Author Topic: Safe Driving  (Read 10737 times)

Offline blackcat

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Re: Safe Driving
« Reply #30 on: August 05, 2015, 11:36:43 AM »
:1:
Tailgating is endemic in America.

 It all started with those fancy disc brakes. :wink:
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Offline John A

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Re: Safe Driving
« Reply #31 on: August 05, 2015, 12:06:45 PM »
Lannis, you'll notice I didn't say when in the future, that's the key in predicting, not putting a date on your prediction  :laugh:
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Offline Lannis

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Re: Safe Driving
« Reply #32 on: August 05, 2015, 12:10:54 PM »
It all started with those fancy disc brakes. :wink:

That might be true!!

We were playing ball in the driveway one day when a brand new very unusual white car came down the road.   We looked at it but didn't move out of the way because we knew it didn't belong at our house.

But it pulled in, and my Dad was driving it.   He had traded our blue 1959 Renault Dauphine for a brand new 1963 Renault R8!   (A shocking surprise to my Mom, who thought she was managing the money ....  :thewife: ).

The first thing I noticed was a big decal in the back window which read:

"CAUTION - FOUR WHEEL DISK BRAKES"

That was a really good car, as was the R10 that followed it.   But the era of disk brakes had officially arrived in Virginia that day ....

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Offline normzone

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Re: Safe Driving
« Reply #33 on: August 05, 2015, 12:24:25 PM »
Well, this certainly has been an entertaining thread.

I'm all for the one car length for every ten miles per hour guideline, but that was created early in the previous century.

We put enough cars on the road in our major cities that in order to observe that rule we'd all have to leave the house yesterday in order to get to work today.

More money invested in well thought out mass transit and better designed cities would help a lot, but that cow has already left the barn.
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Re: Safe Driving
« Reply #33 on: August 05, 2015, 12:24:25 PM »

Offline Lannis

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Re: Safe Driving
« Reply #34 on: August 05, 2015, 01:07:35 PM »
More money invested in well thought out mass transit and better designed cities would help a lot, but that cow has already left the barn.

That's a fact, but cheap gas and "I have to be FREE and INDEPENDENT of trains and buses" American thinking has killed that.

The north side of Charlotte, NC is a good example.   A MASSIVE amount of development in the last 20 years ... mile after mile of business parks, universities, apartments, subdivisions; and NO way to get around except a car.    No bike paths, no buses, no trains, nothing but completely choked 8 lane roads with no sidewalks even.   

I'm sure that the city planning commission's philosophy is something like "Who's going to walk or bicycle anywhere?   Only bag ladies, homeless bums, and criminals WALK anywhere.   Any decent person drives a car .... "   

And there's lots more places like them .... 

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Offline slowmover

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Re: Safe Driving
« Reply #35 on: August 05, 2015, 01:45:10 PM »
Just heard the brother-ln-law totaled his Kawasaki Voyager this morning. Don't have all the facts yet but it has to do with a car backing out of a driveway. His wife and him are ok but banged up.I don't want to pre-judge but he always had a lot of distractions going on while riding as the bike had 6 speakers, Ipod ,gps screens , cigarette lighter and who knows what else.They never wore helmets or any safety vests and both of them would smoke while riding.We always disagreed on how much concentration was needed on the road.He didn't want anything to" harsh his mellow" whatever that means.I'm just sayin'.

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Re: Safe Driving
« Reply #36 on: August 05, 2015, 02:12:44 PM »
The solution to make that road safer is to rework it so that there are lots of sweeping curves, a few 180s and 1 or 2  260s. No shoulder so that the speeders just drift off to some unseen place. After the culling, a perfect road to ride.

Offline v7john

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Re: Safe Driving
« Reply #37 on: August 05, 2015, 05:02:03 PM »
If a long sharp spike was installed on the steering wheel I bet there would be a rapid decline in these incidents.......
There would certainly be fewer repeat offenders!
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Offline tris

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Re: Safe Driving
« Reply #38 on: August 07, 2015, 07:06:24 AM »
That might be true!!

We were playing ball in the driveway one day when a brand new very unusual white car came down the road.   We looked at it but didn't move out of the way because we knew it didn't belong at our house.

