California hydro . Service action camshaft... Hydraulic tappets ..Help needed

[Vasco DG]

Adamus, David, (Rodekyll.) has extensive experience with the Hydro engine, more than me I suspect and has seen more extensive damage than I have as the one's I've fixed have usually been caught early so listen to him. He knows what he's talking about.

As others are saying the first step is to drop the sump and open the timing chest. If there is a large amount of metallic crud in the sump and the oil pump shows any damage then there is a good chance, (Made more likely by the use of an oil with a higher base viscosity.) that the filter may of gone into bypass mode when the engine is cold and particulate crap will of been circulated through the rest of the engine. If this is the case then to clean it thoroughly you'll need to strip the engine to the last nut and bolt and even then you may find that the crankcase itself is damaged, (The camshaft runs in the case and the oil pump rotors seal against the case.). If that is the case then the entire engine is scrap or at least not economical to repair.

At that point sourcing a second hand engine really makes far more sense.

Pete

[guzzisteve]

As provided to me.

Campaign is still on as far as I know. Bad bikes are still out there. Pick a shop that knows their sh#t.
That looks like my printing.

[guzzisteve]

Be prepared to measure deck height to valve stem end. The tool kit for this procedure makes it simple to shim your new springs.

[Guzzistajohn]

Way to go Pete & David ;-T you guys are handy to have around.

[mphcycles]

Mike. Could you please specify what is included in this set?

Could you please check as well history of my bike based on vin number. As I mentioned before in Poland there is no serious dealer in my country so far. They said the there never has been a problem with hydro calis. Since you own or work in mphcycles this shouldn't be a big issue for you.
Thx Adam

I can check your vin tomorrow, the us system is in a software  upgrade and we are locked out . But regardless of what the vin show, if your parts are the old style as the pics show, it didnt get done. happened more than it should have....

[Vasco DG]

Thanks Mike, I was going to ask today when I phoned the importer about a 'Local' Griso but the poor wench I was talking to was obviously 'Doing it tough' so I refrained. As it was I got the answer I needed very quickly but I'm sure she would of broken down and either wept or torn me an extra arsehole if I'd tried to edge in a question about a twelve year old Munter from Poland! :D

Pete

[Vasco DG]

Just out of curiosity I punched the number posted above (887349) into our parts system and Lo and behold it is available and in stock. In Oz though the cost is $2,227.07 though!

Pete

[Adamus]

Hi I found it also at Harper's

http://www.harpermoto.com/tappet-887349.html   1756$ (but there is only stated "Tappet")

and the other number.

http://www.harpermoto.com/cam-recall-kit-03049872.html 645$ (Cam shaft recall) -
If mike has them on stock for 125$ i'll take it and don't care about shipment price  ;D


I found some engine here in Poland but it is from different machine - V11 Bilbao

http://allegro.pl/moto-guzzi-v11-sport-ballabio-2003-silnik-i5251761621.html         
Any idea if it is possible to put it to my frame? Of course I know it is different power characteristic in compare to california but the price isn't so bad (1300$)
It is together with gearbox but without fuel system. (my is OK)

[Kent in Upstate NY]

It is possible as several people here have done it.

[Vasco DG]

This is the same engine we used to resurrect the Cali in New Zealand. You'll need to swap the sump from your engine along with the clutch if you want to keep the heavy flywheel of the Cali. The advantage of going down this route is you could recoup some of the outlay by on-selling the six speed gearbox and other parts.

Pete

[Adamus]

OK
Lets begin. Sump goes down..soon photos

[Adamus]

So..bad news.many metalic shavings in botom of sump..many metal shavings close to timing chain...f...
photos later ...

[rodekyll]

We need a hat-over-heart smarm.   :'(

The good news (if there is any) is that yours is the highest mile hydro I've heard of with the original cam and lifters still installed.  Most would have been dead 30,000 km ago.

I'd go with Pete's recommendation to replace the engine entirely with a used runner.  There will be very little if anything serviceable in yours, and even the bits that look good could well have hidden damage.


If it was me, I'd find another hydro -- a sorted one -- to replace it.   ~;

[Adamus]

RD - I like your sens of humor ..
So far i cannot disasembly big nut from crankshaft. I have no key for that...I will have to organize that for tomorrow.

[rodekyll]

If you put a big, flat screwdriver thorugh the timing inspection hole in the bellhousing to lock the flywheel you can get that nut off (lefty-loosy) with little effort.  If you are talking about the nut BEHIND the alternator and timing cover that holds the timing gear on, you can use the screwdriver and a cheap plumber's socket -- the kind used to remove recessed Fawcett bases -- of nearly the right size.  These  are long enough to slip over the crank snout and have a hole through the socket sidewall for another screwdriver to be used as a handle.  You can also get an adjustable wrench on the back of the plumber's socket (or use a shallow socket and breaker bar or air wrench).

[Vasco DG]

Afraid this would be the case. As RK says a new engine is the best bet.

Pete

[Adamus]

Need to  prepare special socket..It is about this nut which is holdiing rack on crankshaft (32mm)
I will buy it tommorrow. For today I have enough...

[wavedog]

Adamus- check your email and pm's. Sent some photos to you.

[Adamus]

This is how I endup today:( (or tonight...it is midnight here in Poland now)
<a  href="http://ifotos.pl/z/weswsqa/">[img width= height=]http://s2.ifotos.pl/img/DSCF4531J_weswsqa.jpg[/img][/url]

[Adamus]

Inserting here image it is a challenge,, I tried yesterady several times with no succes..and notification " Internal Server Error"
So again another try,
I took neodym magnet on top of screewdriver and I put it into sump - I found this


Below timing chain in crankcase


View from bottom - picture from sump view - you can see damage on cab lobe


Nice ha:)?

