Why deep discounts on the Norge?

[Cool Runnings]

They must be extremely poor sellers.

Is it because they can't compete with the rice and sausage burners?

[swmckinley54]

I don't think it's just a Guzzi thing. Dealers need to get rid of last years model and the factory rebates them to help them out. I just replaced my '12 Stelvio with a KTM 1290 Super Adventure. List price was $20,500.00, after factory rebate to the dealer I paid $16,500.00.

[BRIO]

It's the most outdated model in the range of a brand that doesn't sell particularly well. It still has that early 00's look while other brands have moved on to a different design language. Have you seen the plastic ST monstrosities the krauts are putting out now? No thanks.

[rocker59]

Define:  "compete"


It's simply supply and demand, really.

Guzzi produced more Norges than there were buyers for Norges.

The price has been reduced to attract additional buyers and clear the inventory.

"Why?", you ask, is there not more demand for Norges?  The list is long, and we've discussed all the reasons in previous threads:

Here are some things that I think are big contributors:

-> the traditional sport-touring market-share-percent of the total motorcycle market is shrinking.

-> traditional sport-touring motorcycles are being replaced with "Adventure Sport Touring" machines.  ADVbikes with more road-going equipments

-> Guzzi continues to offer a sparse dealer network, and many who ride Sport-Touring machines cross country prefer Hondas, Yamahas, Kawasakis, and BMWs for their dealer networks.

-> Guzzi continues to be a phantom company.  Especially in the USA.  Most non-motorcyclists, and many current-motorcyclists simply don't know Moto Guzzi exists, and those who do just don't know anything about them.  They're considered Italian exotics, and just like Ferrari, Maserati, and Alfa Romeo, most people would just rather have a Lexus, Infinity, or Mercedes.

[twhitaker]

Most non-motorcyclists, and many current-motorcyclists simply don't know Moto Guzzi exists, and those who do just don't know anything about them.

And those that do know usually ask the question, "Where do you get it worked on?"

[kingoffleece]

Not to mention that 3/4's of the motorcycling world seem to think they need 6 levels of traction control, 12 riding modes, full-on NASA communication technology, and so on.

The NORGE is a motorcycle, plain and simple.  Now, that said, people want what they want, and that's fine.  Between the magazines and other riders showing off all the latest simple machines tend to get left behind.

When I used to sell Triumph I kid you not the VERY first thing people asked about the R3T was does it have a factory sound system followed by does it have cruise.  That's it.  If not, they kept moving over to the Victory side and asked the exact same questions.

More and more riders want a minivan on 2 wheels.  That's not the typical Guzzi owner I know but it's what I see and hear as I go all over with my M/C accessory product.

Not a rant, simply an observation.  To the point, I got my Norge because it was not all the things the BMW RT is.  It's just a motorcycle for the most part.  The great deal because nobody wants them made it even better!

[JeffOlson]

I don't think they can't compete. In fact, I think they compete very well. I have bought two of them!

[rocker59]

And those that do know usually ask the question, "Where do you get it worked on?"

Yes.  "what year is that?", then "where do you have it serviced?".

They lose interest pretty quickly when I say that I do most of my own service, and the nearest dealer is in Tulsa.

[Vagrant]

in the spring of 2013 the Tucson Honda dealer had a 2010 ST1300 left over for if I remember right $10,000 and it still sat.
I think Guzzi would be better off if they split the difference between their normal retail and the lets dump it because it isn't selling price. example V7 Stones. $8500 then and $6000 now.

[George_S]

I wholeheartedly agree and that's the big reason I left BMW. I want to ride a motorcycle, not feel like I'm operating another computer in my life.

Not to mention that 3/4's of the motorcycling world seem to think they need 6 levels of traction control, 12 riding modes, full-on NASA communication technology, and so on.

The NORGE is a motorcycle, plain and simple.  Now, that said, people want what they want, and that's fine.  Between the magazines and other riders showing off all the latest simple machines tend to get left behind.