But it pulled in, and my Dad was driving it.   He had traded our blue 1959 Renault Dauphine for a brand new 1963 Renault R8!   (A shocking surprise to my Mom, who thought she was managing the money ....  :thewife: ).

The first thing I noticed was a big decal in the back window which read:

"CAUTION - FOUR WHEEL DISK BRAKES"

That was a really good car, as was the R10 that followed it.   But the era of disk brakes had officially arrived in Virginia that day ....

Lannis

The myth goes that MANY years ago Austin Rover sold all the tooling and manufacturing rights for the Austin Montego to an Indian company

At that time, all the cars on the road in India were revamped Morris Oxfords the Hindustan Ambassador

Instant accident peak as the Montego had disc brakes and the many Oxfords drum brakes
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Offline toaster404

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Re: Safe Driving
« Reply #39 on: August 07, 2015, 08:59:28 AM »
So many factors that vary so much from place to place.  I still can't understand why all the distracting entertainment and support features came into autos prior to the self-driving that would support them!!

As to motorcycle awareness, I can speak to that.  Here a few miles from the "Dragon" and in a motorcycling destination the locals are much much more aware of motorcycles than elsewhere in the area.  This becomes very clear from driving out from our house, even simply into Knoxville.  Back in Blount & Monroe County and people actually see bikes.  The few incidents I've had with one exception involved visitors. 

Certainly, driving skill is not high.  We don't teach driving, and people are resistant.  My ex, for example, took 20 years to get her to understand that riding the brakes into a turn was why she was insecure in turns.  Once she started driving a heavier high-performance car that scared her driving wrong (BMW 540i) she finally learned simple cornering (throttle up through turn, pick apex, eyes on the exit) and really improved. 

I'm in favor of graduated licenses, reckless driving (including tailgating) enforcement, etc., but it's not going to happen.  Figure I need to stay sharp and defensive. 

And people think they are good drivers.  My OL rests her left arm on the window ledge, has odd and ineffective grip on the wheel, irregular and unthinking throttle and brake response, doesn't link up input to response in her mind, etc.  Doesn't notice the vehicle jerks around, ignores her multi-apex cornering etc.  Fails to notice the difference from driver to driver (notes my dad's distractibility from age, but doesn't notice how smooth, controlled and careful he is).  Studiously ignores hints and suggestions about car driving.  But rides a bike very nicely - doesn't link up car to bike technique!  Thinking of sending her to a racing school so she can develop some seat-of-the-pants feel.  Most folks don't believe that a car driver can tell when one tire is a few pounds low, or that cars are always drifting a bit, or that learning is a lifetime thing.

Imagine if we actually trained people to drive, enforced reasonable laws etc.!  I feel just barely competent to handle all the input and the complexity of our road system in the US, and I am actually trained and experienced.  No idea why there aren't many more wrecks.

Sorry for rambling, I am not awake and I do mull over safe driving.  I think the most amazing demonstration of safe driving was my grandfather testing an MG Magnette he had gone through for my mother to use.  I was probably 15 (so this would be in the late 1960s).  I think this was the Mark IV with the upgraded suspension.  He got it ticking over nicely, and we took it out.  He proceeded to systematically test the transmission up and down (glass smooth, he was), and then the grip.  Got out to adjust tire pressure.  Then we did a ride on country roads that involved full throttle, full braking, throttle steering, speeds into the 80s on long straights, and so on.  Punctuated by stops to adjust things.  An amazing demonstration of how a vehicle could be run safely within its limits and the sight line limits, but at the edges of its performance.  Never saw him do anything but carefully picking his way through the world after that, except for his tendency to use throttle to corner well, rather than braking first.  Smoothest driver I've seen, with all kinds of techniques to suggest to others to back off, and a sixth sense about who would do stupid.  Now if folks would learn that kind of control and understanding, learn to get the whole 360 in mind all the time, pay attention, and get their emotions out of their driving, we might be able to have a lot more fun!!!!! [He started on bikes in the 20s - built racing cars - rebuilt high-performance aircraft - I miss him]

Sorry for the ramble.  Time to get to work.

