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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: 1BADMGX on April 01, 2019, 10:12:23 PM

Title: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
Post by: 1BADMGX on April 01, 2019, 10:12:23 PM
I will soon be getting a PCV & autotuner for my Mgx-21 after my Agostini exhaust & high flow filter with open air box lid install.
The PCV has an option for a quick shifter (installed on linkage) like I had on my Ducati, & I really enjoyed it. The question is has anyone here installed one on a Mgx-21 or the California 1400? If so, how did you like it? Thanks Alex

Title: Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
Post by: pete roper on April 01, 2019, 11:49:08 PM
Ah, you've drunk the GT cool-aid. Good luck with that. A quick shifter on something with a 10kg clutch and flywheel assembly will be about as much use as wings on a whale and completely unnecessary if you preload the lever and let the laws of physics do their thing.

Pete
Title: Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
Post by: 1BADMGX on April 02, 2019, 08:23:33 AM
Ah, you've drunk the GT cool-aid. Good luck with that. A quick shifter on something with a 10kg clutch and flywheel assembly will be about as much use as wings on a whale and completely unnecessary if you preload the lever and let the laws of physics do their thing.

Pete

Since this is my 1st Guzzi, I was not aware that the clutch weighs 22lbs, so are you saying that because of the centrifugal force of the spinning clutch that a device that cuts the fuel or spark will not "unload " the transmission enough to do clutchless up shifting?
And when you say preload the lever, are you talking about speedshifting?
Title: Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
Post by: oldbike54 on April 02, 2019, 08:59:02 AM
 Put a Beetle map in the thing .

 What Pete is trying to tell you is that a bike with a heavy engine speed clutch won't benefit from a quick shifter . Preloading the shifter means putting some pressure on the shift pedal before actually making the shift .

 Dusty
Title: Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
Post by: nick949 on April 02, 2019, 09:08:42 AM
I'm thinking I'll put one on the Nuovo Falcone. Then I'll only have to say "Saskatche...." and "Mississip..." between gear changes.  :evil:

Nick
Title: Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
Post by: Roebling3 on April 02, 2019, 09:54:39 AM
1st off: I know nothing about MGX's other than they are large, heavy and unlikely to be found on a road race track; other than a 'play date' w/Harley's, Visions, et. al.
Imagine a quick shifter in its more typical application of road race and drag race bikes, - bikes trying to shave fractions of a second off lap or 1/4 mile times.
Quick shifters are for bikes designed for race bikes and for those riders needing assistance to ride. The focus, from the ground up to be light weight with excellent handling. They must deliver max. power smoothly through hundreds of gear changes per race. At the same time relieving the rider of throttle and clutch work.
With the horse power & torque your bike offers at near walking speeds to red line I can only ask why?
If a QS could be adapted, successfully to an MGX I think it would be barely useful in everyday riding. 
Anyone willing to guess the difference in weight of the MGX clutch and gear set? Compared to ? R3~   
Title: Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
Post by: Perazzimx14 on April 02, 2019, 10:13:30 AM
Ah, you've drunk the GT cool-aid. Good luck with that. A quick shifter on something with a 10kg clutch and flywheel assembly will be about as much use as wings on a whale and completely unnecessary if you preload the lever and let the laws of physics do their thing.

Pete

Quick shifting on a Guzzi

1. Put foot on lever and preload
2. Roll off the gas
3. Pull in clutch
4. Press or pull up on the shifter (sometime 3 or 4 times until the gears engage)
5. Let out the clutch
6. Roll on the throttle

If you did this all in 5 or less seconds you have just quick shifted a Guzzi.

Putting a quick shifter on a Guzzi is like putting a spoiler and sport tuned suspension on a backhoe.
Title: Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
Post by: oldbike54 on April 02, 2019, 10:22:58 AM
 ^^^ :laugh:

 The 1400's actually shift nicely , well , for a Guzzi anyway  :rolleyes:

 Dusty
Title: Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
Post by: Old Jock on April 02, 2019, 10:48:46 AM
As I know zip about them new fangled modern Guzzis, I cannot offer much, but this is the first I heard of anybody wanting to put a quick shifter on a Guzzi.

I'm not having a go, so please don't read it that way

Unless you need the extra seconds shaved (and are willing to pay the price in wear and tear) or have a disability that a quick shifter might solve, I'd stay away from quick shifters in general.

Seems odd to want to install one on such a heavy bike built to cruise (and I really like the MGX's killer looks) but it's the OP's bike and the choice is his

Anyway even bikes that you'd think would be able to cope with them very often cannot.