When I used to sell Triumph I kid you not the VERY first thing people asked about the R3T was does it have a factory sound system followed by does it have cruise.  That's it.  If not, they kept moving over to the Victory side and asked the exact same questions.

More and more riders want a minivan on 2 wheels.  That's not the typical Guzzi owner I know but it's what I see and hear as I go all over with my M/C accessory product.

Not a rant, simply an observation.  To the point, I got my Norge because it was not all the things the BMW RT is.  It's just a motorcycle for the most part.  The great deal because nobody wants them made it even better!

[Dilliw]

Just using Cycletrader stats as a guide...

There are 25 new Norges for sale nationwide.  Of the 25, 17 of them are 2014 models or earlier.  There are still 2 2012 models listed for sale as new.

Contrast with the Trophy.  There are 157 new for sale nationwide.  Of the 157, 25 of them are 2014 or earlier with only 2 2013's left in inventory. 

Obviously it's much harder to buy a Norge because there are so few of them and you have to be near one of the ever decreasing Guzzi dealers nationwide.  The other thing I see, however, is that even the non-current Triumph models do not show with discounted prices.  Instead you see that Triumph offers 60 month, 0% financing on their non-current models.  They are better able to move non-current inventory and at higher prices for their dealers by subsidizing the financing.  It's a model the car companies went to as well.

The alternative to financing is to offer bikes at a price point where they can attract a cash sale.  For me that's around $10k before my justification to the CFO as to why I'm dropping a chunk of savings on a luxury item loses traction.  I know a lot of folks here have stated that they wouldn't finance a bike period, and that's why we have the reputation (from the other thread) of not buying new bikes.  I would say it's the cash sales plus the knowledge that most Guzzi owners have about the availability of super deals if you buy the non-current bike. 

[canuguzzi]

Guess what? The other brands are making what most people want to buy.

This whole "needs" thing is rediculous. We are hardly in a position to say who needs what. Motorcycling is about wants not needs. You don't need a motorcycle, you want one. People don't need traction control, they want it. They want active suspension, they want active ECU maps.

If they put that stuff on a Norge, we'd want it too.

If Moto Guzzi put active suspension on the Norge, you'd complain? Same thing for selectable ecu maps, traction control, more adjustment on the windscreen, an adjustable seat, liquid cooling to take the bike forward instead of an uncertain future after this year?

[AH Fan]

Not to mention that 3/4's of the motorcycling world seem to think they need 6 levels of traction control, 12 riding modes, full-on NASA communication technology, and so on.

The NORGE is a motorcycle, plain and simple.  Now, that said, people want what they want, and that's fine.  Between the magazines and other riders showing off all the latest simple machines tend to get left behind.

When I used to sell Triumph I kid you not the VERY first thing people asked about the R3T was does it have a factory sound system followed by does it have cruise.  That's it.  If not, they kept moving over to the Victory side and asked the exact same questions.

More and more riders want a minivan on 2 wheels.  That's not the typical Guzzi owner I know but it's what I see and hear as I go all over with my M/C accessory product.

Not a rant, simply an observation.  To the point, I got my Norge because it was not all the things the BMW RT is.  It's just a motorcycle for the most part.  The great deal because nobody wants them made it even better!

There ya go folks ................ could not have said it any better than that.   

[jas67]

in the spring of 2013 the Tucson Honda dealer had a 2010 ST1300 left over for if I remember right $10,000 and it still sat.

There is a dealer in Colorado with two 2014 Honda CTX1300N's with a BIN price of $7,999.  These are bikes with an MSRP of $15,999 (yes, DOUBLE).

2014 Honda Interceptors  (aka VFR800) are marked down to $7,999 for the standard, and $8,999 for the deluxe.    The Colorado has a standard listed on ebay with a BIN of $7,499.    MSPR is $12,499 and $13,499 for the standard and deluxe respectively.

In October, I saw 2015 FJ-09's marked down $2k, and that is a brand new model that just came out this past year.

The US motorcycle market is really slow, and it isn't just because it is winter, it was slow before winter.   Several dealers in the area have told me that this is the worst they seen in many years.