Offline charlie b

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Re: Safe Driving
« Reply #40 on: August 07, 2015, 05:39:04 PM »
Right now you still have such a huge mix of skills it is amazing. 

My mother learned to drive a Model A in the 30's.  She still practices a lot of what she learned then.  Like parking.  You just pull up until the bumper taps the person in front of you.  Simple.  She just can not comprehend why that is not acceptable these days.  She still has a hard time using mirrors (her dad's Model A did not have one).

My dad loved fast cars.  He learned, sometimes the hard way, about how to drive and then passed it on to us when he taught us to drive.  I think that's the big blank spot in drivers.  Training.  The do not get it in the schools, public or private.  They do not get it from their parents.  They just kind of get in and go, maybe knowing what the traffic rules/laws are.  Most of those are now in their 40's and 50's and they still do not know how to drive.  And guess who is teaching the next generation.

I'd love to see a REAL drivers test (and training schools), but, we'll never get them.  They are actually getting worse rather than better.
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Re: Safe Driving
« Reply #41 on: August 07, 2015, 05:59:14 PM »
Growing up on a farm helped me to learn driving and clutch skills over a longer period of time starting with tractors & a go-cart, then a PU in a pasture, then dirt roads. I was allowed to take the PU out in a dirt field and learn about loss and regaining of traction. Was able to do similar with a car on a snow covered parking lot. Kind of like spin training in an airplane, if you can practice under controlled conditions than you are better prepared if ever happens on the road. I don't think most get those kind of opportunities anymore.
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Offline BRIO

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Re: Safe Driving
« Reply #42 on: August 07, 2015, 07:16:45 PM »
I've driven in most European countries and the Middle East. Nowhere else have I encountered less disciplined, educated and intelligent drivers than here in the U.S. Culturally, Americans don't take driving seriously. I'm talking about four wheelers btw.

Offline Thunderbutt

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Re: Safe Driving
« Reply #43 on: August 07, 2015, 07:27:12 PM »
Charlie B- there was just a big ta do last week here in the Tampa Bay News about the increasing numbers of people unable to pass the written drivers exam.  Seems only one third of the people who take the exam can actually pass so now they are considering re-writing the exam to make it "easier to comprehend the questions".  Now how much easier can they make it? Already if you don't read, write or understand English they allow someone to interpret the questions for you.  And I am sure since the examiner is not standing there the interpreter isn't helping with the answers.  More dumbing down of our country.
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Offline travelingbyguzzi

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Re: Safe Driving
« Reply #44 on: August 09, 2015, 02:03:45 AM »
Just spent the last weekend in England. I will go on record as saying that the English are better drivers than Americans as a whole. A large part of that is civility, but also skill was superior. Buses everywhere. Traffic moved thru London and Birmingham quite well.
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Offline Zoom Zoom

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Re: Safe Driving
« Reply #45 on: August 09, 2015, 05:08:10 AM »
Maybe the education system needs to go back to the kind of driver education training I had where part of the classroom time was watching real life films of paramedics peeling screaming people out of mangled hunks of steel and glass. It's been over 40 years since I sat in that class and I still remember those films. I did have an impact on how I drive/ride.  :copcar:

I remember those as well. One in particular, Signal 30, was filmed on Route 30 here in Ohio. Going to school in Ashland, (very near Rt.30), emphasized that movie a lot. I do wonder sometimes if todays driver education is as comprehensive as it was all those years ago. Whether the standards have been lowered, varying quality of the private education, etc. Shoot, students don't even have to parallel park any more. Here, they move into a five cone setup and move 1/2 car width around the fifth cone, then back into the other four, then do it to the other side of the fifth cone. There have always been driving distractions, but there are certainly more than ever before.

Oh well............

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Offline maquette

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Re: Safe Driving
« Reply #46 on: August 09, 2015, 07:22:22 AM »
Three crashes this morning on a road near here.   As usual, people are saying "It's a dangerous road, something ought to be done!"

Lannis,

This post without identifying the road in question is almost useless.  :evil:  :>)

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Offline sib

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Re: Safe Driving
« Reply #47 on: August 09, 2015, 07:39:25 AM »
Just spent the last weekend in England. I will go on record as saying that the English are better drivers than Americans as a whole. A large part of that is civility, but also skill was superior. Buses everywhere. Traffic moved thru London and Birmingham quite well.
Another factor is that, unlike in the US, driving drunk will get you in really big trouble in the UK.