I have a Ducati 1098 as well and they were renowned for their chocolate boxes. Mainly because the track brigade immediately started slapping QS's on and then there was a rash of very nasty gearbox failures. The standard shift on the 1098 is that slick that I often think that the bike hasn't gone up or down the box because there is virtually no resistance at the lever.

I'm just not a fan it goes against my natural mechanical sympathies, Oh and did I mention I'm old very old and feeling it

John
Title: Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
Post by: kingoffleece on April 02, 2019, 11:16:56 AM
I get confused by the Dynojet comments.  I've been involved with dozens of installs and have seen zero problems.
In 2008 I put a PCIII in my 2008 Rocket 3.  Sold it at 14,000 miles and the guy that bought it has over 50,000 trouble free miles on it now.

We put Power Commanders into Daytona sport bikes like crazy thru a local partner who would map the bikes.  These owners would go all over the east coast and thrash the bikes at the track.  Never one failure due to the PC.  What am I missing?

The same partner would map dozens of motocross bikes (we have a nice track nearby and these folks go all over with 125's, 250's, and a few bigger bikes).  His door was nonstop with customers. I'd speculate the results must have been satisfactory for those folks or they wouldn't have been going back.
Title: Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
Post by: oldbike54 on April 02, 2019, 11:27:54 AM
I get confused by the Dynojet comments.  I've been involved with dozens of installs and have seen zero problems.
In 2008 I put a PCIII in my 2008 Rocket 3.  Sold it at 14,000 miles and the guy that bought it has over 50,000 trouble free miles on it now.

We put Power Commanders into Daytona sport bikes like crazy thru a local partner who would map the bikes.  These owners would go all over the east coast and thrash the bikes at the track.  Never one failure due to the PC.  What am I missing?

The same partner would map dozens of motocross bikes (we have a nice track nearby and these folks go all over with 125's, 250's, and a few bigger bikes).  His door was nonstop with customers. I'd speculate the results must have been satisfactory for those folks or they wouldn't have been going back.

 Here is the issue , a Beetle map actually fixes what might be wrong with the factory map , a Power Commander only masks any problems . Sure , they can help , in some cases , but they can also lead to over fueling . Thousands of motorbikes are running sans mufflers , so just because something is in widely accepted doesn't mean it actually improves performance .

 Dusty
Title: Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
Post by: pete roper on April 02, 2019, 11:49:38 AM
Since this is my 1st Guzzi, I was not aware that the clutch weighs 22lbs, so are you saying that because of the centrifugal force of the spinning clutch that a device that cuts the fuel or spark will not "unload " the transmission enough to do clutchless up shifting?
And when you say preload the lever, are you talking about speedshifting?

For upshifting there is absolutely no need for a quick shifter. Once you are out of first simply preload the lever and twitch the throttle. Going down there is simply too much mass in the driveline to safely and reliably be able to crash it through. It will also achieve you nothing discernible in terms of shift rapidity. The Cali 14's have a face cam shock absorber on the input shaft and the box shifts pretty well but any machine with a heel/toe shifter and multiple linkages will always have more slack in the mechanism than a direct lever mechanism.

As to the PC issue? The problems with PC's with later MM systems have been covered many times before, it's not worth endlessly repeating them. Those who want to believe in Magic boxes will continue to believe and those that know better don't.

One thing I would like to know is where the PC gets its throttle input and power from? The demand sensor is a four-way TPS effectively and if one of the signals goes out of range it will trigger a 'Service' warning. Since aPC loads down the TPS something fierce on earlier non RBW systems I can't see how taking a signal from the demand sensor wouldn't do the same? Just a casual interest as I'd rather stick pins in my privates than low one near any bike of mine.

Pete
Title: Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
Post by: kingoffleece on April 02, 2019, 12:05:12 PM
Trying to learn here.  Not poke needles in my privates.
Title: Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
Post by: Roebling3 on April 02, 2019, 12:27:21 PM
My favorite gear boxes seem to be in Suzuki's, Honda's, Aprilia's and Mack truck's. An acquaintance, seriously abusive to machines, up shifted on 'valve float' and later on bikes w/ rev limiters, in what he called 'bumping the pin'. To each his own.
My V7 III will shift, noiseless and lurch-less, up or down gear, if the road speed is above 40 m/h. (it does howl in every gear). I've had too many Yamahas, Suzukis and Hondas to list here; none needed a clutch  to shift, once they were rolling. (same for Mack trucks). I drank enough Kool Aide to own 7 bmw's.  2 shifted well. The first Guzzi I rode was an LM I at the old Loudon, NH track. A sweet shifting bike!  Who knew? Just don't ask me to ride w/floor boards.  R3~ 
Title: Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
Post by: oldbike54 on April 02, 2019, 01:09:45 PM
Trying to learn here.  Not poke needles in my privates.

