Author Topic: Do Blade fuses just get "old"?  (Read 10389 times)

Offline ITSec

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Re: Do Blade fuses just get "old"?
« Reply #30 on: May 24, 2016, 10:28:07 PM »
You seem to be fairly knowledgeable, what does the black dove have to do with this?

Nothing to do with the aging - only relates to the effective replacement!
ITSecurity
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Offline Muzz

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Re: Do Blade fuses just get "old"?
« Reply #31 on: May 24, 2016, 11:25:36 PM »
Like the spare beemer clutch cable I carried around for years , never a problem until of course leaving it at home . Broke the cable on the bike 1,000 miles from home , and 500 miles from any dealer . Bodged a solution involving a small U clamp , but still ...

 Dusty

Thread drift. On my old Matchy I broke the throttle cable in a similar position. Tied a loop in the end and put my forearm through it.. Straighten arm = go, bend arm = stop. Not vey controllable but it worked. :cheesy:

Back to thread. The Matchy never had fuses. Just replace the Lucas Smoke every now and then. :rolleyes:
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Re: Do Blade fuses just get "old"?
« Reply #32 on: May 24, 2016, 11:30:33 PM »
 Muzz , riders of old English iron needed a spare gallon of Lucas Smoke (TM) in stock all the time  :laugh:

 Dusty

Offline Muzz

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Re: Do Blade fuses just get "old"?
« Reply #33 on: May 25, 2016, 12:31:23 AM »
Hope johnr isn't reading this; he used to work for Lucas in their motorcycle division. He is a bit sensitive about The Prince of Darkness. :wink:
Muzz. Cristchurch, New Zealand
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Re: Do Blade fuses just get "old"?
« Reply #33 on: May 25, 2016, 12:31:23 AM »

Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: Do Blade fuses just get "old"?
« Reply #34 on: May 25, 2016, 12:41:20 AM »
Ssshhh, my Lario has Lucas electrics
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Half a V9 Roamer

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oldbike54

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Re: Do Blade fuses just get "old"?
« Reply #35 on: May 25, 2016, 08:58:37 AM »
Hope johnr isn't reading this; he used to work for Lucas in their motorcycle division. He is a bit sensitive about The Prince of Darkness. :wink:

 John has pretty thick skin ... I hope  :laugh: Seriously , until the Japanese and Germans began to build some motorbikes that didn't vibrate like paint can shakers no electrical systems were very reliable . The Lucas designs weren't bad , given that the British car and MC builders wanted Lucas , (and Amal , Wipac , etc) to almost give their products away .

 Dusty

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Re: Do Blade fuses just get "old"?
« Reply #36 on: May 25, 2016, 09:07:32 AM »
I can state unequivocally there is NO thrill quite like riding a Lucas-equipped bike at night through a curve when the running lights auto-extinguish!
It was a first lesson in navigating by the moon and stars..... :wink:

Offline ibis1

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Re: Do Blade fuses just get "old"?
« Reply #37 on: May 25, 2016, 11:38:56 AM »
Muzz , riders of old English iron needed a spare gallon of Lucas Smoke (TM) in stock all the time  :laugh:

 Dusty

Just in case you run out, the Land Rover Part# is LRSMK001 and we stock it in 55 gallon drums as well! :boozing:
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oldbike54

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Re: Do Blade fuses just get "old"?
« Reply #38 on: May 25, 2016, 11:59:23 AM »
Just in case you run out, the Land Rover Part# is LRSMK001 and we stock it in 55 gallon drums as well! :boozing:

 So is the Land Rover smoke compatible with Jaguar ?

 Dusty

Offline ibis1

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Re: Do Blade fuses just get "old"?
« Reply #39 on: May 25, 2016, 03:18:21 PM »
So is the Land Rover smoke compatible with Jaguar ?