And not just the UK.  When I visited a friend in Japan, after dinner he insisted that his non-drinking wife drive me back to my hotel.  He explained that if he were to be cited for driving with even a little alcohol in his system, he would not only lose his right to drive, he would also probably lose his job, which was as a tenured professor.  Here, it's nearly impossible for a tenured professor to lose his/her job for any reason short of raping the dean (and even then,...).
« Last Edit: August 09, 2015, 07:46:06 AM by sib »
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Offline sib

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Re: Safe Driving
« Reply #48 on: August 09, 2015, 07:40:37 AM »
If a long sharp spike was installed on the steering wheel I bet there would be a rapid decline in these incidents.......
Another incentive would be to eliminate front bumpers.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2015, 07:41:06 AM by sib »
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Offline Triple Jim

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Re: Safe Driving
« Reply #49 on: August 09, 2015, 08:36:47 AM »
I remember those as well. One in particular, Signal 30, was filmed on Route 30 here in Ohio.

In the Montgomery County, MD public school system in the mid '70s, they showed us Signal 30 and Mechanized Death.  That second one was was pretty creepy to a high school student from its name alone.  They had enough of an impact on me that I can still remember some of the scenes.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2015, 08:37:31 AM by Triple Jim »
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Offline toaster404

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Re: Safe Driving
« Reply #50 on: August 09, 2015, 09:30:15 AM »
One would think dead people would make a difference, but I've seen volunteer firefighters become jerk drivers even though they work wrecks.  Seems some dissonance there.  Doesn't make sense.

My grandfather and grandmother on my mom's side were the last survivors of their motorcycle club by the time WWII rolled around.  My mom saw death close up, although from bombing.  My dad is smart (very very smart - worked on minor things like developing the Internet, satellite spying etc.) and has always been very very cautious.  So I grew up with save driving.  And was still a relatively unskilled, overconfident jerk until I a) got trained by a rally driver and a race driver while working on their cars, b) got into outdoor skill sports where the unskilled went splat, and c) drove a wrecker.  And I'm reasonably smart, at least smart enough to enjoy learning and improving things.

I have to say that I am the safest driver I've ever been at 61, that I have the most knowledge of driving I've ever had, and that I was very safe by the time I was 25.  But most people I watch seem to get sloppy as the years go by.  They simply don't work at it.  On the other hand, most people don't track tire pressure, maintain their machines, understand what they're doing or how things work. 

US won't go where it needs to.  Loss of license for 6 months for first DUI, loss of car and license gone for 5 years next DUI, permanent loss of license and 20,000 fine third DUI.  Texting while driving 1000 fine, then 5000 fine and 1 month license loss.  Things like that.

Has to be countered with education.  I like tagging beginners with an "L" or something like that.  Maybe license plates should reflect the class of driver.  Should go for cars, too.  I have driven cars I would never put a teenager in.  Education needs to cover perception, tiredness, how a car actually drives, and so on.

Also need periodic testing.  My former MILaw (she's dead and the ex-wife departed) apparently started fading much before anyone knew.  Her DL expired in 1993!!!  Her driving tipped us off to something wrong about 2005.  Turned out she could get the places she knew even with severe deficits in functioning.  Turn her off the familiar path and she would be lost.  Nobody would ride with her, so her unusual driving habits weren't noticed, and she never got caught.

Lack of respect for law / rules also figures in.  I have had conversations with a number of folks who indicated they would have stopped at the stop sign if they'd seen me.  Every time the culprit looks shocked when I explain that one is required to stop first, then look, then go.  It's really insane. 

Sixth sense, 360 tracking, look like a cop, day-glo vest mostly, bike control.

I think I will send my OL through a driving course.  She's OK, but is clearly shocked at the ground-covering capabilities of someone trained in a hurry.  No way she has the chops to really drive.  And she needs to develop quiet pride in her ability, something that marks a really good worker in anything.