 Ouch  :laugh:

 We are all trying to learn , hopefully  :thumb:

 Dusty
Title: Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
Post by: kingoffleece on April 02, 2019, 03:06:40 PM
Agreed.  And, I';m not drinking anybody's Kool Aid.
I understand Empirical experience is not definitive nor is my sample size representative of n the entire whole.  Nonetheless, it is what it is.  I've seen plenty of air/fuel charts after PC modification that would lead one to believe the A/F readings were good across the board as cell were adjusted.
A PC may be a band aid, I understand that.  But if the A/F reading are good bottom to top I have a few questions.

First, is that not a valid representation of neither over or under fueling?  If so, how?  That's a serious question, not some rhetorical statement meant to start an argument.

Second, I have zero experience with the PC on a Guzzi.  Is there something in the ECU that makes it's use something just short of a national disaster?

I GET that a proper map is best.  I have two bikes like that now.  But if the A/F mixture is proper what's the issue with how it got there?  Again, serious question.

And how shall I process the fact that dozens of track day junkies in my neck of the woods are more than satisfied with the performance of their track day bikes?  Again, serious question?

I'm old enough to be "learned" without my feelings being hurt.  I have no dog in the fight-I simply need more information, and prefer it being presented in an adult manor-sort of like if we were having a nice campfire, bourbon, and cigar at a rally, if you please.
Title: Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
Post by: Roebling3 on April 02, 2019, 04:57:28 PM
For some, and sometimes many, what ever the verbal hot ticket to power - alleged or real - - If it was their choice and their $$$ it works great. dyno read-outs, especially those printed, are at least worth the paper on which they are printed. On a race track it's rider skill; most often late braking and an early out.  R3~
Title: Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
Post by: twowings on April 02, 2019, 06:21:15 PM
Power Commander = BandAid

Take it to the nearest river bridge in the dead of night, place in a burlap sack, and drown it...
Title: Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
Post by: kingoffleece on April 02, 2019, 06:30:44 PM
That doesn't really help now, does it?
Yes, graphs can show many different things-what about the A/F mixtures?

You guys talk like it's the antichrist but the empirical results say otherwise.  Many of these guys know how to ride and competed at a professional level.
Title: Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
Post by: kingoffleece on April 02, 2019, 06:32:28 PM
Not to mention that we have a world class snowmobile racing shop here and they use PC's on all their  race sleds and drag sleds.
Title: Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
Post by: twowings on April 02, 2019, 06:34:32 PM
Racing <> real, world drivability, economy, and tractibility - two different worlds...
Title: Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
Post by: kingoffleece on April 02, 2019, 06:35:42 PM
"Take it to the rive and drown it..."

I should have know better.  Thank you.
Sorry I asked.  No need for further replies.  I'll find additional information on my own.
Carry on.
Title: Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
Post by: jacksonracingcomau on April 02, 2019, 08:40:41 PM
back ot
Pete touched on it
quickshifter is now a riding aid
like abs, tc, easy running from cold, digital gear position etc etc etc
not about need for most it is a perceived gain
read the v85 tt reviews “ needs a quickshifter”
penny to a pound v85 le mans gets one
one day the things will change gear for you
and brake before you hit something
keep you in lane
etc etc
hello autonomous vehicles we’re not far away
Title: Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
Post by: bad Chad on April 02, 2019, 09:20:24 PM
I’ll say this. The PCll I think it was, made my 99 Bass’s run much better than it did, and I’m talking drivability!  It was what I thought pretty good, until I took it to a Guzzi shop that pulled it completely out, and yet it was made to run far better than any time before.
Title: Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
Post by: Bulldog9 on April 02, 2019, 09:24:19 PM
Augostinis yes... The rest of it you'd be well advised as others have said above to save your money get a beetle map skip that quickshifter crap and enjoy your Moto Guzzi.

Just saved you about $2,000, and if you download Guzzi diag, and buy the cables, you will put an outstanding tool in your hands to tune, adjust, and monitor the health of your motorcycle motor.

I'm by no means an expert in Moto Guzzi, but my experience so far other than my V7ii is that the flywheel and rotating mass of the driveline does not lend itself to speed shifting quick-clutchless shifting Etc. You're not buying a race bike you're buying a power cruiser at best. Keeping your stock intake and filter, a properly tuned Map (Beetle) for your exhaust, skip the power Commander add-on crap and open air intake.

Title: Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
Post by: 1BADMGX on April 02, 2019, 11:12:11 PM
Ok guys, I want to say thank you for all your views & advice both publicly & privately.

I realize that there are many ways & mods one can do to a motorcycle to end up with similar results.