[canuguzzi]

The US motorcycle market is really slow, and it isn't just because it is winter, it was slow before winter.   Several dealers in the area have told me that this is the worst they seen in many years.

This is also true ^^^^

Regarding the Norge being a motorcycle, so is the St1300, the FJR, the Trophy and the RT and just because someone doesn't want what they offer doesn't mean, as the implied comment tried to say, that they are something else.

[Cool Runnings]

Just using Cycletrader stats as a guide...

There are 25 new Norges for sale nationwide.  Of the 25, 17 of them are 2014 models or earlier.  There are still 2 2012 models listed for sale as new.

Contrast with the Trophy.  There are 157 new for sale nationwide.  Of the 157, 25 of them are 2014 or earlier with only 2 2013's left in inventory. 

Obviously it's much harder to buy a Norge because there are so few of them and you have to be near one of the ever decreasing Guzzi dealers nationwide.  The other thing I see, however, is that even the non-current Triumph models do not show with discounted prices.  Instead you see that Triumph offers 60 month, 0% financing on their non-current models.  They are better able to move non-current inventory and at higher prices for their dealers by subsidizing the financing.  It's a model the car companies went to as well.

The alternative to financing is to offer bikes at a price point where they can attract a cash sale.  For me that's around $10k before my justification to the CFO as to why I'm dropping a chunk of savings on a luxury item loses traction.  I know a lot of folks here have stated that they wouldn't finance a bike period, and that's why we have the reputation (from the other thread) of not buying new bikes.  I would say it's the cash sales plus the knowledge that most Guzzi owners have about the availability of super deals if you buy the non-current bike.

I went with 2.99% for 6 years, will pay it off early... (2014 @ $9,000) with trade in.

[JeffOlson]

^ Not bad!

[Dean Rose]

Guess what? The other brands are making what most people want to buy.

This whole "needs" thing is rediculous. We are hardly in a position to say who needs what. Motorcycling is about wants not needs. You don't need a motorcycle, you want one. People don't need traction control, they want it. They want active suspension, they want active ECU maps.

If they put that stuff on a Norge, we'd want it too.

If Moto Guzzi put active suspension on the Norge, you'd complain? Same thing for selectable ecu maps, traction control, more adjustment on the windscreen, an adjustable seat, liquid cooling to take the bike forward instead of an uncertain future after this year?

That's what Piaggio has Aprilia for.


Dean

[frans belgium]

Guess what? The other brands are making what most people want to buy.

This whole "needs" thing is rediculous. We are hardly in a position to say who needs what. Motorcycling is about wants not needs. You don't need a motorcycle, you want one. People don't need traction control, they want it. They want active suspension, they want active ECU maps.

If they put that stuff on a Norge, we'd want it too.

If Moto Guzzi put active suspension on the Norge, you'd complain? Same thing for selectable ecu maps, traction control, more adjustment on the windscreen, an adjustable seat, liquid cooling to take the bike forward instead of an uncertain future after this year?

 :1:

[blackcat]

If Moto Guzzi put active suspension on the Norge, you'd complain? Same thing for selectable ecu maps, traction control, more adjustment on the windscreen, an adjustable seat, liquid cooling to take the bike forward instead of an uncertain future after this year?

At what cost? $3K,$4K,$5K more than the current price?

[kingoffleece]

Jeff Olson, that's my point!  That's why WE bought them.  I get it.

Norge Pilot, well , maybe not.  If all that stuff was on the bike it's be priced much higher and I most likely would not have purchased.  I like my Guzzi bikes and lusted after a V7 and bought it.  I got the Norge as the deal was too good to pass up.  No sale to me a list price and certainly no sale at Trophy or RT price.  Didn't need/want it that bad.  maybe I was not as clear as I thought I was.  I like the "lower" tech approach of the Norge and that was key-but the bargain price was as least as much of a factor.

Anyway, not to split hairs.  I give.  Yes, they are ALL motorcycles.  I should have much more precise.  Won't happen again.

[canuguzzi]

No worries, I do get it, after all I have one and like it very much.