Offline Lannis

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Re: Safe Driving
« Reply #51 on: August 10, 2015, 06:34:11 PM »
Three crashes this morning on a road near here.   As usual, people are saying "It's a dangerous road, something ought to be done!"

Lannis,

This post without identifying the road in question is almost useless.  :evil:  :>)

Tom
Oriental, NC

Well, quite.   

It's the stretch of US 460 east of Lynchburg, VA, between the eastern US 29 interchange and the US 501 interchange .....

Lannis
« Last Edit: August 10, 2015, 06:35:30 PM by Lannis »
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Offline Lannis

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Re: Safe Driving
« Reply #52 on: August 10, 2015, 06:37:25 PM »


US won't go where it needs to.  Loss of license for 6 months for first DUI, loss of car and license gone for 5 years next DUI, permanent loss of license and 20,000 fine third DUI.  Texting while driving 1000 fine, then 5000 fine and 1 month license loss.  Things like that.



Good idea, already implemented in many states, but doesn't help.

"Loss of license" and fines doesn't keep people out of cars, and doesn't keep them from driving.    And if you put them in jail so they CAN'T drive, the world press media is appalled that so many in the USA are in prison .....

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Offline charlie b

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Re: Safe Driving
« Reply #53 on: August 10, 2015, 07:27:06 PM »
Charlie B- there was just a big ta do last week here in the Tampa Bay News about the increasing numbers of people unable to pass the written drivers exam.  Seems only one third of the people who take the exam can actually pass so now they are considering re-writing the exam to make it "easier to comprehend the questions".  Now how much easier can they make it? Already if you don't read, write or understand English they allow someone to interpret the questions for you.  And I am sure since the examiner is not standing there the interpreter isn't helping with the answers.  More dumbing down of our country.

Well, it doesn't even stop there.  When getting my MC license here in NM I watched a lady take the Commercial exam to be a school bus driver.  She could not read english so she had someone else there with her to 'interpret'.  The other person said nothing, just pointed out which answers to mark.

Penalties?  DUI??  Not here in NM.  When a drunk kills someone there are usually 5 to 10 DUI CONVICTIONS on their record.  Some are driving without a license and in someone elses car (cause theirs were both impounded).  They routinely get 5 convictions before a license is pulled.  Combine that with the state giving a DL to any illegal that wants one and you have a free for all.  It is kinda surprising more people aren't killed over here.
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Offline toaster404

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Re: Safe Driving
« Reply #54 on: August 10, 2015, 08:08:50 PM »
I suspect we need to change our cultural view of driving.  I consider piloting a vehicle to have equal responsibility to handling a gun.  Most appear not to.  Reinforcing that it's a privilege, not a right, and bring responsibilities would be useful.

Not going to hold my breath.  Right about up to carrying again, although I hate doing so.  No interest in hurting anyone, but sometimes a bit of noise helps one disengage.  I simply can't count on my physical training and skills as much as I could decades ago.

Roaming reckless driving officers and roaming paramedics on bikes would be good additions to the mix.

Offline johnr

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Re: Safe Driving
« Reply #55 on: August 10, 2015, 10:28:54 PM »
Lannis, I'm going to reprint your original post on my facebook page!

Maybe the education system needs to go back to the kind of driver education training I had where part of the classroom time was watching real life films of paramedics peeling screaming people out of mangled hunks of steel and glass. It's been over 40 years since I sat in that class and I still remember those films. I did have an impact on how I drive/ride.  :copcar:

I remember those films being shown to us at an assembly in high school. We saw four of them. "Mechanised Death" and "Signal 30" were two of them. I don't recall the names of the other two. While probably very dated now they were truly gory unlike what usually comes with the 'disturbing images' warning. 

In fact four of them was one too many. By then the shock was wearing off. We had all seen what was inside a human body plenty of times by then and I found it was only the seriously injured but alive and conscious that still disturbed me. (We have the Ohio State Police to thank for  them)

None the less, I heard teenage boys leaving the hall swearing that they were Never going to get a licence.

It comes down to I believe compulsory skills based driver training on which your licence depends. 

