Author Topic: Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.  (Read 70740 times)

Online tazio

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Re: Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.
« Reply #180 on: September 22, 2015, 08:41:08 PM »
On Mark's bike and all, as far as I can remember, others I've done it was the exhausts rather than the inlets that let go first. As far as additives are concerned ZDDP may in fact be counter productive with DLC.

Yup, it's a PITA but that's the thing about using the scientific method of analysis, you always have to strive to prove yourself wrong and allow your findings to be peer reviewed.

Pete

Pete, still trying to digest information and prolong what looks to be the inevitable (rollers).
Ready for my first oil change / valve check and remember your statement earlier about ZDDP catching my attention.
Can you expound on your take on this?
 I think that my limited searching on the subject mentions Hydrogen-Free DLC Coating at issue with ZDDP.
Has the 8v Flat tappet a Hydrogen-Free DLC Coating?

Thank you for your service to this board and it's members.

michael
 
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Offline bib

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Re: Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.
« Reply #181 on: September 22, 2015, 10:04:00 PM »
ARRRGH!

NO, YOU DO NOT HAVE TO WORRY! DONT GET YOUR PANTIES IN A WAD! YOUR BIKE IS A SMALLBLOCK AND NOTHING RELATED TO THIS ISSUE HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH YOUR BIKE!

What is the word that rhymes with 'Duck'?

Pete
I really needed a giggle today ....  :popcorn: Any other non 8v big block Guzzi owners wanting a second opinion??? Any???

Offline tris

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Re: Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.
« Reply #182 on: September 23, 2015, 02:10:43 AM »
It is perfectly possible to rollerise any 8V with flat tappets.

If the DLC on a flat tappet bike has started to fail / has failed prior to rollerisation (new word??) is the DLC floating about in the oil a problem or does it just get filtered out by the oil filter

I only ask as I'm in the market for a new bike and the budget puts me right in the problem years . So I wondering if I need look for a good 4V or chance the 8V with the knowledge that it can be fixed with a roller kit even if the DLC has already failed.

Cheers

PS am I right in assuming that come what may the DLC WILL fail at some pooint?
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Offline ITSec

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Re: Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.
« Reply #183 on: September 23, 2015, 12:09:47 PM »

PS am I right in assuming that come what may the DLC WILL fail at some point?


It's sort of like the two kinds of motorcycles - those that have gone down, and...
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Re: Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.
« Reply #183 on: September 23, 2015, 12:09:47 PM »

canuguzzi

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Re: Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.
« Reply #184 on: September 23, 2015, 01:32:06 PM »
If the DLC on a flat tappet bike has started to fail / has failed prior to rollerisation (new word??) is the DLC floating about in the oil a problem or does it just get filtered out by the oil filter

I only ask as I'm in the market for a new bike and the budget puts me right in the problem years . So I wondering if I need look for a good 4V or chance the 8V with the knowledge that it can be fixed with a roller kit even if the DLC has already failed.

Cheers

PS am I right in assuming that come what may the DLC WILL fail at some pooint?

If you look around you can probably find a roller bike for the ballpark price if the flat tappet one. That might change as time goes on and more buyers know to look for the update but until then, the price of a late 2012 on up should be not much greater if any than an early 2012/or 11.

There have been some mighty fine roller model bikes for sale and they were going for very reasonable prices.

Offline tris

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Re: Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.
« Reply #185 on: September 24, 2015, 01:29:23 AM »
It's sort of like the two kinds of motorcycles - those that have gone down, and...

OH GOOD :shocked:

Still I saw some new flat tappets on "a well know auction site" over here from a reputable dealer's online shop for replacement tappets at £95 each (free P&P which is nice  :bow:)

Am I right in saying that I'd need 8 of these for a complete change out which is circa £800 - or more than a roller kit would be?
« Last Edit: September 24, 2015, 01:30:01 AM by tris »
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Re: Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.
« Reply #186 on: September 24, 2015, 02:07:04 AM »
OH GOOD :shocked:

Still I saw some new flat tappets on "a well know auction site" over here from a reputable dealer's online shop for replacement tappets at �95 each (free P&P which is nice  :bow:)

Am I right in saying that I'd need 8 of these for a complete change out which is circa �800 - or more than a roller kit would be?

No. Look, it's not difficult. Replacing the flat tappets with another set of same won't fix the problem. If the bike has been poorly maintained or is from a damp, cool, climate the chances of failure are much greater/liable to occur earlier.

Any shop that would be willing to replace a set of failed tappets with new ones, (You need four, not eight.) especially if they didn't replace the cams, is obviously run by cretins.

The roller system has been in service now for nearly three years. Unlike the previous flat system there have been no widely reported failures, I haven't heard of a single one, so why would anybody but a person bordering on the pathologically moronic now decide it would be a good idea to throw good money after bad and tart up their failure prone flatty top end with a bunch of obsolete parts purchased by desperate, dishonest vendors on the Bay of Fleas!

Look, if you really want to tilt quixotically at this windmill of obstinate denial I have at least four, probably more, brand new flat tappets in my stock of spares. They cost me a not inconsiderable sum of money and some of their stablemates were used for destruction testing trying to get to the bottom of the problem. They're yours, (As long ad you promise not to put them on the Bay of Fleas!) for nothing. Just give whatever the postage costs to your oubliette of misery to Medicienes Sans Frontiers.

Just promise me one thing. If they do go udders skywards and trash your engine? Don't blame me. OK!

Pete

Offline tris

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Re: Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.
« Reply #187 on: September 24, 2015, 03:59:37 AM »
Cheers Pete

I wasn't thinking of buying them, more a comment that whoever did would waste a considerable amount of money that would be better spent on rollerising the bike

I don't have an 8v bike at the moment and I trying to make sure I don't saddle myself with a mountain of pain when I upgrade shortly.

Simplistically it appears that I either go for a 4v Breva/Norge or skip straight to an 8v built post 2012/13 - sheer performance isn't an issue to me

If I get anything in between it looks like I could have a bike that may or may not loose the DLC especially as I live in a cool damp climate  :wink:
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beetle

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Re: Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.
« Reply #188 on: September 24, 2015, 04:35:51 AM »
There is no cure for flattus tappetus shittis other than rollerus goodus fixxus. Throwing good flats in after bad ones resembles the Einstein cliche:

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Offline molly

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Re: Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.
« Reply #189 on: September 24, 2015, 04:45:48 AM »
At least Guzzi haven't been fiddling their emission tests, hopefully.
Dave

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Vasco DG

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Re: Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.
« Reply #190 on: September 24, 2015, 05:15:43 AM »
Cheers Pete

I wasn't thinking of buying them, more a comment that whoever did would waste a considerable amount of money that would be better spent on rollerising the bike

I don't have an 8v bike at the moment and I trying to make sure I don't saddle myself with a mountain of pain when I upgrade shortly.

Simplistically it appears that I either go for a 4v Breva/Norge or skip straight to an 8v built post 2012/13 - sheer performance isn't an issue to me

If I get anything in between it looks like I could have a bike that may or may not loose the DLC especially as I live in a cool damp climate  :wink:

No, I realised that. I just mourn the fact that since ten years ago this site has changed from being a place where people shared ideas and knowledge to being one where point scoring, an attitude of self righteousness and an absolute lack of humour has become the norm.

Trolling and a FUCKLOAD of ignorance is, unfortunately becoming the norm on WG, just look at the names that are missing! Nobody is forced to be here.

Offline tris

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Re: Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.
« Reply #191 on: September 24, 2015, 05:39:38 AM »
 :thumb:

The is one thing I'd appreciate your input on though.

If I find an early 8V and the seller says tappets are mullered but knocks a grand off the price to get it rollerised

Would that be a good/reasonable bike to take on or will the DLC that's lifted off and now sloshing about in the oil do damage elsewhere in the engine that effectively trashes the engine

Cheers
2017 V9 Roamer
2005 Breva 1100 (non ABS) "Bruno" - now sold
1995 Cali 1100 - carby   "Dino" -now sold
1993 TW125 "POS" - Resting

Vasco DG

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Re: Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.
« Reply #192 on: September 24, 2015, 05:47:46 AM »
Depends how far it's gone. How willing are you to take the risk?

Me? I'd look at a whole lot of things through a prism of experience and then listen carefully to what the vendor said. I'd buy a Flattie in a heartbeat if it had a good history but I'd also expect to rollerise it and build it into the price.

You seem to be asking me for some sort of concrete guarantee as to what is a good buy! How the hell would I know? I'm just some other jerk on the Internet!

Pete

Offline molly

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Re: Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.
« Reply #193 on: September 24, 2015, 05:56:45 AM »
:thumb:

The is one thing I'd appreciate your input on though.

If I find an early 8V and the seller says tappets are mullered but knocks a grand off the price to get it rollerised

Would that be a good/reasonable bike to take on or will the DLC that's lifted off and now sloshing about in the oil do damage elsewhere in the engine that effectively trashes the engine

Cheers

This is one of the sticking points for me buying a used flat tappet 8v. I can easily get the roller conversion done at Twiggers  Motorcycles but it is very difficult to know what state the motor is in when you buy it. Most dealers are in denial about the problem so they won't be much help and private sellers are hardly likely to have the cams exposed for inspection when you come to look at the bike. I have sadly come to the conclusion it is best to avoid a flat tappet bike altogether unless the price is that cheap it is worth the hassle.
Hopefully there will be enough roller bikes coming on the used market  and the people in the know will easily avoid buying a bad un.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2015, 05:57:58 AM by molly »
Dave

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Offline tris

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Re: Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.
« Reply #194 on: September 24, 2015, 06:01:00 AM »
Depends how far it's gone. How willing are you to take the risk?

Me? I'd look at a whole lot of things through a prism of experience and then listen carefully to what the vendor said. I'd buy a Flattie in a heartbeat if it had a good history but I'd also expect to rollerise it and build it into the price.

You seem to be asking me for some sort of concrete guarantee as to what is a good buy! How the hell would I know? I'm just some other jerk on the Internet!

Pete

But a well informed jerk IMO :bow: :bow:

However, you answered the question

You have the skill and knowledge to make the call whether to buy or not.

I don't!!

So I'll take the simple option and go for a 4V or later 8V

Thanks for the help   :thumb:
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2005 Breva 1100 (non ABS) "Bruno" - now sold
1995 Cali 1100 - carby   "Dino" -now sold
1993 TW125 "POS" - Resting

Vasco DG

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Re: Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.
« Reply #195 on: September 24, 2015, 06:09:36 AM »
Less of the  :bow: if you want to seriously give me the screaming shits? That's the way to do it.

Apart from that your decision seems eminently sensible. I can perfectly understand a layman's reluctance to want to roll the dice on a Flattie.

Pete

Offline tris

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Re: Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.
« Reply #196 on: September 24, 2015, 06:33:33 AM »
 :grin: :grin: :grin:
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1993 TW125 "POS" - Resting

Bill Hagan

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Re: Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.
« Reply #197 on: September 24, 2015, 08:01:27 AM »
There is no cure for flattus tappetus shittis other than rollerus goodus fixxus. Throwing good flats in after bad ones resembles the Einstein cliche:

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Ever since Miss (we had those back in the day) Crick, my 9th-grade Latin teacher sent me to the principal's office for passing a dirty note (in Latin, no less) to the cute little blonde in front of me, I get little spasms when I read even fractured versions.   :rolleyes:

I will not ride my beloved Griso and it is awaiting shipment in early November to Rose Farm Classics for the rollerus goodus fixxus. 

No, I realised that. I just mourn the fact that since ten years ago this site has changed from being a place where people shared ideas and knowledge to being one where point scoring, an attitude of self righteousness and an absolute lack of humour has become the norm.

Trolling and a FUCKLOAD of ignorance is, unfortunately becoming the norm on WG, just look at the names that are missing! Nobody is forced to be here.

Guilty of incurable ignorance, Your Honor, but hoping not so of self righteousness or lack of humor.  Well, OK, at least not the latter.   :laugh:

Many thanks,Pete, for what you and beetle bring here and, whether you like it or not, here's another  :bow: 

OBTW, the "assistant principal in charge of discipline" taught me a great lesson in discretion, another casualty of our present, often lamentable times.  He read the note from Ms. Crick along with mine, told me to bend over, lightly touched my butt with the "Board of Education," and told me to be more careful in passing notes.  Now there's a guy who deserved a  :bow:

Bill


Offline Demar

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Re: Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.
« Reply #198 on: September 24, 2015, 12:26:55 PM »
I love this thread.  :grin:
I'd much rather ask for forgiveness than ask for permission.

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canuguzzi

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Re: Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.
« Reply #199 on: September 24, 2015, 01:20:33 PM »
Depends how far it's gone. How willing are you to take the risk?

Me? I'd look at a whole lot of things through a prism of experience and then listen carefully to what the vendor said. I'd buy a Flattie in a heartbeat if it had a good history but I'd also expect to rollerise it and build it into the price.

You seem to be asking me for some sort of concrete guarantee as to what is a good buy! How the hell would I know? I'm just some other jerk on the Internet!

Pete

Sorry Pete, you aren't just some jerk on the Internet, like it or not, you've contributed to the satisfaction and understanding of things MG for a lot of people and like people appointed to things by others, people value your input. That you display humility and on some occasions are humble when it comes the questions like that only serves to reinforce the perception.

Just the way it is. Just look around at all the self serving greedy f'ers out there that got elected to something, bought their way there or managed to run some company for the seemingly singular purpose of screwing others and maybe you can appreciate why people ask you the questions they do.

They don't ask because they are ignorant fools, they ask because they choose to be otherwise.

beetle

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Re: Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.
« Reply #200 on: September 24, 2015, 04:15:42 PM »
OBTW, the "assistant principal in charge of discipline" taught me a great lesson in discretion, another casualty of our present, often lamentable times.  He read the note from Ms. Crick along with mine, told me to bend over, lightly touched my butt with the "Board of Education," and told me to be more careful in passing notes.  Now there's a guy who deserved a  :bow:.

Tee hee! :laugh:

Offline pyoungbl

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Re: Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.
« Reply #201 on: October 17, 2015, 04:05:14 PM »
Chalk up another one for rollerization.  At 23K miles I decided to install the "A" kit.  It seems foolish to wait for the tappets to go TU and hope you catch it before too much metal has circulated through the engine.  The kit was $1K and labor $.4K.  Heck, I even think it's a bit quieter now!  Before, my bike sounded like a can full of rocks...now, not so much.

Peter Y.
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'13 V7 Special (red/white)

Offline Lannis

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Re: Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.
« Reply #202 on: October 17, 2015, 06:00:00 PM »
Chalk up another one for rollerization.  At 23K miles I decided to install the "A" kit.  It seems foolish to wait for the tappets to go TU and hope you catch it before too much metal has circulated through the engine.  The kit was $1K and labor $.4K.  Heck, I even think it's a bit quieter now!  Before, my bike sounded like a can full of rocks...now, not so much.

Peter Y.

I assume that your flat tappets looked perfect, else you could have lobbied Guzzi for rollers instead of throwing $1K for the kit ... ?

Lannis
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Offline ohiorider

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Re: Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.
« Reply #203 on: October 17, 2015, 06:05:15 PM »
I assume that your flat tappets looked perfect, else you could have lobbied Guzzi for rollers instead of throwing $1K for the kit ... ?

Lannis
Good question, Lannis.  Peter, could you confirm the condition of your flat tappets at 23k?  Thanks!

Bob
« Last Edit: October 17, 2015, 06:07:53 PM by ohiorider »
Main ride:  2008 Guzzi 1200 Sport (sold July 2020)
2012 Griso 8v SE (sold Sept '15)
Reliable standby: 1991 BMW R100GS
2014 Honda CB1100 (Traded Nov 2019)
New:  2016 Triumph T120 (Traded Dec 2021)
New:  2021 Kawasaki W800

Offline Xlratr

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Re: Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.
« Reply #204 on: October 17, 2015, 06:08:15 PM »
Chalk up another one for rollerization.  At 23K miles I decided to install the "A" kit.  It seems foolish to wait for the tappets to go TU and hope you catch it before too much metal has circulated through the engine...

That was my motivation. Better get it done, move on and enjoy the peace of mind!
But your case is very interesting because I believe you had the oil analysed at every oil change. How did the tappets look?
John
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Offline pyoungbl

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Re: Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.
« Reply #205 on: October 17, 2015, 07:01:28 PM »
Gents, I decided to install the kit before anything went south.  Every oil analysis has been good but I started to think that 6K miles between oil changes could mean that I could have 5K miles with crap floating through my engine.  Waiting until the analysis showed a problem, or excess clearance on the valves, either way I'd be closing the gate after the horse was out of the barn...so to speak.  I had Redline order the kit.  They installed everything and gave me the old parts.  I just looked at the parts and can see one lobe of the cam that is clearly burned.  The tappets themselves seem to be held in place, I thought by an allen screw, but that's not working for me.  It would not surprise me to find that one of the tappets is wearing, as the cam indicates.  Bottom line, the problem is real.  I just caught it at the very earliest stage.  BTW, I have been using 10W60 most of the time and the bike is ridden for long trips, not short commutes.

Peter Y.
Growing old ain't for sissies.

'13 V7 Special (red/white)

Offline pyoungbl

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Re: Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.
« Reply #206 on: October 17, 2015, 07:28:42 PM »
Well, I thought about the tappet removal issue and realized that I could just remove the cam and the tappet would fall out into my hand.  Done.  Here's what I found:

so it's clear to me that my tappets were going south.  Word for the wise.

Peter Y.
Growing old ain't for sissies.

'13 V7 Special (red/white)

Offline ohiorider

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Re: Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.
« Reply #207 on: October 17, 2015, 07:34:36 PM »
Gents, I decided to install the kit before anything went south.  Every oil analysis has been good but I started to think that 6K miles between oil changes could mean that I could have 5K miles with crap floating through my engine.  Waiting until the analysis showed a problem, or excess clearance on the valves, either way I'd be closing the gate after the horse was out of the barn...so to speak.  I had Redline order the kit.  They installed everything and gave me the old parts.  I just looked at the parts and can see one lobe of the cam that is clearly burned.  The tappets themselves seem to be held in place, I thought by an allen screw, but that's not working for me.  It would not surprise me to find that one of the tappets is wearing, as the cam indicates.  Bottom line, the problem is real.  I just caught it at the very earliest stage.  BTW, I have been using 10W60 most of the time and the bike is ridden for long trips, not short commutes.

Peter Y.
Thank you, Peter .... that's good information.  Don't understand your reference to 'held in place by allen screws', but that is unimportant to me.  Sounds like using good (specified) oil, and not using the bike as a short-run commuter, kept things together for better than 20k miles.  I would probably have done exactly what you've done ..... frequent oil analysis, and ultimately biting the bullet and either having Piaggio or me paying for the kit, and having the rollers installed.

My Griso 8vSE was ridden and maintained much the same as your bike.

Bob

UPDATE: Doesn't look like the DLC (diamond like carbon) coating held up well on your tappets.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2015, 07:36:56 PM by ohiorider »
Main ride:  2008 Guzzi 1200 Sport (sold July 2020)
2012 Griso 8v SE (sold Sept '15)
Reliable standby: 1991 BMW R100GS
2014 Honda CB1100 (Traded Nov 2019)
New:  2016 Triumph T120 (Traded Dec 2021)
New:  2021 Kawasaki W800

Offline pyoungbl

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Re: Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.
« Reply #208 on: October 17, 2015, 07:48:23 PM »
Bob, I was just looking at the assembly that holds the cams and tappets.  There are holes that appear to be made for an allen wrench to secure the tappets.  I guess they are just lubrication holes.  At any rate, you have to drop the cam  and the lifters fall out.  Checking the lifters for wear will entail 100% of the labor of doing the replacement.  It's dumb to pull everything apart and not do the swap...in my humble opinion.

Peter Y.
Growing old ain't for sissies.

'13 V7 Special (red/white)

Offline Lannis

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Re: Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.
« Reply #209 on: October 17, 2015, 08:08:26 PM »
Bob, I was just looking at the assembly that holds the cams and tappets.  There are holes that appear to be made for an allen wrench to secure the tappets.  I guess they are just lubrication holes.  At any rate, you have to drop the cam  and the lifters fall out.  Checking the lifters for wear will entail 100% of the labor of doing the replacement.  It's dumb to pull everything apart and not do the swap...in my humble opinion.

Peter Y.

The way I understand it, if the tappets are damaged and losing their surface, Piaggio is supposed to GIVE you the roller kit.

Did you just decide to bag that and not put up with the Piaggio hassle?    I think I'd put up with a bit of delay and hassle for $1,000 .... ?

My plan is to have the dealer pull mine and get the deal from Piaggio .... ?

Lannis

"Hard pounding, this, gentlemen; let's see who pounds the longest".

 

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