 Dusty

Same exact smoke, just a different label. Some guy once told me Jag smoke leaks out faster, I told him I think he's full of SHI? :boozing:
2010 California Vintage (Gone)
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Offline ITSec

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Re: Do Blade fuses just get "old"?
« Reply #40 on: May 25, 2016, 04:30:31 PM »
Of course, if you translate 'Lucas' into Italian, it comes out as 'Moto Morelli'!  :evil:
ITSecurity
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Offline ibis1

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Re: Do Blade fuses just get "old"?
« Reply #41 on: May 25, 2016, 04:42:42 PM »
Of course, if you translate 'Lucas' into Italian, it comes out as 'Moto Morelli'!  :evil:

They do use a different smoke though. Do NOT use the Jaguar/Land Rover smoke in those vehicles, it will destroy the modules! :boozing:
2010 California Vintage (Gone)
1971 750 Ambassador (Gone)
2014 California Touring

Online Tom H

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Re: Do Blade fuses just get "old"?
« Reply #42 on: May 25, 2016, 05:36:06 PM »
You guys are busting me up, Lucas "The Prince", Morelli  :evil: My 6T and the Ambo resemble those remarks.

BTW: What was this thread about?  :grin:

Tom
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Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: Do Blade fuses just get "old"?
« Reply #43 on: May 25, 2016, 07:13:52 PM »
Just in case you run out, the Land Rover Part# is LRSMK001 and we stock it in 55 gallon drums as well! :boozing:
That would be 44 Gallon drums, imperial gallons remember, they are smokier.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2016, 07:15:01 PM by Kiwi_Roy »
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Offline rodekyll

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Re: Do Blade fuses just get "old"?
« Reply #44 on: May 25, 2016, 09:47:48 PM »


You must replace all your fuses under the light of a blue moon, on Walpurgis night while holding a black dove in your right hand.

I got yer blue moon and all that dovy stuff right here.  Copy and print as needed.






Offline Wayne Orwig

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Re: Do Blade fuses just get "old"?
« Reply #45 on: May 25, 2016, 10:23:54 PM »
Here is a link to my info page on Lucas electrics:

http://tinyurl.com/z258lrz
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Offline Muzz

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Re: Do Blade fuses just get "old"?
« Reply #46 on: May 25, 2016, 10:46:03 PM »
BTW: What was this thread about?  :grin:

Tom

Lucas makes fuses....... :evil: (or used to anyway :undecided:)
Muzz. Cristchurch, New Zealand
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Online Tom H

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Re: Do Blade fuses just get "old"?
« Reply #47 on: May 26, 2016, 12:48:52 AM »
OMG,

That's baaaaaddddd!! :thumb:

Tom
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Offline johnr

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Re: Do Blade fuses just get "old"?
« Reply #48 on: May 26, 2016, 03:18:32 AM »
Hope johnr isn't reading this; he used to work for Lucas in their motorcycle division. He is a bit sensitive about The Prince of Darkness. :wink:

Too late Muzz!! Too late!

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2002 Ev tourer (Stalled again...)

Offline Muzz

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Re: Do Blade fuses just get "old"?
« Reply #49 on: May 26, 2016, 03:56:52 AM »
INCOMMING!!!! :grin:

oops
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Re: Do Blade fuses just get "old"?
« Reply #50 on: May 26, 2016, 05:11:02 AM »
  I made this video last year as a response to fuse requirements for vintage British bikes.... It may apply here...

         https://www.flickr.com/photos/75289626@N08/16217925418/in/dateposted-public/

   

Offline johnr

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Re: Do Blade fuses just get "old"?
« Reply #51 on: May 26, 2016, 08:13:23 AM »
INCOMMING!!!! :grin:

oops

Yep!! And here she goes   :thewife:

When looking at motorcycle systems and design there are a couple of things that should be taken into consideration. They are firstly the technology and materials available at the time and secondly, just what was it intended to do.

Lucas designed and built great and good quality equipment for motorcycles given the time of manufacture. Looking back on these things I have come to believe that simplest was often the best and most reliable. 

For example, My 1950 BSA Gold Flash had a six-volt system that was very reliable once it had been returned to as good as new condition.  I bought another one of these bikes years later as a parts donor for mine which had come to very serious grief. I started using it, but first I re-wired it and installed a brand new proper  motorcycle light unit (to replace the old yellowed car one) and fitted with the appropriate bulb. (18w x18w vertical dip vibration resistant)  It also got the fully reconditioned generator of my original Gold Flash. It put out more light than a brand new car in the next lane at the testing station.  The testers could not believe it!