One problem with that is that such programs are more often than not run by or orchestrated by the police. Police as a general rule (I'm sure there are plenty of exceptions) tend to be 'Rule based' in their approach to road safety. That is to say, they equate safety with obedience to regulations and tend to consider that to be the skill.

On a motorcycle we may or may not take much notice of the speed limit for example but we sure as hell learn to notice, and act on, potential hazards.

I believe that riding a motorcycle is perhaps the best defensive driving course there is.  In fact, back in the day when we had a separate traffic police, those guys were required to spend two years on a motorcycle before they were allowed in a car. Some that I have met then refused to give up the bike.

Some time back there was talk of raising the age at which one could get a licence in this country. One idea I heard mooted was to raise the age to 18 for a car but let it remain at 15 for a motorcycle. I think that idea has merit.

PS
Out of curiosity I dialed up 'Signal 30' on utube. What I watched is not what I remember. I suspect it has been much sanitised and shortened. Very grainy too.

« Last Edit: August 10, 2015, 11:50:39 PM by johnr »
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Re: Safe Driving
« Reply #56 on: August 10, 2015, 11:06:43 PM »
You don't want to characterize people TOO quickly!  We have Octogenarians on this list that can probably outride and outdrive both of us ... !
Lannis

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Offline slowmover

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Re: Safe Driving
« Reply #57 on: August 11, 2015, 07:54:12 AM »
Five Principles of Safe Driving-Smith driving system

Make the roads a safe place by employing the same methods we use with our drivers. The Smith System states that following these five rules can dramatically reduce the risk of major accidents on highways and roads.
1.   Aim High
The first rule for this method is Aim high in steering. Staying alert of the dangers and traffic ahead not only avoids rear-end collisions, but it also alerts other drivers behind your vehicle to slow down. The driver should steer and focus their attention high, so as to view the road as whole and not just a few feet ahead.
2.   The Big Picture
Be aware of your surroundings at all times may seem obvious to say, but distracted drivers are just as dangerous as intoxicated ones. Erratic and angry drivers take up a large portion of the traffic we see daily, so avoid major accidents by noticing how other drivers behave on the road. Having the whole picture means that you are doing your part to keep your vehicle as safe as possible while moving 1000ft a second. There are a variety of hazards between your own vehicle and other drivers, and a keen awareness of these dangers will reduce these risks.
3.   Keep Your Eyes Moving
The third standard of the Smith System asks drivers to remain alert. Energy drinks can only do so much before they cause the body to crash, and any repetitive motion sends us into a trance. Consistent eye movement prevents your body from entering the trance state, keeping you alert to every driving condition ahead of you.

4.   Leave Yourself an Out
The fourth principle of the Smith System states to leave yourself a way out. This means ensure that other drivers do not box you in while selecting their lanes. Do not follow other vehicles too closely, and always anticipate what choices other drivers make.
5.   Make Sure They See You
The worst thing a driver can do is assume. Assume other drivers can see them, assume other drivers are not dangerous, or even assume that they will just get to their destination safely. The final rule for the Smith System is Make Sure You Are Seen.This rule prevents accidents by removing assumptions made behind the wheel. As a driver, make sure that other drivers can see you and anticipate your move. If you feel you are coming into another drivers blind spot, use the horn to get their attention
« Last Edit: August 11, 2015, 07:58:43 AM by slowmover »

Offline not-fishing

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Re: Safe Driving
« Reply #58 on: August 11, 2015, 10:06:07 AM »
The decline I've seen in US drivers over the last 10 years  has made me give up riding, plus the Convert needed repairs that I wasn't interested in doing. And I'm sure it will get worse as we load up the new cars with even more distracting electronics. If I become unable to drive a car in 15 years I don't think I'll be too disappointed.

40%+ of the accidents in Los Angeles are Hit n Runs.

This removes the Darwin element of driving in LA.
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Offline Triple Jim

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Re: Safe Driving
« Reply #59 on: August 11, 2015, 10:30:51 AM »
Having the whole picture means that you are doing your part to keep your vehicle as safe as possible while moving 1000ft a second.

Good post with great principles of safe driving.  (but Mach .9?   :laugh:)
When the Brussels sprout fails to venture from its lair, it is time to roll a beaver up a grassy slope.

 

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