at all.

A shared thumb drive can also become the vector, even if the computer never accesses the Internet and isn't on a LAN. There are plenty of attacks out there than are just malicious, they don't need to call home they just trash your PC.

[rodekyll]

I'll buy that logic.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Ok, got around to calling acer today and talked with the nice Indian guy that I couldn't understand.  ~; Even with my hearing aids turned up on radar, it was tough, but we managed. Uninstalled/reinstalled the USB stuff, and both ports worked. Unless I plugged in the backup drive. Then, they were both dead again, so I'm assuming the backup drive is the issue.
I need a backup drive. Can I *asume* the one that I have is calling for too much power? Do I need to shoot it?  ;D Should I get a powered hub?
Questions questions..

[Wayne Orwig]

Ok, got around to calling acer today and talked with the nice Indian guy that I couldn't understand.  ~; Even with my hearing aids turned up on radar, it was tough, but we managed. Uninstalled/reinstalled the USB stuff, and both ports worked. Unless I plugged in the backup drive. Then, they were both dead again, so I'm assuming the backup drive is the issue.
I need a backup drive. Can I *asume* the one that I have is calling for too much power? Do I need to shoot it?  ;D Should I get a powered hub?
Questions questions..

Wow, you did good getting positive info from India.  :bow
I normally need a hearing aid with a 'slow your voice down' feature to understand them.  :D

Yes, I would assume you need an external POWERED hub, to get enough power to the drive. If you have a USB 3.0 port in the PC, try that. They are higher powered.

 

[rodekyll]

+1 -- you're frying the ports with the drive.

There are two styles of external backup drives -- laptop and desktop.  Laptop style is powerd by usb -- generally with a 3-ended cable that allows you to tap power from two usb clusters.  Desktop style has its own wall plug for power. 

[canuguzzi]

Ok, got around to calling acer today and talked with the nice Indian guy that I couldn't understand.  ~; Even with my hearing aids turned up on radar, it was tough, but we managed. Uninstalled/reinstalled the USB stuff, and both ports worked. Unless I plugged in the backup drive. Then, they were both dead again, so I'm assuming the backup drive is the issue.
I need a backup drive. Can I *asume* the one that I have is calling for too much power? Do I need to shoot it?  ;D Should I get a powered hub?
Questions questions..

There are many options besides a powered USB hub. First you need to determine what your data storage needs are. Without that info you could end up spending more money than you need.

Just because the backup drive you have isn't suitable doesn't mean you need a powered USB Hub. Many solid state drive backup devices are compatible with low power USB ports.

You said it was your backup drive causing the problems. Does it have a power port? Many do and if so, just get a compatible power adapter for it and you'll be good to go.

Even if that is a no-go, you can use many of the SSD based backup drives made that do have a power port or are designed to work off the low power USB ports in some laptops.

Another solution is a SD Card reader. Those use SD cards (very small) like those in your smartphone if you have one or commonly found in cameras. With a fast SD Card, they function extremely well as a backup solution and are very small and do not need an external power source or USB hub.

Good SD Cards are very reliable, faster than you'll need and very portable.

My recommendation is to keep it simple. Find something that works with your laptop, not yet another multi-wired device to kludge things together.

If you have a Costco nearby, they sell the SSD based backups right there. You will not need a powered USB hub. One thing for the entire solution.

http://www.costco.com/.product.100095388.html?cm_sp=RichRelevance-_-categorypageHorizontalTop-_-PersonalizedClickCPInCategory&cm_vc=categorypageHorizontalTop|PersonalizedClickCPInCategory

The above is a 1.5 Terabyte drive which would allow you to easily back up multiple computers or run many backup, keeping a schedule to reduce a single backup failure issue. Pay little attention to the reviews from MAC users, they're the same type who can't hold an iPhone properly. ::)

Or

http://www.costco.com/PNY-256-GB-Turbo-3.0-USB-Flash-Drive.product.100163213.html


As with any USB device, before removing it from the computer, make sure to "eject" it if you are using Windows.

You probably don't need 256GB of storage so you can downsize the product accordingly.

With either of those, you have a reliable backup solution that is very portable and can be used with multiple computers as well as for storing other data.

