Author Topic: Quick shifter on a Guzzi  (Read 4398 times)

Offline 1BADMGX

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Quick shifter on a Guzzi
« on: April 01, 2019, 10:12:23 PM »
I will soon be getting a PCV & autotuner for my Mgx-21 after my Agostini exhaust & high flow filter with open air box lid install.
The PCV has an option for a quick shifter (installed on linkage) like I had on my Ducati, & I really enjoyed it. The question is has anyone here installed one on a Mgx-21 or the California 1400? If so, how did you like it? Thanks Alex


pete roper

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Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2019, 11:49:08 PM »
Ah, you've drunk the GT cool-aid. Good luck with that. A quick shifter on something with a 10kg clutch and flywheel assembly will be about as much use as wings on a whale and completely unnecessary if you preload the lever and let the laws of physics do their thing.

Pete

Offline 1BADMGX

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Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2019, 08:23:33 AM »
Ah, you've drunk the GT cool-aid. Good luck with that. A quick shifter on something with a 10kg clutch and flywheel assembly will be about as much use as wings on a whale and completely unnecessary if you preload the lever and let the laws of physics do their thing.

Pete

Since this is my 1st Guzzi, I was not aware that the clutch weighs 22lbs, so are you saying that because of the centrifugal force of the spinning clutch that a device that cuts the fuel or spark will not "unload " the transmission enough to do clutchless up shifting?
And when you say preload the lever, are you talking about speedshifting?

oldbike54

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Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2019, 08:59:02 AM »
 Put a Beetle map in the thing .

 What Pete is trying to tell you is that a bike with a heavy engine speed clutch won't benefit from a quick shifter . Preloading the shifter means putting some pressure on the shift pedal before actually making the shift .

 Dusty

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Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2019, 08:59:02 AM »

Offline nick949

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Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2019, 09:08:42 AM »
I'm thinking I'll put one on the Nuovo Falcone. Then I'll only have to say "Saskatche...." and "Mississip..." between gear changes.  :evil:

Nick

Offline Roebling3

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Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2019, 09:54:39 AM »
1st off: I know nothing about MGX's other than they are large, heavy and unlikely to be found on a road race track; other than a 'play date' w/Harley's, Visions, et. al.
Imagine a quick shifter in its more typical application of road race and drag race bikes, - bikes trying to shave fractions of a second off lap or 1/4 mile times.
Quick shifters are for bikes designed for race bikes and for those riders needing assistance to ride. The focus, from the ground up to be light weight with excellent handling. They must deliver max. power smoothly through hundreds of gear changes per race. At the same time relieving the rider of throttle and clutch work.
With the horse power & torque your bike offers at near walking speeds to red line I can only ask why?
If a QS could be adapted, successfully to an MGX I think it would be barely useful in everyday riding. 
Anyone willing to guess the difference in weight of the MGX clutch and gear set? Compared to ? R3~   

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Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2019, 10:13:30 AM »
Ah, you've drunk the GT cool-aid. Good luck with that. A quick shifter on something with a 10kg clutch and flywheel assembly will be about as much use as wings on a whale and completely unnecessary if you preload the lever and let the laws of physics do their thing.

Pete

Quick shifting on a Guzzi

1. Put foot on lever and preload
2. Roll off the gas
3. Pull in clutch
4. Press or pull up on the shifter (sometime 3 or 4 times until the gears engage)
5. Let out the clutch
6. Roll on the throttle

If you did this all in 5 or less seconds you have just quick shifted a Guzzi.

Putting a quick shifter on a Guzzi is like putting a spoiler and sport tuned suspension on a backhoe.
It's the ones who've cracked that the light shines through!

oldbike54

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Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2019, 10:22:58 AM »
 ^^^ :laugh:

 The 1400's actually shift nicely , well , for a Guzzi anyway  :rolleyes:

 Dusty

Offline Old Jock

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Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2019, 10:48:46 AM »
As I know zip about them new fangled modern Guzzis, I cannot offer much, but this is the first I heard of anybody wanting to put a quick shifter on a Guzzi.

I'm not having a go, so please don't read it that way

Unless you need the extra seconds shaved (and are willing to pay the price in wear and tear) or have a disability that a quick shifter might solve, I'd stay away from quick shifters in general.

Seems odd to want to install one on such a heavy bike built to cruise (and I really like the MGX's killer looks) but it's the OP's bike and the choice is his

Anyway even bikes that you'd think would be able to cope with them very often cannot.