The reason why Im going with the PCV, auto tuner & reflashed ECU is that I have some experience with them on my Ducati Hypermotard & KTM 1290R Superduke, and there's a local Guzzi tuner near me that puts them on the Guzzies even though the Dynojet website has no listings. The PCVs has worked really well for me with great dyno result.

Now if some of you have never tried a quick shifter, maybe you should, for me its really fun to pin the throttle and just bang at the shift lever (upshift)  & get perfect shifts.
With a quick shifter installed you can still shift the bike like normally using the clutch.

Some of you have suggested to preload the shift lever before using the clutch which I would not recommend doing, as this would put a lot of pressure on the transmission shifting forks, and can bend & damage them.

Since this is my first Guzzi I've ridden, I wanted to say that the 1400 motor transmission shifts really well with short positive shifts. (Compared to a Harley)

I also know that the Mgx is not a race bike,  but if I can make the bike accelerate better with less chance of missing a gear I definitely would. Like I said it's also a lot of fun.

The question I was asking is if anybody here has installed a quick shifter on a Guzzi, or is not possible because of the design/weight of the clutch?
Thanks again Alex.
Title: Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
Post by: oldbike54 on April 02, 2019, 11:19:59 PM
 I've been preloading the shifter for 40 years , haven't ever bent a shifting fork .

 As for the other stuff , do what you want , but Pete likely knows more about 1400 Moto Guzzi tuning than anyone , and Beetle has a lot of satisfied customers . Spends your money , takes your chances , I just don't care for add on stuff when there is a simpler solution .

 Dusty
Title: Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
Post by: 1BADMGX on April 03, 2019, 12:33:02 AM
I've been preloading the shifter for 40 years , haven't ever bent a shifting fork .

 As for the other stuff , do what you want , but Pete likely knows more about 1400 Moto Guzzi tuning than anyone , and Beetle has a lot of satisfied customers . Spends your money , takes your chances , I just don't care for add on stuff when there is a simpler solution .

 Dusty

Thanks Dusty for all your help, along with the other members, I wanted to let you know that I take everything you guys say into consideration. That's why I joined this forum.


I have no doubt that the Beetle map is a good thing, as long as the mods are similar from bike to bike. The auto tuner to adjust the PCV  is supposedly able to make fueling adjustments no matter what changes are made  to the bike, such as pipes, open air boxes, cams, high compression pistons, riding in the hot low desert or the cold high mountains. It will compensate & adjust the fueling so that the bike runs good all the time. (Supposedly)

Im also glad that you've never had a transmission issue.
But from what I know, by preloading the shifter you're forcing the shifting fork to push on the gear to move/slide it, and when the transmission is in gear & under load it will not move, untill the clutch is used. That is when you can damage or wear the shifting forks.

I apologize if I might be misunderstanding your description of preloading the shifter.
Title: Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
Post by: pete roper on April 03, 2019, 12:33:40 AM
Not suggesting you preload the lever before using the clutch, simply preloading it and then twitch the throttle off and on, it'll shift quick enough. No the side pressure won't damage the forks.

The 'Nuovo six speed' is a nice box. Upshifting clutchless is really not a problem, it just requires a twitch of the wrist rather than relying on a solenoid to perform the same task.

Pete
Title: Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
Post by: Smithy on April 03, 2019, 05:34:44 AM
Quickshifters rule, Items that are a must on any new bike..heated grips, cruise control and after riding a new GS BMW and Aprilia Tuono a quickshifter.

Just do it man..
Title: Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
Post by: fossil on April 03, 2019, 05:57:55 AM
Quickshifters rule, Items that are a must on any new bike..heated grips, cruise control and after riding a new GS BMW and Aprilia Tuono a quickshifter.

Just do it man..

What about a heated seat, an automatic gearbox, radio and a coffemaker? And a must for a GS (at least obviously here in Germany) is a yellow vest.
Title: Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
Post by: lucian on April 03, 2019, 06:44:56 AM
I wouldn't even consider a QS on any bike as heavy and with as much engine and drive line mass as a 1400. I also wouldn't have one on any bike that didn't have a cassette gearbox. Splitting cases to replace gears with rounded off engagement dogs is no fun and can get quite expensive. I have zero experience with PC's and such but I can vouch first hand for the fantastic improvements you will achieve with one of Beetle's creations. After all ,the beauty of programmable FI is the ability to customize the fueling to your specific set up and be done with it. No extra widget to think about. I would also be afraid of the PC causing  voltage anomalies in the RBW demand sensor circuits. You could be left crawling home in limp mode with the red triangle on the dash,, or worse.   I wish you luck however with your endeavor, please keep us posted on your outcomes.  :thumb:
Title: Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
Post by: Bulldog9 on April 03, 2019, 08:00:07 AM
Exactly.