This and similar machines could have their entire wiring lose all its smoke (love that expression) and still you could ride it as normal. Why? Because these machines were fitted with Magnetos! A wondrous self contained reliable device for making a spark at the plug at the right time and nothing else. They tended not to be fooled with by owners too, which probably helped quite a lot. 
These days you are on the side of the road talking to your dealer if your freeking Speedo craps out!

Lucas though could see which way the world was turning. To supply the ever increasing demand for electrical power on motor cycles the generator was going to have to get way too big.  As a result they designed an alternator system for them. This was first applied to  a production Triumph in 1954.

Wait What? That was years before Solid state Diodes or Transistors had even remotely come on stream.  How on earth were they going to control this thing? Well they did it through switching. This wasn't the best way but it was the best they could do with the technology at the time. 

It produced a complicated wiring system that while it worked, went belly up if the average motorcyclist of the day, who didn't like wires all over his machine, so much as looked at it sideways. It was this system that earned them their "Prince of Darkness" moniker.  The problem was they were just a few years ahead of their time.

Most manufacturers stayed with generator systems right up into the late 1960s for this reason. One of the last to convert was guess who? Moto Guzzi. Check out the size of the generator on a 1970 V7!  It was a full size car one!

The thing is you can nearly always fix a fault with the generator system 'on the side of the road' so to speak, or at least with minimal help and technology. Good luck, though, especially in those days, finding a rectifier on your trip through Mongolia.

Once solid state rectifiers and Zenor Diodes came into play we had a simple reliable system again, though a little more complex than the old generator one, but one that was much more powerful than the by then venerable 6v 60watt generator.
 
Generators are still a good reliable way to supply electricity on systems where size is not an issue and are often used in such to this day.

I can honestly say that nearly all the problems I had to solve while working for Lucas were as a result of old age and neglect and/or systems being fooled with by owners who had neither the knowledge nor the skills.

There were exceptions of course, like the guy who was looking for a strange collection of electrical parts. He had been following his mates tail light one night. His mate missed a corner and sailed off a cliff into a river. The guy following, just kept doing it. Splash!

While I was there we also did a roaring trade in Lucas light units and Girling Shock absorbers for Japanese bikes. Japan appeared to be incapable of making either at that time.  Their wiring systems at that time were a huge step backwards as well, but there was little that could be reasonably done about that.

I had a little side earner going re wiring bikes in those days, but I wouldn't touch a Japper. For starters I couldn't read the Japanese writing on all the little gizmos they wired in to try and make it work.

Frankly, though I was no longer working for them, I was sad when Lucas went down. The loss of resource to the public was immense as it either owned or was the distribution company for a lot of other companies.  It was a one-stop shop for Girling/Lockheed, Siba(sp?) (who made mainly very high end searchlights like the ones found on fire engines up to warships.) CAV, Simms diesel, Zenith Stromberg and Solex carbs in NZ anyway,  and so on.

Any questions?  :laugh:

Fuses.
Now then, Fuses do have a life albeit a long one under ideal conditions.  The thing is they have two ratings. The "This will blow it" rating, and a "continuous load" rating. 

So a 15amp Lucas fuse is intended to blow if 15+amps is fed through it. How ever if loaded less than the 15amps but more than it's continuous rating (much lower. See chart below) continuously, it will shorten the life of a fuse by quite a substantial amount.

Now this, due to a misplaced key stab is the second time I written up this blurb. The first time was much more entertaining but was being done from memory alone, but this time I decided to check my facts on the way they are rated.

Guess what! It's different in the US to the way it's done in England! Of course it is! (Cantankerous yanks! Even drive on the wrong side! They rate petrol in a unique way too)  :rolleyes:

The English (read Lucas ) way is to rate a fuse by it's "blow me now" ampage whilst the US method is to rate them by their "continuous load" rating.

