Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.

[molly]

I wonder how many owners are out there are blissfully unaware of this problem. Let's face it not everyone bothers with forums and Guzzi and it's dealers (present company excepted)) are certainly not advertising the fact. There also must be a few potential buyers going into dealers or on ebay this weekend looking for a used 8v Guzzi. The sellers will have their poker faces on and both fingers crossed behind their backs in anticipation of a sale and so the merry-go-round will turn for a while longer. 
I have not seen a bike advertised that states a roller conversion has been done with all relevant paperwork  etc. etc. yet.

[Steph]

I wonder how many owners are out there are blissfully unaware of this problem. Let's face it not everyone bothers with forums and Guzzi and it's dealers (present company excepted)) are certainly not advertising the fact. There also must be a few potential buyers going into dealers or on ebay this weekend looking for a used 8v Guzzi. The sellers will have their poker faces on and both fingers crossed behind their backs in anticipation of a sale and so the merry-go-round will turn for a while longer. 
I have not seen a bike advertised that states a roller conversion has been done with all relevant paperwork  etc. etc. yet.

Yes, it's pretty bad. I remember talking to a guzzi dealer last year about it. It was a very tough/stressful situation for them.
It's one thing for the owner to accept the roller conversion but it's another to realize that microscopic crap is floating inside the engine of their pride and joy.
Seems like UK 8V customers had been vocal about this for years. Always wondered, did this have anything to do the closure of the UK guzzi forum? I went back to look for the cam thread and the forum seem to have disappeared! Did piaggio buy out the  forum owner? Lol!

[molly]

I'm not sure why the GB owners club pulled their forum section that related to owners problems. I do know they got paranoid at one time about Piaggio UK because my threads on Guzzidiag mapping were pulled on the basis the moderator thought I was somehow in conflict with Piaggio's products. Mind you most of the members hadn't got their heads round the 1200 2v motor never mind a 8v.

[Rough Edge racing]

Gee don't blame the oil! Millions of flat tappet engines worldwide, old and new, continue to function every day. Many are brand new.

 Not exactly..... the big mess that happened about 15 years ago when ZDDP oil levels were lowered in US market oil . It didn't affect the pedestrian engines like the 4.0 Jeeps and Chevy V8 trucks built before 96....But it was a huge issue with high performance push rod flat tappet engines.

[LowRyter]

Ya know, that's kinda funny now that you mention it.

Looking at this strictly from a financial standpoint, what's the difference between this and a Ducati?

I mean we just paid $1200ish to service Jenn's bike and didn't blink an eye.

What is the difference?   About 50 hp.

[ITSec]

I have not seen a bike advertised that states a roller conversion has been done with all relevant paperwork  etc. etc. yet.

Maybe it's because the people who've had it done are happy keeping their now-refreshed bikes? We can hope... 

[ohiorider]

]
Had the same issues with my griso suspension until recently when I took the time to set it up properly. It had way to much preload front and rear so I backed them off and set the dampening s right by the manual standard settings,they were way off as well, unbelievable difference. The roads here are terrible and I suffered way to long for lack of checking it out properly. The p.o. actually had the compression and rebound settings backwards. Also he was a lot heavier and must have cranked the preload front and rear. Have you tried adjusting yours at all?

I used the factory settings for a while .... then took the bike to a shop where an excellent ex-Guzzi tech and overall good technician works.  We set proper sag, and worked thru various graduated compression and rebound settings until it was much improved over what it was before.  However, my favorite roads, though they don't require an ADV bike, still beat me up on the Griso.  So when I want to take my favorites, I ride either the 1200 Sport or the old GS.  When I'm out on the Griso, I plan my ride by the condition of the road surface.

[Demar]

I couldn't stand not knowing for sure. 2012 NTX purchased in October 2012.

[MotoG5]

I couldn't stand not knowing for sure. 2012 NTX purchased in October 2012

You are a very lucky person. Rollers. I bought mine at the same time and its flats. 

[canuguzzi]

I wonder how many owners are out there are blissfully unaware of this problem. Let's face it not everyone bothers with forums and Guzzi and it's dealers (present company excepted)) are certainly not advertising the fact. There also must be a few potential buyers going into dealers or on ebay this weekend looking for a used 8v Guzzi. The sellers will have their poker faces on and both fingers crossed behind their backs in anticipation of a sale and so the merry-go-round will turn for a while longer. 
I have not seen a bike advertised that states a roller conversion has been done with all relevant paperwork  etc. etc. yet.

More likely this is the beginning and as time goes by you'll hear more about this, from unsuspecting buyers of the flat tappet bikes.

This might not be a real big deal for some, hey, what is a thousand bucks anyway, but for those buying one only to find out they didn't get such a good deal, it will be a big deal. Its shortsighted to look at this as just another expense, it harms the brand and it doesn't matter if you have a flat tappet MG or not, the shadow casts long and wide. That your bike might have rollers doesn't matter too much, its a MG and if enough flat tappet bikes end up eating engines, it affects us all.