[canuguzzi]

One more way, if you are feeling adventurous ( I can understand why you wouldn't):

If you have a smartphone and it can take a large capacity SD memory card, say a 128 gig, you can simply connect the phone to your laptop via USB cable and use that as your backup device. I've been doing that for my personal laptop for a number of years. The phone acts like a USB backup drive and doesn't need any additional power but even if it runs low on juice, you already have the power adapter so there is nothing to buy except a larger SD memory card if the one in your phone is too small.

If you use an iPhone though, that isn't going to work without a make work program.

I did forget to mention earlier than those thumbdrives can also be had as wireless devices. Now you don't plug anything into anywhere. Once the thumbdrive is charged, it connects to your laptop wirelessly and you can use it as if it were plugged into your laptop. They are available via Amazon and many other places, just buy a good name such as this one:

http://www.sandisk.com/products/wireless/flash-drive/

About $40-$80 depending on capacity. You can use it with any computer too.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Hey Norge pilot, Wayne, RK, thanks. It's not a laptop, though, it's a desktop if that matters. The drive I'm using is a Costco special, a My Passport Ultra. It says on the cord, USB 3.0, compatible with USB 2.0. It's not powered, and there's no way to power it.
I've had it plugged in to a 2.0 port for roughly 3 months before this issue. I'm a little afraid to plug it into the 3.0 port to see if it is ok there. Should I worry? I'd really like to shoot it..  ~;  ;D

[rodekyll]

The part where the ports choke with the drive attached suggests that it's either a 3.0 drive on a 2.0 port or that it's sucking too much power.  The lack of a power plug on the drive suggests that it's a laptop-type and should have had a 3-ended usb cable included.  One "B" end in each of two SEPARATE usb clusters.  Plugging them into two ports on the same cluster isn't going to distribute the power draw.

A lot of good alternatives to the on-board cluster, to backup strategies, and network security.  Choose the one that makes the most sense to you and drive on!

[Chuck in Indiana]

The part where the ports choke with the drive attached suggests that it's either a 3.0 drive on a 2.0 port or that it's sucking too much power.  The lack of a power plug on the drive suggests that it's a laptop-type and should have had a 3-ended usb cable included.  One "B" end in each of two SEPARATE usb clusters.  Plugging them into two ports on the same cluster isn't going to distribute the power draw.

A lot of good alternatives to the on-board cluster, to backup strategies, and network security.  Choose the one that makes the most sense to you and drive on!

So, you're saying that if I had a powered hub, this drive might work? How about just plugging it into the 3.0 port and sticking my fingers into my ears?  ;D

[rodekyll]

Yes, in a roundabout way I'm saying that.  A powered hub is in the $20 range.

If the drive didn't immediately torch the 2.0 ports, and what was said above about 3.0 ports having better power is true (I had not heard that before), then you probably won't do any more damage to the 3.0 port than you did to the 2.0 stuff.  And if you were paying attention, you remember how to do what the gentleman from India walked you though.  So if the computer disavows the 3.0 port the way it did the other, you can recover from it.  If it destroys the port than you still have the other options.

[canuguzzi]

Is there special software for cloning?  I want to do that for our computers, as backups to the backups.

A lot of drives have cloning software available from their manufacturers. Seagate and Western Digital have cloning software available as a download. It is painless to use, just takes some time depending on the capacity and stored data size on the original drive. You can also get cloning software from a bunch of sources, some free, some not.

The nice thing about a cloned drive is that if the in use drive fails, just swap it out for the cloned drive and fire it up. If you didn't back up the data though, it isn't going to help much though.

You can mirror drives and break the mirror but that is complexity added for most people. The problem with a mirror is that if the machine get infected, the mirror is as well. If you delete some critical file from the primary, it is deleted from the mirror too.

Once you go to a mirror, might as well go all in to Raid 5 or 10 and be done with it. For most people though, using laptops, cloning is a very simple way to have a ready bootable recovery solution that doesn't cost all that much, especially compared to the hassle of trying to recover without one.

[Kentktk]

Windows has a software problem. 

Windows is a software problem

[Chuck in Indiana]

Pay little attention to the reviews from MAC users, they're the same type who can't hold an iPhone properly. Roll Eyes

 ;D