I do say though, if the Norge had those things, they might not have to discount them so heavily. The MSRP is over $16K, discounted to $9999. Average sale price is probably around $12K plus fees. Still leaves quite a bit over 4 grand in the table.

The Norge doesn't have to sell for a higher price than MSRP, just closer to it but even those of us who buy the Norge aren't willing to shell out $16k + for them.

Just the way it sits, if the Norge had the goods, it wouldn't be the step child of reviews or consideration for buyers, it would be at the top of the heap. There is no real wanting in the engine or the styling.

Here is what I see though, without higher sales, unless MG already has something units sleeve in the engine design department to meet future emissions regs, the Norge and Stelvio too are toast, the engine won't pass them.

Then see what happens to prices. The 8V bikes don't have the long term following, they don't elicit the desire of the LeMans or SPs.

Here is the other thing. Is there any doubt that BMW will stop making the RT or a replacement? The FJR? The ST? None.

Now who among us can comfortably say that this isn't the last year of the Norge?

[PJPR01]

There is some truth to this...probably depends where people are on the buying curve...but notice that Ducati just announced excellent YoY sales in NA...haven't digested the details just yet to see which models or features are driving the sales.

Last year while out in Palo Alto for work, I rented a BMW K1600GTL for the day, fun ride up to Alice's, down to Half Moon Bay and Santa Cruz along Hwy 1. It has more bells and whistles than I had even known existed, with a relatively simple ease of use.  Got the hang of them after a bit of fiddling and played around with it on the day rental.  But interestingly enough, I think the one feature that makes the most sense was the Sport, Rain or Touring ride setting...and it does work well...but honestly, it doesn't have to be there if you are a good rider.  It made me think that there is a lot of stuff and features added to attract buyers, which does sell bikes, but which ultimately may not even be used on a regular basis...but it sounds good and is a feature that may hook a buyer.  The motor itself is incredibly smooth, powerful and yet at the same time, sterile in nature...but the bike was fun to ride...for the day.  Maybe an excellent bike for Iron Butt training!

On the other hand, I specifically like the fact that the Norge does NOT have those features and is more mechanical in nature and features, easily mounted after market GPS, adding music thru Bluetooth amply satisfy those needs.   Is the business cycle for motorcycles worse now than it was in late 2009 when they were discounting Norge's basically to invoice as well?

To me...Engine, Suspension and Style trump gadgets every day of the week...

[rocker59]

There is some truth to this...probably depends where people are on the buying curve...but notice that Ducati just announced excellent YoY sales in NA...haven't digested the details just yet to see which models or features are driving the sales.
 

Scrambler.

[PJPR01]

Ducati Scrambler is more or less the equivalent of our V7 or V9? 

[George_S]

Scrambler.

Yes. The Ducati scrambler got HUGE press everywhere- print and 'net which had the M/C public salivating before it went on sale. Plus Ducati had a nice stage display at the motorcycle shows. Where was MG? Not even at the shows I saw.

[rocker59]

Ducati Scrambler is more or less the equivalent of our V7 or V9?

Yes.  It's funny.  Ducati has some real badass high-tech machinery, but they introduce an elemental scrambler, and it takes off like crazy.

Not unlike the Guzzi V7 line beginning in 2009, or Triumph's Bonneville of 2001.

[blackcat]

To me...Engine, Suspension and Style trump gadgets every day of the week...

I agree.

[rocker59]

Yes. The Ducati scrambler got HUGE press everywhere- print and 'net which had the M/C public salivating before it went on sale. Plus Ducati had a nice stage display at the motorcycle shows. Where was MG? Not even at the shows I saw.

Ducati gets huge press on every bike.  Yet, this low tech throwback comes in and knocks a big dent in the pie chart.

[George_S]

This is also true ^^^^

Regarding the Norge being a motorcycle, so is the St1300, the FJR, the Trophy and the RT and just because someone doesn't want what they offer doesn't mean, as the implied comment tried to say, that they are something else.

Um, it kinda does mean that.