Guzzi Diag cables and a proper map is what $125 out of pocket?  With a proper map, and a full diagnosis suite and cables you can use on ANY bike, and with tuner pro the brave can make their own additions. A PC is sometimes the only and common option (my FJR), so it is the best option for performance improvements, but thanks to the hard work of Mark and this community, a PC is a waste of $$ and rife with potential problems. Plus the single bike tool from GT is disgustingly overpriced and far less useful.

I wouldn't even consider a QS on any bike as heavy and with as much engine and drive line mass as a 1400. I also wouldn't have one on any bike that didn't have a cassette gearbox. Splitting cases to replace gears with rounded off engagement dogs is no fun and can get quite expensive. I have zero experience with PC's and such but I can vouch first hand for the fantastic improvements you will achieve with one of Beetle's creations. After all ,the beauty of programmable FI is the ability to customize the fueling to your specific set up and be done with it. No extra widget to think about. I would also be afraid of the PC causing  voltage anomalies in the RBW demand sensor circuits. You could be left crawling home in limp mode with the red triangle on the dash,, or worse.   I wish you luck however with your endeavor, please keep us posted on your outcomes.  :thumb:
Title: Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
Post by: wirespokes on April 03, 2019, 08:29:28 AM
Both the Guzzis and BMW twins benefit from loading the shifter. It doesn't require any force, just removing the play from the system while the revs are dropping and then the clutch pulled in. Smooth is the watchword here, not speed. Been riding airhead beemers since the 90s and guzzis several years now with no transmission issues.

If you've got money to throw at the bike, why not? But you know, these bikes are more like endurance racers than drag racers or sprinters. If a fraction of a second makes that much of a difference, you're riding the wrong bike. The kind of race these bikes are good for is to the next state or half way across the country. Get it going and just go!

I'm not into computers on vehicles, but I will say this - rather than adding a second computer to correct the first only makes sense to me if there's no way to correct the first one.

Finally, before making a lot of changes to a 'new' bike you're unfamiliar with, it only seems logical to me to become well acquainted first. I've seen this a lot with guys wanting to modify the old beemers and it's the same thing. We'd tell them to get to know the bike and give it time to 'talk' to you. Those that did went a different direction with much less radical changes.

Maybe it's that we're mostly old farts here who've gotten racing out of our systems (though we still like going fast) and the bikes accelerate plenty fast as they are - definitely faster than when we were in race mode many years back. I know I don't push my bikes anywhere near as hard as they could be most of the time, so I see no reason for faster shifts. Perhaps save the guzzi for relaxed rides and use the Duck for that acceleration fix? But it sounds like you've already made up your mind and are looking for positive reinforcement. Good luck!
Title: Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
Post by: Bulldog9 on April 03, 2019, 09:38:08 PM
I've not tried pre-loading the shifter on my Norge or Griso. When I first got them I tried to do some clutchless shifting (as on other bikes)  but it didn't feel right and it was a bit too lurchy for my taste, at least based on how I normally ride. I'm perfectly content using the clutch, but will try this technique the next time I ride hopefully tomorrow morning :-)
Title: Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
Post by: kingoffleece on April 03, 2019, 10:13:12 PM
Pre-loading works a treat.  You'll be pleased I'd wager.
Title: Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
Post by: jacksonracingcomau on April 04, 2019, 04:10:25 AM
For upshifting there is absolutely no need for a quick shifter. Once you are out of first simply preload the lever and twitch the throttle. Going down there is simply too much mass in the driveline to safely and reliably be able to crash it through.
Pete
+  :thumb:
Clutchess up we learnt as kids, but down I can do too, just not when pulling the anchors ! my brain is  not fast enough.
Just maybe the pc doodad is cleverer,kills till engaged, to the millisecond, only needs speed and rpm to calculate
And now you don't have to learn how to twitch a throttle, maybe most here won't
Could be seen as progress even ?
Title: Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
Post by: wirespokes on April 04, 2019, 07:02:00 AM
Someone joked recently the best anti-theft device is a shift lever. Maybe not on bikes...

I've never shifted up clutchless - are you saying all bikes can be shifted up safely without pulling the lever?