[Demar]

You are a very lucky person. Rollers. I bought mine at the same time and its flats.

 :1:

MG should cover the cost of parts and labor for all 8V roller upgrades. They should at least cover the parts cost as they designed it and they built it. I wonder if it's a material property issue. Remember the recall for the suspension link? That was due to using components that were not properly heat treated.

[pehayes]

I'm not sure why the GB owners club pulled their forum section that related to owners problems. I do know they got paranoid at one time about Piaggio UK because my threads on Guzzidiag mapping were pulled on the basis the moderator thought I was somehow in conflict with Piaggio's products. Mind you most of the members hadn't got their heads round the 1200 2v motor never mind a 8v.

I am a member of the GB club.  The current issue of their magazine, Gambalunga, has a two page spread regarding the lawsuit about premature cam and flat tappet wear on Stelvio.  It is an interesting read.  Most notable is that Piaggio claim they do not "sell" motorcycles but only "promote" sales via a dealer network.  Dealer goes out of business and that's your problem.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[Demar]

Most notable is that Piaggio claim they do not "sell" motorcycles but only "promote" sales via a dealer network.  Dealer goes out of business and that's your problem.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

This could be the short answer to Curtis Harper's thread "Why are there so few Guzzi Dealers?"

[molly]

I get a monthly copy of the trade paper U.K. Motorcycle Dealer News. They do quarterly polls on dealer satisfaction over  a number of categories. Piaggio regularly come bottom or near bottom in most areas. So your dealer maybe excellent but their working relationship with the importer could be holding them back, plus it doesn't encourage new dealerships.

[WitchCityGuzzi]

What is the difference?   About 50 hp.

The difference is that that's a one time cost on the 8v's. It's a continual outlay for service for a Duc.

[Kev m]

The difference is that that's a one time cost on the 8v's. It's a continual outlay for service for a Duc.

Not to muddy the waters too much further, but that's only partially true.

Just a valve and belt service on the Duc should be more like $600 max. And after the first two at 7500 and 15000 miles the interval these days is often 15,000 per.

Meanwhile you still have to check valves on an 8V and if we're comparing factory service costs didn't someone here quote $400-500 for the Guzzi? Let's take $400 vs $600? That means you're only closing the gap by $200 each valve service. If you spend $1200 on the roller upgrade (I'm being conservative to be fair) that's 6 valve and belt services on the Duc.

So you'll have to get to at least 45k+ miles (if you stick with 7500 intervals) or 75k miles (if you change to 15k intervals after the second adjustment) by the time the costs even out.

THEN YES, in theory it's paid for on the 8V and remains a cost on the Duc. Except that you're only piling up $200 more expense every 15k so by 105k miles you've potentially only spent $400 more for that 50 hp.

So one answer is $400 and 50 hp more.

NOTHING is free and you have to pay to play.

So pick your poison.

I do agree with those saying that MG is going to get another black eye from this.

Edit PS, I REALLY love Guzzi and prefer almost all their bikes over a Duc (of which there are literally very few that appeal to me, maybe just the Scramblers these days). So I'm surprised I'm making this financial argument. But at the same time I'm having a problem with Guzzi and these failures that just shouldn't happen (hydro's, dashes, tappets). Maybe part of the problem is such a low volume amplifies the significance of these stumbles.

[Vasco DG]

I am a member of the GB club.  The current issue of their magazine, Gambalunga, has a two page spread regarding the lawsuit about premature cam and flat tappet wear on Stelvio.  It is an interesting read.  Most notable is that Piaggio claim they do not "sell" motorcycles but only "promote" sales via a dealer network.  Dealer goes out of business and that's your problem.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

This is what drives me bonkers. Regardless of the fact that they stuffed up the original design of the top end the way the engine delivers is, for some of us, bloody fantastic!

The problem no appears to have been fixed, we can continue to enjoy the bikes, but those, (Including myself?) seem to be being treated extremely shabbily.

So what to do? I don't know? I don't see a way to solve the problem unless Piaggio are forced to admit they are at fault. If they becomes too expensive they'll just Shit-Can Guzzi.

Most of all though I would ask people not to go into their dealers bellowing and cursing because a.) it's insulting to them and b.) it's not their fault!

I think the whole thing is awful but one has to be pragmatic. Slowly, slowly, catchee, monkey.

[WitchCityGuzzi]

Not to muddy the waters too much further, but that's only partially true.

Just a valve and belt service on the Duc should be more like $600 max. And after the first two at 7500 and 15000 miles the interval these days is often 15,000 per.

Meanwhile you still have to check valves on an 8V and if we're comparing factory service costs didn't someone here quote $400-500 for the Guzzi? Let's take $400 vs $600? That means you're only closing the gap by $200 each valve service. If you spend $1200 on the roller upgrade (I'm being conservative to be fair) that's 6 valve and belt services on the Duc.

So you'll have to get to at least 45k+ miles (if you stick with 7500 intervals) or 75k miles (if you change to 15k intervals after the second adjustment) by the time the costs even out.

THEN YES, in theory it's paid for on the 8V and remains a cost on the Duc. Except that you're only piling up $200 more expense every 15k so by 105k miles you've potentially only spent $400 more for that 50 hp.

So one answer is $400 and 50 hp more.

NOTHING is free and you have to pay to play.

So pick your poison.

I do agree with those saying that MG is going to get another black eye from this.

Edit PS, I REALLY love Guzzi and prefer almost all their bikes over a Duc (of which there are literally very few that appeal to me, maybe just the Scramblers these days). So I'm surprised I'm making this financial argument. But at the same time I'm having a problem with Guzzi and these failures that just shouldn't happen (hydro's, dashes, tappets). Maybe part of the problem is such a low volume amplifies the significance of these stumbles.

I hear ya. I of course made the (perhaps the false) assumption that pretty much all Guzzi riders did the bulk of their own servicing. Whereas I don't know any Ducati riders that really do much of their own service. They do have longer intervals though. Do the older air cooled Duc's have the same intervals, or are they similar to Guzzi for valve adjust? Curious as if the liquid cooled Duc's extend the interval.

FWIW, my roller upgrade cost me about 600 bucks per bike as Guzzi provided the parts gratis. On both bikes (Stelvio and Griso). I do all my own servicing and for me, the 1200 bucks for both bikes will most likely be a one time thing.

Doug

[Kev m]

I'm trying to compare apples to apples, but yeah you could play with the numbers either way depending on how you approach service.

I finda decent number of Duc enthusiasts (at least with the Monsters, and mostly the 2V/air cooled ones) service their own valves. If I had to guess I'd say it's probably a smaller number than Guzzi owners just based on the more involved procedures. But I don't know that the differences in percentages are that big. That said, we see a fair number of Guzzi riders who don't adjust their own valves too (probably the lion's share, just not the lion's share we tend to hang out with).

On Duc valve adjustment intervals I am under the impression Ducati has been extending them with various models over the past decade. First to 7500, and later to 15,000 (the studies I used earlier). I can't say if the latter is more related to water-cooling per se, except that most of their models have become water-cooled around the same time frame. But you have me wondering.

I think, like many JAPanInc. products, that owners frequently extend the intervals further themselves without harm.

So, I think it all "just depends".

[steven c]

We'll so much for my dream of buying a used Griso ,though I'm sure now the prices will be coming down.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Do the older air cooled Duc's have the same intervals, or are they similar to Guzzi for valve adjust?

The desmo ducks generally settle in and after about 10-15K miles seem to pretty much stay put. The two valve ducks are easy. Four valves not so much. Can't get to some of em..
That said, adjusting valves for duck owners is a dealer's profit  center.  Takes maybe an hour to do a two valve, they charge for four, nobody complains. 

[rogershuff]

OK - I live in the UK, edit the Moto Guzzi Club GB magazine and know of this issue. I'm in the market to buy a used Norge . . . a couple of questions:

1) Can all the non-roller 8V engines be converted to rollers?

2) Any rough idea of the cost of the parts?

And FYI, a couple of GB club members are on their 3rd set of cam followers on their Stelvio. They recently took Piaggio Ltd (UK) to court to get the labour costs paid. They lost - Piaggio Ltd's defence was that they do not sell motorcycles and do not hold any stock of spares. They merely act as agent for Piaggio in Italy.

[rogershuff]

OK - I found the cost of the upgrade package but my first question stands - can they all be "rollerised"? Thanks.

[canuguzzi]

OK - I found the cost of the upgrade package but my first question stands - can they all be "rollerised"? Thanks.

Knowing all that, why by a flat tappet Norge?  Is it that you like the older model better or is the initial cost the factor?

[rogershuff]

Cost is important. Test rode a 2007 2-valve and then this 2011 4-valve - a better experience! 11,500 miles. Dealer swears by Motul 7100 oil and says 'Why worry?". I am still thinking. Maybe paying a bit more for a later one would make sense.

[Vasco DG]

It is perfectly possible to rollerise any 8V with flat tappets.

[rboe]

I'm utterly failing to find the How To to pull the tappet holder so I can inspect my tappets at the cam. Anybody got a link?

[lucian]

I'm utterly failing to find the How To to pull the tappet holder so I can inspect my tappets at the cam. Anybody got a link?

You have to pull the cam towers, I would have a roller kit handy first.


http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=78160.0

[rboe]

Thanks! Probably using the wrong terminology.
 

[rogershuff]

For my education - what is the difference between the A, B, C and D kits mentioned? And thanks, Pete, for he excellent breakdown on the other thread.