I have a Ducati 1098 as well and they were renowned for their chocolate boxes. Mainly because the track brigade immediately started slapping QS's on and then there was a rash of very nasty gearbox failures. The standard shift on the 1098 is that slick that I often think that the bike hasn't gone up or down the box because there is virtually no resistance at the lever.

I'm just not a fan it goes against my natural mechanical sympathies, Oh and did I mention I'm old very old and feeling it

John

Offline kingoffleece

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Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2019, 11:16:56 AM »
I get confused by the Dynojet comments.  I've been involved with dozens of installs and have seen zero problems.
In 2008 I put a PCIII in my 2008 Rocket 3.  Sold it at 14,000 miles and the guy that bought it has over 50,000 trouble free miles on it now.

We put Power Commanders into Daytona sport bikes like crazy thru a local partner who would map the bikes.  These owners would go all over the east coast and thrash the bikes at the track.  Never one failure due to the PC.  What am I missing?

The same partner would map dozens of motocross bikes (we have a nice track nearby and these folks go all over with 125's, 250's, and a few bigger bikes).  His door was nonstop with customers. I'd speculate the results must have been satisfactory for those folks or they wouldn't have been going back.
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oldbike54

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Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2019, 11:27:54 AM »
I get confused by the Dynojet comments.  I've been involved with dozens of installs and have seen zero problems.
In 2008 I put a PCIII in my 2008 Rocket 3.  Sold it at 14,000 miles and the guy that bought it has over 50,000 trouble free miles on it now.

We put Power Commanders into Daytona sport bikes like crazy thru a local partner who would map the bikes.  These owners would go all over the east coast and thrash the bikes at the track.  Never one failure due to the PC.  What am I missing?

The same partner would map dozens of motocross bikes (we have a nice track nearby and these folks go all over with 125's, 250's, and a few bigger bikes).  His door was nonstop with customers. I'd speculate the results must have been satisfactory for those folks or they wouldn't have been going back.

 Here is the issue , a Beetle map actually fixes what might be wrong with the factory map , a Power Commander only masks any problems . Sure , they can help , in some cases , but they can also lead to over fueling . Thousands of motorbikes are running sans mufflers , so just because something is in widely accepted doesn't mean it actually improves performance .

 Dusty

pete roper

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Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2019, 11:49:38 AM »
Since this is my 1st Guzzi, I was not aware that the clutch weighs 22lbs, so are you saying that because of the centrifugal force of the spinning clutch that a device that cuts the fuel or spark will not "unload " the transmission enough to do clutchless up shifting?
And when you say preload the lever, are you talking about speedshifting?

For upshifting there is absolutely no need for a quick shifter. Once you are out of first simply preload the lever and twitch the throttle. Going down there is simply too much mass in the driveline to safely and reliably be able to crash it through. It will also achieve you nothing discernible in terms of shift rapidity. The Cali 14's have a face cam shock absorber on the input shaft and the box shifts pretty well but any machine with a heel/toe shifter and multiple linkages will always have more slack in the mechanism than a direct lever mechanism.

As to the PC issue? The problems with PC's with later MM systems have been covered many times before, it's not worth endlessly repeating them. Those who want to believe in Magic boxes will continue to believe and those that know better don't.

One thing I would like to know is where the PC gets its throttle input and power from? The demand sensor is a four-way TPS effectively and if one of the signals goes out of range it will trigger a 'Service' warning. Since aPC loads down the TPS something fierce on earlier non RBW systems I can't see how taking a signal from the demand sensor wouldn't do the same? Just a casual interest as I'd rather stick pins in my privates than low one near any bike of mine.

Pete

Offline kingoffleece

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Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2019, 12:05:12 PM »
Trying to learn here.  Not poke needles in my privates.
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Offline Roebling3

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Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2019, 12:27:21 PM »
My favorite gear boxes seem to be in Suzuki's, Honda's, Aprilia's and Mack truck's. An acquaintance, seriously abusive to machines, up shifted on 'valve float' and later on bikes w/ rev limiters, in what he called 'bumping the pin'. To each his own.
My V7 III will shift, noiseless and lurch-less, up or down gear, if the road speed is above 40 m/h. (it does howl in every gear). I've had too many Yamahas, Suzukis and Hondas to list here; none needed a clutch  to shift, once they were rolling. (same for Mack trucks). I drank enough Kool Aide to own 7 bmw's.  2 shifted well. The first Guzzi I rode was an LM I at the old Loudon, NH track. A sweet shifting bike!  Who knew? Just don't ask me to ride w/floor boards.  R3~ 

oldbike54

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Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2019, 01:09:45 PM »
Trying to learn here.  Not poke needles in my privates.