Title: Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
Post by: Luap McKeever on April 04, 2019, 07:31:08 AM
Guess I need to get out of the woods more often. This post has me confused and proves I am out of touch when it comes to shifting. Maybe I've been doing it wrong with Guzzi for 200,000+ miles.  Silly me, I've always just throttled up to the right RPM, rolled off the throttle at the same time pulling in the clutch, then shifted the gear, let out the clutch at the same time as rolling back on the throttle. All of this takes about .25 seconds, which I thought was pretty quick. I've never given it a moments thought. Shows you want I know  :evil:

What's all this pre-load nonsense anyways? Just ride your motorcycle. :thumb:
Title: Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
Post by: Huzo on November 10, 2019, 01:40:49 PM
so are you saying that because of the centrifugal force of the spinning clutch
”centrifugal force” of itself is a misnomer, but we all know what we mean..(well, most of us)
The term you are searching for is “angular momentum”, or in everyday terms..
“The tendency for the flywheel to want to keep spinning after you’ve buttoned off”...Issac Newton didn’t coin that one.
And..
If ANYONE says that clutchless shifts are completely harmless, it’s all going to start again.
By doing so, you are NOT allowing ANY time for the massive flywheel and crankshaft to adopt the new RPM required for the gear you have selected..
With a clutchless shift, how long is it between the disengagement of one gear and the engagement of the next ?
0.1 seconds, 0.2 seconds ?
That’s how long you are allowing for the combined mass of the rotating engine internals to drop 500 or so rpm with no cushioning of the mechanicals.
It’s not hard to calculate the force required to accellerate (or decellerate) the combined mass of the clutch, crankshaft and sundry rotating internals from one steady state to one 500 rpm different.
Would you put your bike in gear, attach a socket and breaker bar to the nut in the front of the timing chest, then flog it with a 9 lb sledge hammer ?
Surely you’d say..” No way, it’ll root up the drive train”....Touche’

Go and buy an R1 and destroy that..
Title: Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
Post by: Huzo on November 10, 2019, 01:50:09 PM
Guess I need to get out of the woods more often. This post has me confused and proves I am out of touch when it comes to shifting. Maybe I've been doing it wrong with Guzzi for 200,000+ miles.  Silly me, I've always just throttled up to the right RPM, rolled off the throttle at the same time pulling in the clutch, then shifted the gear, let out the clutch at the same time as rolling back on the throttle. All of this takes about .25 seconds, which I thought was pretty quick. I've never given it a moments thought. Shows you want I know  :evil:

What's all this pre-load nonsense anyways? Just ride your motorcycle. :thumb:
Luap.
What you’re doing is riding your bike expertly and smoothly and I’ll wager that I could sit on the back of your bike with ear plugs and not know you’d shifted gear, if you really put your mind to it.
That does not mean that you are not performing a myriad of well timed mechanical functions in unison to achieve a smooth shift.
I have had occasion to see my right and left hands on video while shifting on my Norge and was a little surprised at the subtlety of movements that I was unaware that I did.
Point is, some of us say “I don’t bother with all that (    )”, but we are doing it as an acquired skill.
Title: Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
Post by: Frenchfrog on November 10, 2019, 02:57:23 PM
 :laugh: Nail on the head about shiftless Huzo... Harry came down from the UK on his new to him BMW .We have know each other since school. Harry allways,has allways and will probebly allways do clutchless gear shifts on all his bikes and cars.When he got down here he was complaining that one of the gears was slipping out of gear.....same thing happened to his MT03 and lord knows how many other vehicles he has owned...He balked when I suggested that there could well be some correlation to be done there !! I never let Harry ride any of my bikes BTW  :grin: :grin:
Title: Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
Post by: Huzo on November 10, 2019, 03:10:02 PM
:laugh: Nail on the head about shiftless Huzo... Harry came down from the UK on his new to him BMW .We have know each other since school. Harry allways,has allways and will probebly allways do clutchless gear shifts on all his bikes and cars.When he got down here he was complaining that one of the gears was slipping out of gear.....same thing happened to his MT03 and lord knows how many other vehicles he has owned...He balked when I suggested that there could well be some correlation to be done there !! I never let Harry ride any of my bikes BTW  :grin: :grin:
I’ve been through this a dozen times here FF and never I cease to be amazed at some of the responses I get from the enlightened ones, not to mention the muppets.
“My mate does it on his Norton”
Or
“It doesn’t hurt anything ‘cos.. ‘cos..’cos.. it’s got a constant mesh ‘box” ????!!
Or
“The gears are already spinning at the correct speed to mesh....!!!?”
For me it has always been about the fact that the rotating internals of the engine have to assume a new RPM figure INSTANTLY at the insistence of the approaching gear dogs that are being forced to engage, with no disconnection from the drivetrain downstream.
I’m bound to admit that a perfectly timed snap shut of the throttle will produce a minutely small unloading of the drive through the ‘box and if you can crash the next gear through at that instant you will achieve some measure of success, but it does NOT get you away from the fact that you’re subjecting your engine to utterly needless butchery.
Title: Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
Post by: Two Checks on November 10, 2019, 03:13:56 PM
If a Guzzi flywheel is to heavy to be shifting sans clutch, I guess truckers best stop doing it.
Title: Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
Post by: Huzo on November 10, 2019, 03:28:03 PM
If a Guzzi flywheel is to heavy to be shifting sans clutch, I guess truckers best stop doing it.
Wrong.
In a road ranger I routinely shift without the clutch..
Like the one in here.
(https://i.ibb.co/tm7C2Kd/84-B44-A84-422-A-41-E4-8-E83-2366-DB05-E4-D5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tm7C2Kd)

