Break in

[John A]

I fear I may start a break in thread but check out this video  https://youtu.be/xpoglovyy_8

[kingoffleece]

I saw that when he first did it.  Interesting.

[chuck peterson]

Aren't water cooled motors built to tighter tolerances to begin with?....he said, poking the bear...

[John A]

then he started kicking the bear, saying that his opinion was that as long as you don't over heat the durn thing,  you can do about anything without harm.

[Ncdan]

Well, there you go:)

[tommy2cyl]

http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

It seems like there should be some consensus on this topic from a scientific, fact driven point of view.  Both the above reference and this one I am enclosing seem to make logical sense based upon the tenants of better metalurgy and closer tolerances of todays engines.  Is engine  break in really just a hold over from days gone by?   You would think the designers and builders of the bike surely know what is best and have set forth appropriate guidelines to get the most out of the engine.  I have always heard that you should use dinosaur oil for the first 1000 miles or so before switching to synthetic or a synthetic blend.  From my years of road racing formula cars, whenever we put in a new motor after being dyno tested, it was redline ready.  I would love for the really smart guys to give their input because I have a V 85 coming and want to do what is best.  We have guys on here that understand cold fusion apparently, so this should be a walk in the park for them.  I still don't really understand how television works so I defer to the smart guys.

[PhilB]

Modern manufacturing technology, tolerances, and materials have made a careful break-in *far* less important than it once was.  Probably anything made in the last 30 years it doesn't matter very much.  Also, few people put enough miles on a bike, or keep it long enough, for any problems that could be due to failure to break it in properly to show up.

That said, for me, I still will always do a proper and careful break-in, because I think it helps with ultimate longevity.  I rarely let go of a bike I like before 80K miles, and my best was 265K miles on a Ducati Monster.  The Monster never needed an engine rebuild; I did put new piston rings in it at 122K (and did a proper break-in with the new rings), and was about to do that again at 265K.  But we got smacked by a car first; otherwise I'd still be riding it, and pushing 300K by now.  Likewise, my cars typically see 150K to 200K or more, so I break those in right as well.  Right now, I'm driving a 2002 Mini Cooper S with 210K on it, and it runs just fine.

So I agree with him for 99% of bikes and bikers, but for me, I'll still be careful about it.

PhilB

[John A]

Yep What Phil said.  I'm still going to do it the way I do it, cuz I've had good results. I've seen the results of a bad ring seal,  not going to chance it- engines are not created equal.

[Kev m]

I'm never one for extremes on this subject. But I've been preaching for some time that break-in in this industry is more about other things than ring seal and engine life/performance.

So I've always taken a middle road. No need to beat it up, no need to candy ass it.

Ymmv, do what makes your warm and fuzzy, but here's more evidence it's much ado...

[tommy2cyl]

Thanks for the feedback guys.  Phil, I have a 2006 Mini S with 149,XXX and runs fine.  Original clutch.  Don't want to hijack the thread, but curious if you did the suggested 100,000 mile service that removed the supercharger to replace the oil in the little resevoir?  Thank you in advance for your reply.

[PhilB]

Thanks for the feedback guys.  Phil, I have a 2006 Mini S with 149,XXX and runs fine.  Original clutch.  Don't want to hijack the thread, but curious if you did the suggested 100,000 mile service that removed the supercharger to replace the oil in the little resevoir?  Thank you in advance for your reply.

Ours needed a new clutch at about 60K, which was quite soon after we bought it, but I think that's just because the first two owners didn't know how to drive a stick well.  The replacement has now been there for 150K, and is doing fine.

We did not do the 100K bit; at the time we were not aware of it.  It's doing fine, though.  Maybe I should do that someday.  ;)

PhilB

[rschrum]

There was a, wheeler dealer, episode where they did the 100k service on a mini turbo.

[Lannis]

Yep What Phil said.  I'm still going to do it the way I do it, cuz I've had good results. I've seen the results of a bad ring seal,  not going to chance it- engines are not created equal.