 Ouch  :laugh:

 We are all trying to learn , hopefully  :thumb:

 Dusty

Offline kingoffleece

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Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
« Reply #15 on: April 02, 2019, 03:06:40 PM »
Agreed.  And, I';m not drinking anybody's Kool Aid.
I understand Empirical experience is not definitive nor is my sample size representative of n the entire whole.  Nonetheless, it is what it is.  I've seen plenty of air/fuel charts after PC modification that would lead one to believe the A/F readings were good across the board as cell were adjusted.
A PC may be a band aid, I understand that.  But if the A/F reading are good bottom to top I have a few questions.

First, is that not a valid representation of neither over or under fueling?  If so, how?  That's a serious question, not some rhetorical statement meant to start an argument.

Second, I have zero experience with the PC on a Guzzi.  Is there something in the ECU that makes it's use something just short of a national disaster?

I GET that a proper map is best.  I have two bikes like that now.  But if the A/F mixture is proper what's the issue with how it got there?  Again, serious question.

And how shall I process the fact that dozens of track day junkies in my neck of the woods are more than satisfied with the performance of their track day bikes?  Again, serious question?

I'm old enough to be "learned" without my feelings being hurt.  I have no dog in the fight-I simply need more information, and prefer it being presented in an adult manor-sort of like if we were having a nice campfire, bourbon, and cigar at a rally, if you please.
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Offline Roebling3

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Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
« Reply #16 on: April 02, 2019, 04:57:28 PM »
For some, and sometimes many, what ever the verbal hot ticket to power - alleged or real - - If it was their choice and their $$$ it works great. dyno read-outs, especially those printed, are at least worth the paper on which they are printed. On a race track it's rider skill; most often late braking and an early out.  R3~

twowings

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Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2019, 06:21:15 PM »
Power Commander = BandAid

Take it to the nearest river bridge in the dead of night, place in a burlap sack, and drown it...

Offline kingoffleece

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Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
« Reply #18 on: April 02, 2019, 06:30:44 PM »
That doesn't really help now, does it?
Yes, graphs can show many different things-what about the A/F mixtures?

You guys talk like it's the antichrist but the empirical results say otherwise.  Many of these guys know how to ride and competed at a professional level.
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Offline kingoffleece

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Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
« Reply #19 on: April 02, 2019, 06:32:28 PM »
Not to mention that we have a world class snowmobile racing shop here and they use PC's on all their  race sleds and drag sleds.
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twowings

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Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
« Reply #20 on: April 02, 2019, 06:34:32 PM »
Racing <> real, world drivability, economy, and tractibility - two different worlds...

Offline kingoffleece

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Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
« Reply #21 on: April 02, 2019, 06:35:42 PM »
"Take it to the rive and drown it..."

I should have know better.  Thank you.
Sorry I asked.  No need for further replies.  I'll find additional information on my own.
Carry on.
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Offline jacksonracingcomau

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Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
« Reply #22 on: April 02, 2019, 08:40:41 PM »
back ot
Pete touched on it
quickshifter is now a riding aid
like abs, tc, easy running from cold, digital gear position etc etc etc
not about need for most it is a perceived gain
read the v85 tt reviews “ needs a quickshifter”
penny to a pound v85 le mans gets one
one day the things will change gear for you
and brake before you hit something
keep you in lane
etc etc
hello autonomous vehicles we’re not far away
« Last Edit: April 02, 2019, 08:58:31 PM by jacksonracingcomau »

Online bad Chad

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Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
« Reply #23 on: April 02, 2019, 09:20:24 PM »
I’ll say this. The PCll I think it was, made my 99 Bass’s run much better than it did, and I’m talking drivability!  It was what I thought pretty good, until I took it to a Guzzi shop that pulled it completely out, and yet it was made to run far better than any time before.
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Online Bulldog9

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Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
« Reply #24 on: April 02, 2019, 09:24:19 PM »
Augostinis yes... The rest of it you'd be well advised as others have said above to save your money get a beetle map skip that quickshifter crap and enjoy your Moto Guzzi.

Just saved you about $2,000, and if you download Guzzi diag, and buy the cables, you will put an outstanding tool in your hands to tune, adjust, and monitor the health of your motorcycle motor.

I'm by no means an expert in Moto Guzzi, but my experience so far other than my V7ii is that the flywheel and rotating mass of the driveline does not lend itself to speed shifting quick-clutchless shifting Etc. You're not buying a race bike you're buying a power cruiser at best. Keeping your stock intake and filter, a properly tuned Map (Beetle) for your exhaust, skip the power Commander add-on crap and open air intake.

« Last Edit: April 02, 2019, 09:25:37 PM by Bulldog9 »
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Offline 1BADMGX

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Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
« Reply #25 on: April 02, 2019, 11:12:11 PM »
Ok guys, I want to say thank you for all your views & advice both publicly & privately.

I realize that there are many ways & mods one can do to a motorcycle to end up with similar results.

The reason why Im going with the PCV, auto tuner & reflashed ECU is that I have some experience with them on my Ducati Hypermotard & KTM 1290R Superduke, and there's a local Guzzi tuner near me that puts them on the Guzzies even though the Dynojet website has no listings. The PCVs has worked really well for me with great dyno result.

Now if some of you have never tried a quick shifter, maybe you should, for me its really fun to pin the throttle and just bang at the shift lever (upshift)  & get perfect shifts.
With a quick shifter installed you can still shift the bike like normally using the clutch.

Some of you have suggested to preload the shift lever before using the clutch which I would not recommend doing, as this would put a lot of pressure on the transmission shifting forks, and can bend & damage them.

Since this is my first Guzzi I've ridden, I wanted to say that the 1400 motor transmission shifts really well with short positive shifts. (Compared to a Harley)

I also know that the Mgx is not a race bike,  but if I can make the bike accelerate better with less chance of missing a gear I definitely would. Like I said it's also a lot of fun.

The question I was asking is if anybody here has installed a quick shifter on a Guzzi, or is not possible because of the design/weight of the clutch?
Thanks again Alex.

oldbike54

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Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
« Reply #26 on: April 02, 2019, 11:19:59 PM »
 I've been preloading the shifter for 40 years , haven't ever bent a shifting fork .

 As for the other stuff , do what you want , but Pete likely knows more about 1400 Moto Guzzi tuning than anyone , and Beetle has a lot of satisfied customers . Spends your money , takes your chances , I just don't care for add on stuff when there is a simpler solution .

 Dusty

Offline 1BADMGX

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Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
« Reply #27 on: April 03, 2019, 12:33:02 AM »
I've been preloading the shifter for 40 years , haven't ever bent a shifting fork .

 As for the other stuff , do what you want , but Pete likely knows more about 1400 Moto Guzzi tuning than anyone , and Beetle has a lot of satisfied customers . Spends your money , takes your chances , I just don't care for add on stuff when there is a simpler solution .

 Dusty

Thanks Dusty for all your help, along with the other members, I wanted to let you know that I take everything you guys say into consideration. That's why I joined this forum.


I have no doubt that the Beetle map is a good thing, as long as the mods are similar from bike to bike. The auto tuner to adjust the PCV  is supposedly able to make fueling adjustments no matter what changes are made  to the bike, such as pipes, open air boxes, cams, high compression pistons, riding in the hot low desert or the cold high mountains. It will compensate & adjust the fueling so that the bike runs good all the time. (Supposedly)

Im also glad that you've never had a transmission issue.
But from what I know, by preloading the shifter you're forcing the shifting fork to push on the gear to move/slide it, and when the transmission is in gear & under load it will not move, untill the clutch is used. That is when you can damage or wear the shifting forks.

I apologize if I might be misunderstanding your description of preloading the shifter.

pete roper

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Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
« Reply #28 on: April 03, 2019, 12:33:40 AM »
Not suggesting you preload the lever before using the clutch, simply preloading it and then twitch the throttle off and on, it'll shift quick enough. No the side pressure won't damage the forks.

The 'Nuovo six speed' is a nice box. Upshifting clutchless is really not a problem, it just requires a twitch of the wrist rather than relying on a solenoid to perform the same task.

Pete

Offline Smithy

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Re: Quick shifter on a Guzzi
« Reply #29 on: April 03, 2019, 05:34:44 AM »
Quickshifters rule, Items that are a must on any new bike..heated grips, cruise control and after riding a new GS BMW and Aprilia Tuono a quickshifter.

Just do it man..
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