[rodekyll]

She's dead, Jim.   :'(

That's the classic damage, Adamus.  Textbook pictures.

See if the oil pump sprocket wiggles and pull the rod caps to see if that shrapnel has gotten into the bearings.  If it has, my guess would be that the mains and oil pump are also embedded with cam.  If the chunks have worked their way up to the cam journals the crankcase is also destroyed since the cam rides directly in the case casting. 

If the pump sprocket feels solid then the pump bearings have not been ground away.  If there are no chunks in the rod bearings the oil filter may have caught the worst of it.  Those would be encouraging signs.  I'd still want to do a teardown on the bench to inspect everything, but I'd have more confidence that I wasn't just wasting time.

[Vasco DG]

It is, to use the vernacular, 'Donald Ducked'!

I'm sure that even in Polish translation the implication is obvious?

Don't bother digging further. Get a second hand engine.

Pete

[Adamus]

Honestly speaking.
 I will just strip complete engine and search for replacer. (I already got offer from Jacksonsville for complete bike)
But.. I got direct contact to Moto Guzzi Italia thru my colegues from company where I work (Atlas Copco Tools).
So I sent all data to him and he will forward it to guzzi and see what they will say. I just wnat to be sure that recall action was asigned and someone within Guzzi dealership has marked my VIN as already upgraded.
They will also try to check if engine was orginally in this frame or it was already replaced. (based on VIN and motor sn).
Almost forgot.. After remooving of timing cover I discoverd some "home made" marks for correct aligment of timing system. It means that someone already opened this engine before I did it..And it seems that wasn't any specialist - he did marks on oil pump wheel:) - which I think (I'm more than sure) is unnecessary.

cheers.

She's dead Jim - indeed:)

[Chuck in Indiana]

She's dead Jim - indeed:)

Funny, I was looking at your pictures and thought exactly that. Then I scrolled down, and RK said that.  ;D
Unfortunately, this is what I feared all along.. Maybe your contact at Guzzi will be some help. Good luck!

[Adamus]

Well .. Who wants to see body of dead lady :)

Cam shaft - cam lobes totally damaged


Cam bearing 1 - nothing happend - looks really god - I did not find any shavings..


Cam bearing 2 - also without anything wrong


tappet - :) the noisy ones... (inlet right)


comparizon - two tappets - where is the rest? - sump or everywhere :)


Oil pump is NOK. Gear teeths are damaged (something flowed between them - tappet: :-*).
Crankcase has also scratches on surface where gearwheel's are working.
But I have Idea how to repair oil pump section. I could prepare plate in shape of oil pump in thickness of 1mm. Oil pump gearwheel has to be machined (1mm) - to get it back into its previous position (When I put plate between pump and crankcase than oil pump gearwheel will moove to front.). So maybe it is not over yet;D
Camshaft bearings are Ok - nothomg vissible there..
I found metal chunks only in sump oil pump and in timing chain box. i wonder if it is possible to clean crankcase completly from this sh...

[rodekyll]

Got pics of the oil pump and rod bearings?

My opinion is that if the oil pump teeth and/or bearings failed, then the oil pump should be replaced -- not repaired, along with its sprocket.  I have spare pump sprockets if you can't find anything in your part of the planet.  I do not have spare oil pumps.

[Vasco DG]

I've got several oil pumps but I thought the later Cali's had one with wider teeth? I think mine are all off earlier bikes.

How deep are the gouges in the front of the case? It might be possible to mill the front of the case flat again. If it only takes a few thou the chain would cope with that easily enough.

Pete

[rodekyll]

The pump issue is complicated.  IIRC, there are 13mm and 15mm blade widths.  The 15mm (wider type) that I have seen are the ones with no bearings.  I think they were installed on some later high-performance engines and had a bad history of failure due to no darn bearings.  I'm being deliberately vague for fear of passing on bad information.  Please tell me I'm wrong on account of I'd like the bigger pump in my rig and with the understanding I've just typed, I can't justify installing one.

Pics would really help . . .

[Vasco DG]

The early hi-cams had a bearingless pump and it had a higher capacity I believe because of the increased bearing surface. I really can't remember about the earlier pumps. The 700/750 loops also used bearingless pumps I believe? Charlie?

Pete

[jacksonracingcomau]

The pump issue is complicated.  IIRC, there are 13mm and 15mm blade widths.  The 15mm (wider type) that I have seen are the ones with no bearings.  I think they were installed on some later high-performance engines and had a bad history of failure due to no darn bearings.  I'm being deliberately vague for fear of passing on bad information.  Please tell me I'm wrong on account of I'd like the bigger pump in my rig and with the understanding I've just typed, I can't justify installing one.

Pics would really help . . .

Definitely not the case
Don't know year of change but 96 Cali engine had the wider pump and gears with needle roller bearings so very likely hydro has same or could have.
Only issue I found with late pump was the need to machine (alloy) gear to get it further on, guess the original sprocket was either slightly different offset or chain ran a little offline. Sprocket part number would tell

Adamus

As RK says, have a look at shells, if they survived, you'll get away with recall kit, chain, maybe sprockets and pump fixed, fingers crossed.
Hope Guzzi give you kit but if not , buying for $125 from MPH sounds reasonable