The current gear is disengaged and the RPM is raised or lowered 400 revs to match the engine output shaft with the gearbox output shaft.
If you’re joking then I get it, but if not best you stop now or go for a drive in a 15 litre diesel with an 18 speed ‘box and tell me how many teeth (in the gearbox) that you lose.
And by the way..
It’s “too heavy...”
not “to heavy...”
Title: Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
Post by: Roebling3 on November 11, 2019, 10:43:42 AM
What ever happened to the 'beating a dead horse' emo? Rather than the hammer fight scene?
Many 'shifting problems' can be blamed on the manufacturer and sometimes abuse and/or lack of proper maintenance. Certainly MG's gear boxes, in my experience, always feel like pre-1940's design & manufacture. Certainly proper assy. could go a long way toward better shifting transmissions. Modern design &  materials and less drive line weight will make a difference too.
IOW: that howling crap box hung on my V7 III should be embarrassing every Guzzi engineer from day 1! I know; They're all like that. I've tried a bunch.
     But what does that tell you?     R3~ 
Title: Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
Post by: Two Checks on November 11, 2019, 01:46:28 PM


Quote from: Huzo on November 10, 2019, 03:28:03 PM (https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=100357.msg1637901#msg1637901)
Wrong.
In a road ranger I routinely shift without the clutch..
Like the one in here.
>(https://i.ibb.co/tm7C2Kd/84-B44-A84-422-A-41-E4-8-E83-2366-DB05-E4-D5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tm7C2Kd)

The current gear is disengaged and the RPM is raised or lowered 400 revs to match the engine output shaft with the gearbox output shaft.
If you’re joking then I get it, but if not best you stop now or go for a drive in a 15 litre diesel with an 18 speed ‘box and tell me how many teeth (in the gearbox) that you lose.
And by the way..
It’s “too heavy...”
not “to heavy...”
You can thank spel chek for the incorrect spelling.
And since you do it in the truck, it has to be okay on a Guzzi.
I think ya got it.


Title: Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
Post by: Huzo on November 11, 2019, 02:10:00 PM

Quote from: Huzo on November 10, 2019, 03:28:03 PM (https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=100357.msg1637901#msg1637901)
Wrong.
In a road ranger I routinely shift without the clutch..
Like the one in here.
>(https://i.ibb.co/tm7C2Kd/84-B44-A84-422-A-41-E4-8-E83-2366-DB05-E4-D5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tm7C2Kd)

The current gear is disengaged and the RPM is raised or lowered 400 revs to match the engine output shaft with the gearbox output shaft.
If you’re joking then I get it, but if not best you stop now or go for a drive in a 15 litre diesel with an 18 speed ‘box and tell me how many teeth (in the gearbox) that you lose.
And by the way..
It’s “too heavy...”
not “to heavy...”
You can thank spel chek for the incorrect spelling.
And since you do it in the truck, it has to be okay on a Guzzi.
I think ya got it.

I know I have..
You see, here’s the thing. In the truck you can flip the ‘box into neutral between gears while the rpm drops, or is raised to the requisite setting.
Keep going the way you are and you will end up with a ‘box full of neutrals in your Guzzi, or palm it off onto some poor bastard when it starts jumping out of gear.
But while we’re on the subject, do you stop at neutral on the way through the gearbox in your Eaton Fuller Roadranger equipped Kenworth/Iveco/Mack....etc ?
Really, I’m very keen to learn.
Title: Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
Post by: JeffOlson on November 11, 2019, 02:51:54 PM
I had a quick shifter on my 2018 BMW R1200RT. I used it only for downshifts. I did not like it for upshifts; they were a bit jerky. For downshifts, though, it was amazing exiting off the freeway or coming into a slower-speed corner.

However, I can downshift almost as smoothly the old way on my 2016 Norge, and I can upshift more smoothly than the BMW quick shifter did.

(Another feature I never used on the RT: hill-hold; I always just used the rear brake pedal because starting from a stop with hill-hold engaged required much more throttle than normal, sometimes resulting in a stall when the light turned green.)
Title: Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
Post by: Huzo on November 11, 2019, 02:58:28 PM
I had a quick shifter on my 2018 BMW R1200RT. I used it only for downshifts. I did not like it for upshifts; they were a bit jerky. For downshifts, though, it was amazing exiting off the freeway or coming into a slower-speed corner.