Edit.
A memory stirred at this. On checking it out I found that later Lucas fuses had both ratings on them to avoid confusion. 


You really would not want to get these confused.   If you did you could easily get a situation where the fuse held while the wiring burned!

 

Here is the chart.

I can't vouch for the veracity of this chart and I do have some doubts about it. I note that in all cases the continuous rating is shown as 1/2 the 'fast blow rating. I have a feeling that that is a bit arbitrary and that the continuous rating should be higher than that.

British Lucas Fuse        ~ American BUSS Fuse
Fast Blow    Dual Rating ~ Continuous (AGC)    Alternate Opinion (SFE ?)
50 amp         25/50 amp  ~ 25 amp                           25 amp SFE
35 amp         17/35 amp  ~ 17 amp                           20 amp SFE
30 amp         15/30 amp  ~ 15 amp                           15 amp SFE (too short ?)
25 amp         12/25 amp  ~ 12 amp                           15 amp SFE (too short ?)
20 amp         10/20 amp  ~ 10 amp
15 amp         7.5/15 amp ~ 8 amp
10 amp          5 /10 amp  ~ 5 amp
 5 amp          2.5 / 5 amp ~  3 amp
 2 amp            1 / 2 amp  ~ 1 amp

I have absolutely no idea how the Italians or other Europeans do it, but I intend to find out.

At the end of the day I carry spare fuses.

If one blows for no obvious reason I will put it down to the 'Will Of Allah' (the great blower of fuses) and replace it.

If it blows again either immediately or shortly there after that indicates a fault in that circuit that will need to be found before it's used again.

Another 'Deep sigh' (we need an emoticon for that)  about simple systems.  The Gold Flash only had one fuse. So did the Rocket 3, though had I kept it it would have got a second one. One for the lighting and one for the ignition.   

Another word about Lucas reliability. In all the 37 years I owned the Rocket 3 I only recall ever blowing a fuse once. It was a 15 amp one and occurred through uncontrolled charging current. (The Zenor had shorted out on the clutch cable)

I must admit however to going through a few Zenors (on occasion due to corrosion, but  usually just on spec) and a few rectifiers.

IMHO the rectifier was the weakest point in this system which started to show up on the triples as they had a higher output alternator than other Lucas equipped bikes. The cooling of the rectifier could have been improved with better placement too.  I solved the problem by fitting two of them in parallel.

venting done   :coffee:
« Last Edit: May 26, 2016, 11:35:22 AM by johnr »
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2002 Ev tourer (Stalled again...)

oldbike54

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Re: Do Blade fuses just get "old"?
« Reply #52 on: May 26, 2016, 08:45:26 AM »
 I'm gonna need more  :coffee: and read that again Johnr  :laugh:

 Actually , what John is saying has also been my experience , that 1/2 wave plate rectifier is the weak link . Heck , even if had just been isolation mounted to keep the vibration at bay they probably would have been fine .

 Now John , let's do be honest , the old Lucas fixed magnet mags could be a bit of a pain , but damn did they throw a fat hot spark .

 Dusty

Offline johnr

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Re: Do Blade fuses just get "old"?
« Reply #53 on: May 26, 2016, 09:04:22 AM »

 Now John , let's do be honest , the old Lucas fixed magnet mags could be a bit of a pain , but damn did they throw a fat hot spark .

 Dusty

If something had to be done to them yes. You needed to know what you were doing or it was best left to an expert. Fortunately they usually had to be very old before anything needed doing, and then it was usually just bearings, pick up brush and maybe pick up rotor and or points.

The main difference between a magneto and coil ignition was that the faster you ran a mag the better it went. The opposite was true for coil ignition.  It meant though that a mag fired bike was producing it's weakest spark when you were trying to start it.

Having said that, when I rebuilt a 1953 Royal Enfield 500 Bullet I owned for a few years I took the mag in to be rebuilt with encapsulated coils.  The auto Electrician I took it to sent it off to a crowd in Wellington that does aircraft mags. When I got it back I checked it by turning it over slowly by hand. No less than 2" of fat blue spark was the result! That was good enough for me!

There is a lot to be said for magnetos. The early Norton Commandos even had a space to put one if that was your preference.
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Offline johnr

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Re: Do Blade fuses just get "old"?
« Reply #54 on: May 26, 2016, 09:07:08 AM »
also been my experience , that 1/2 wave plate rectifier is the weak link . Heck , even if had just been isolation mounted to keep the vibration at bay they probably would have been fine .
Dusty

I think they were under cooled too Dusty.
New Zealand
2002 Ev tourer (Stalled again...)

oldbike54

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Re: Do Blade fuses just get "old"?
« Reply #55 on: May 26, 2016, 09:52:58 AM »
I think they were under cooled too Dusty.

 I agree .

 Dusty

Offline johnr

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Re: Do Blade fuses just get "old"?
« Reply #56 on: May 26, 2016, 10:06:05 AM »
Hope johnr isn't reading this; he used to work for Lucas in their motorcycle division. He is a bit sensitive about The Prince of Darkness. :wink:

Actually Muzz, There wasn't any official motor cycle division in Lucas, at least in New Zealand.  It just so happened that in the parts department I was the only bloke that knew anything about them, so I became 'It' for anything to do with them.

While in effect I was Lucas NZ  motorcycles all by myself this was not officially recognised and was not reflected in my pay packet. They were getting far more from me though than could be expected from an ordinary Storeman.

I was even most of the way through writing a Girling motorcycle parts list that would have allowed them to reduce stock while still being able to supply as before when things ended.

In the end, because of this disparity I started losing interest in the Firm. If I had spent the night in Hamilton with my girlfriend and was faced with a 74 mile ride to work in the rain at 6am in the morning, well I started missing days at work.

Such a thing has a natural conclusion. I was fired, but when I turned up later in that day to collect my pay I was called into the Personal Managers office. He had found a job for me with a sub agent.

Actually, during that time I seriously considered going out on my own as a mail order motor cycle electrical supply outfit and form a supply line for MC shops and individuals. . This would extend to non Lucas gear and I envisaged ultimately have a workshop too.  It depended though on being able to import Lucas motorcycle stuff at the same cost as Lucas could and not be in competition with the parent company.

All motor cycle stuff was slow moving stock for Lucas and when I discussed the idea with them they were delighted for me to take the line from them. How ever we had import licencing in those days and they were not prepared to give up that amount of their licence. The idea fell by the wayside.

 
« Last Edit: May 26, 2016, 11:15:05 AM by johnr »
New Zealand
2002 Ev tourer (Stalled again...)

Offline johnr

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Re: Do Blade fuses just get "old"?
« Reply #57 on: May 26, 2016, 10:32:52 AM »
  I made this video last year as a response to fuse requirements for vintage British bikes.... It may apply here...

         https://www.flickr.com/photos/75289626@N08/16217925418/in/dateposted-public/

   

Well you have a fuse that can carry more amps than the wires feeding it so the wires burn.  Aaahh... yes? I don't quite get the point? 

I mean in any system the wiring has a certain amount of amps that it has to carry.
You don't need wires that carry any more than that baring a suitable safety margin.
You then bung in a fuse that will blow before the wires do.
So your video demonstrates what happens in a straight short with gigamungous fuse in the line. 
Is that the point? Don't use fuses of higher ampage than required?
New Zealand
2002 Ev tourer (Stalled again...)

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Re: Do Blade fuses just get "old"?
« Reply #58 on: May 27, 2016, 06:54:20 AM »
 John, it's sarcasm in response to the constant wiring issues some have with old British bikes and the well worn Lucas jokes......When I used a short length of 16 gauge wire the 40 amp fuse blew immediately on a bolted short...I added more wire and resistance till it smoked...
 

Offline johnr

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Re: Do Blade fuses just get "old"?
« Reply #59 on: May 27, 2016, 08:58:42 AM »
Oh, Ok, I understand... I think?

Look at that? We have an entertaining thread bubbling away nicely then along comes me with a run off at the finger tips and it all goes dead! I might have to curb that tendency.
New Zealand
2002 Ev tourer (Stalled again...)

 

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