There's nothing in the world wrong with doing that, going with "dance with who brung ya".

In answer to "what's the scientific consensus", though, I ask myself "Who are the real experts on the break-in process for a particular kind of engine?"

It's bound to different for a small Chinese scooter, a 300 HP Mercury outboard, a Ford Fusion, a Triumph Rocket III, and a big Cummins diesel.   So how do we know what to do?   Who originally did the metallurgy, the testing, who knows what the piston clearances are, the heat/cool cycle characteristics?

Why, the guys who designed and manufactured the engine, I'd say.   And they wrote down the process and put it in the Owner's Manual for the edification of us all.   That's where I'd go to find out what the break-in process is for my motor ... ?    That's got to be the best place to find out what to do with a new engine.

It would also be the starting point if you were rebuilding an engine with OEM parts.   

Now, if you're boring out an engine and using different pistons and changing the fueling and all that, for a race engine or whatever, then YOU'RE the guy who knows!

Lannis

[DaSwami]

Now that is indeed very interesting..kind of lines up with auto manufacturers that claim a special break-in is not needed anymore

[Kev m]

OMG Lannis, there's a point where you have to realistically look past the OM and realize there's a pattern that doesn't agree with the rest of reality.

The MC market holds onto the break-in BS for the reasons presented in the video:

* Drive business back to dealer
* Liability, if something is gonna go wrong, that's the time.
* User error, these things are more complicated than a car, if something's gonna go wrong with the operater, that's a high risk time.

I suspect much of this applies to the marine industry too, another one that clings to this break-in BS. But at least those motors are different in that they tend to be run at WOT or at least a heavier load more often.

[wirespokes]

I don't know how it was with Moto Guzzi when the nikasil plating process was developed, or what was recommended for chrome bores, but BMW had a lot of trouble with the early nikasil bikes in the early 80s. Rings were't sealing, and after 20K and still blowing oil, they'd replace the rings. That happened a lot.

What handled it was breaking in the rings under load. I wouldn't run it up to red line, but five grand would work. The idea is more to load the engine and that's what forces the rings against the cylinder wall. Assembling the pistons with only a drop of oil on each skirt assures the rings won't be lubricated at the very start, so most of the break-in happens then. Going for a 30 mile ride working it up hills and down, accelerating and decelerating finishes the break in.

You did notice in the video he mentioned the only difference between the two engines was the ring gap? Running at red line does that. I wonder how much wider the gap was?

I tend to go easy on my vehicles, but will continue to break-in the air cooled piston rings like I just described.

[Huzo]

Can someone (who knows), tell me why accelerating and decelerating is sometimes deemed to be important in “break in” procedure ?
The piston is, after all reciprocating so changes in RPM will only alter the number of strokes per second.
And
Do the rings “know” whether the engine is driving or coasting ?
Are the rings slammed against the bore harder or gentler depending on cylinder pressure (load) ?

[Old Jock]

Only thing I can think of Huzo is that when accelerating you have wider throttle openings, so more mixture into the cylinder = bigger bang = more pressure.

That might force the rings harder down and into the cylinder walls.

Decelleration the opposite, so your exercising or cycling engine loading

IMHO there are too many variables and outcomes to consider, are you looking purely at rings, or do you care about bearings, or whatever else.

Then you have to consider differing engine designs, configurations and capacity.

I break in engines gently but that's not to say it's correct, it's is purely what my mechanical gut instinct tells me is best

[Huzo]

Only thing I can think of Huzo is that when accelerating you have wider throttle openings, so more mixture into the cylinder = bigger bang = more pressure.

That might force the rings harder down and into the cylinder walls.

Decelleration the opposite, so your exercising or cycling engine loading

IMHO there are too many variables and outcomes to consider, are you looking purely at rings, or do you care about bearings, or whatever else.

Then you have to consider differing engine designs, configurations and capacity.

I break in engines gently but that's not to say it's correct, it's is purely what my mechanical gut instinct tells me is best

Hmmm...Yes John.
I’ll be starting on a new one soon and as always, I’ll treat it on the first ride as I intend to treat it on the last..
It’s worked out ok with my Norge.

[wirespokes]

The way it was described to me, Huzo, was that the rings aren't a complete seal. Compressed gasses get behind the rings and force them outwards into the cylinder walls. Varying engine speed and especially climbing hills increases that pressure considerably.

[Lannis]

OMG Lannis, there's a point where you have to realistically look past the OM and realize there's a pattern that doesn't agree with the rest of reality.

The MC market holds onto the break-in BS for the reasons presented in the video:

* Drive business back to dealer
* Liability, if something is gonna go wrong, that's the time.
* User error, these things are more complicated than a car, if something's gonna go wrong with the operater, that's a high risk time.

I suspect much of this applies to the marine industry too, another one that clings to this break-in BS. But at least those motors are different in that they tend to be run at WOT or at least a heavier load more often.

I think there's something to what you say, because we see the same thing on issues where the lawyers have gotten hold of the service manual, which resulted in things like the Centauro manual insisting that you replace the entire driveshaft assembly (a $600 proposition) every 18,000 miles, which is patent nonsense and which many miles of Centauro ownership proved to be silly.

But when you say "don't line up with reality", the OTHER thing that doesn't line up with reality is the responses to "what's the scientific reason behind this?"   And the answers seem to be:

1) I don't think you should have to do it.

2) I've always heard XXXX so that's the way I do it.

3) I've always liked doing it this way, so that's the way I'm going to keep doing it.

4) I do it this way and my bikes have never smoked or blown up, so it must be OK.

In other words, the same responses you would get to "Why not use the recommended oil in your bike?"   There seems to be a strange parallel between the responses, consisting of personal preference, urban legend, a desire to be different, and what makes you "feel" better about it .... along with reasons why the manufacturers are motived to blow smoke up our collective arses, which they may be doing in some cases.

Lannis

[tommy2cyl]

Curious if anyone read the link I provided and have any response to his experience with over 300 engines tested, the difference in street, dyno, racetrack break in, his claim that mineral oil should be used first and should be drained after first 20 miles, synthetic should be drained and replaced with regular oil even if it comes from the manufacturer with synthetic,  that the most critical engine break in occurs within the first 20 minutes, etc.  The author seems to have  a substantial amount of experience and lays out his position very specifically.  If we have an actual engine builder in the group who would respond to the above points I would find that enlightening.  I do agree that each engine has it's own characteristics and the author does not really test us what those 300 engines are, but beyond that, what does an actual engine builder think of the "facts" in the article?

[LowRyter]

So I bought a bike with 1300 miles on it.  I really didn't want to mess with break period, recalls, and certainly depreciation.  When I bought it, I was a little disappointed with the power.  It just didn't seem to rev as quickly as I expected.  It uses a little bit of oil, like 1 quart at 3500-4k miles. 

Now that I have 7k miles on it, I've noticed that engine has really loosened up and revs freely and the fuel mileage has gotten noticeably better too.  So the question is, will the oil consumption improve? 

BTW- I've never run a bike without changing the oil for more than 3k miles, so this new stuff for me with full synthetic oil and computerized maintenance notification.

[Kev m]

I think it comes down to this (and Lannis this addresses your counterpoint).

It's pretty much (more than likely) safe to follow manufacturer's recommendations.

It's sometimes (maybe even more often than not) fine to deviate from them too, but do so at your own peril. Try to figure out the reasons for them in the first place if you are going to deviate. Try to rely on logic and relevant experience if you do. Just remember that the further you go from them the more likely you might run into trouble.

Fair enough?

[Ncdan]

I like the concept that weather or not a factory recommended Break in  is necessary or not, that time taken to ride  conservatively on a new bike 🚲 s well advised. As far as the bikes well being I don’t think it matters that much in the long run. However is some  catastrophic does occur during the warranty era I can honestly say I did everything per their recommendation.