However, I can downshift almost as smoothly the old way on my 2016 Norge, and I can upshift more smoothly than the BMW quick shifter did.

(Another feature I never used on the RT: hill-hold; I always just used the rear brake pedal because starting from a stop with hill-hold engaged required much more throttle than normal, sometimes resulting in a stall when the light turned green.)
So does the quick shifter crack the clutch during shifts ?
Title: Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
Post by: Roebling3 on November 13, 2019, 09:07:24 AM
My experience with Road Rangers ended in the late 60's. I only used the clutch going through the 'gate'. Did Eaton acquire Fuller? Can you still buy a Mack with a drop stick, triplex or Q box? Been out of the business since '85. My apologies for the interruption.  R3~
Title: Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
Post by: rocker59 on November 13, 2019, 11:00:03 AM
Did Eaton acquire Fuller? 

Seriously?  My dad was in high school when that happened...

"In 1958 Eaton Corporation acquired Fuller Manufacturing"
Title: Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
Post by: pressureangle on November 13, 2019, 01:55:27 PM
Nobody 'needs' a quick shifter outside of competition.

That said, since when is need the standard?

The question of effect has been answered. The flywheel effect is high, and shift speed won't improve meaningfully.

But will it feel better? Will it be more fun? Will I be able to spill beer on my buddies because they don't have it?

If you have the resources and will to have the PC tuned on a gas-analyzer dynomometer, you probably won't kill the motor by overfueling.
You can achieve equal or better results without the PC, apparently. So why add something that adds a layer to what's already available?

I'm as guilty as anyone in here of spending money on upgrades I didn't 'need'.
Title: Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
Post by: Bulldog9 on November 13, 2019, 05:11:48 PM
What ever happened to the 'beating a dead horse' emo? Rather than the hammer fight scene?
Many 'shifting problems' can be blamed on the manufacturer and sometimes abuse and/or lack of proper maintenance. Certainly MG's gear boxes, in my experience, always feel like pre-1940's design & manufacture. Certainly proper assy. could go a long way toward better shifting transmissions. Modern design &  materials and less drive line weight will make a difference too.
IOW: that howling crap box hung on my V7 III should be embarrassing every Guzzi engineer from day 1! I know; They're all like that. I've tried a bunch.
     But what does that tell you?     R3~

Funny, I've never found the boxes on my Guzzi's (4V GRiSO, 8V Norge, V7ii Stornello, MGX-21) to be anything other than smooth and solid. Certainly not snickety quick and light, but not bad. Granted I came from an FJR to the Griso, and before the FJR a series of bikes (FZ1, C10 Concours, RT 12) and rode Yama XS series bikes for the 30 years prior. You want to talk about a bad transmission....... .. Meet the Yamaha XS11 where 2nd gear is always an adventure.... :cool:  I'm obviously not picky.  The V7 and MGX have noticeably better boxes than the CARC bikes, enabling clutchless up and down shifting, though I rarely do it.... At least on purpose  :coffee:

As others have noted, a quick shift for the street is superfluous, but hey, it's your (that persons) ride.....

Title: Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
Post by: Huzo on November 14, 2019, 02:44:42 AM
I think I must be missing something here..
I didn’t think the main reason to not do it was due to how superfluous it was, more a matter of clutchless shift cumulative damage.
Also whether or not it “can” be done is a moot point..
It’s whether or not it “should” be done.
Am I the only one to think that making your rotating engine, flywheel and clutch mechanisms, alter their rotation rate by 500 rpm in 0.2 seconds by the forced crashing together of uncushioned mechanical parts, is a weeny bit unseemly ?
Of course I could be showing my lack of knowlege here.
Does a quick shifter feather the clutch at the moment of gear selection ?
Title: Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
Post by: Murray on November 14, 2019, 04:08:57 AM
Quickshifters rule, Items that are a must on any new bike..heated grips, cruise control and after riding a new GS BMW and Aprilia Tuono a quickshifter.

Just do it man..

Snowing there already eh? Lake hasn't frozen up enough to go fishing yet?
Title: Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
Post by: Huzo on November 14, 2019, 06:42:47 AM
I will soon be getting a PCV & autotuner for my Mgx-21 after my Agostini exhaust & high flow filter with open air box lid install.
The PCV has an option for a quick shifter (installed on linkage) like I had on my Ducati, & I really enjoyed it. The question is has anyone here installed one on a Mgx-21 or the California 1400? If so, how did you like it? Thanks Alex
You know..
I should keep my unsolicited opinions to myself. Just thinking about it in a sober fashion...
I reckon you deserve one.. :popcorn: