Author Topic: Got my cali back together and... no fuel....  (Read 434 times)

Offline lazlokovacs

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Got my cali back together and... no fuel....
« on: June 25, 2021, 01:03:40 PM »
Ok, short version first.

With verified fuel pressure in the hose, when I test the injectors with guzzidiag, what kind of spray should I see? I'm getting like 4 or 5 consecutive bursts of fuel that go about 9 or 1O inches from the injector, but don't really look like a fine mist.

Is ultrasonic a good way to go for cleaning the injectors?

Thanks

Cal Vintage 2008 btw

« Last Edit: June 25, 2021, 01:53:35 PM by lazlokovacs »

Online moto-uno

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Re: Got my cali back together and... no fuel problems....
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2021, 01:14:01 PM »
 Have you tried running it ? That may be okay . Peter

Offline lazlokovacs

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Re: Got my cali back together and... no fuel problems....
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2021, 01:53:14 PM »
sorry if I wasn't clear... It won't run...

I'm getting spark

Offline guzzisteve

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Re: Got my cali back together and... no fuel....
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2021, 02:19:08 PM »
If gas comes out it will run. Pump has to keep running as  it's unloading gas.  It may be it pumps up initially but then doesn't come back on for the running process. Check valves too, got to have compression.  Check your fuses and relays.
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Re: Got my cali back together and... no fuel....
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2021, 02:19:08 PM »

Offline pat80flh

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Re: Got my cali back together and... no fuel....
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2021, 03:58:41 PM »
How much pressure do you have? with the hose unhooked and pump running should get a pint in 30 or so seconds. Volume is just as important as pressure.
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Offline lazlokovacs

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Re: Got my cali back together and... no fuel....
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2021, 04:03:21 PM »
ok... I'll do the long version,

as I'm already a little bit down the line with the troubleshooting

Bike has just been rebuilt by me and my professional mechanic friend who has 30 years experience, but we're scratching our heads on this one.

there is spark, (dual plugged model so fairly easy to check this)

the pump is running while the injectors cycle on guzzidiag test, but I'm getting a flat spray rather than anything approaching a cone shaped mist.

The pump manages to pump for the long duration of the guzzidiag pump test and I also believe that it is pumping while I try to start the bike.

Removing the injectors and turning on the pump releases fuel at a high velocity, the test I used is if it's too strong to keep your thumb over the hose then there's enough pressure.

bike was laid up for a while so there could be crud in the injectors?, have fitted a new fuel filter and cleaned up the tank.

When I try to start the bike I get spark and pump, but just won't fire. A bit of rockeaze and it fires briefly then immediately dies.

Curiously, with 1 gallon of fuel in the tank, I was getting no fuel from the pump, though the pump was definitely working. sloshed in an extra half gallon and fuel started getting through the hoses once more....

Online jwinwi

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Re: Got my cali back together and... no fuel....
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2021, 04:07:25 PM »
Fuel Filter?
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Offline Rich A

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Re: Got my cali back together and... no fuel....
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2021, 04:27:14 PM »
What's the reading for the throttle position sensor?

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Offline lazlokovacs

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Re: Got my cali back together and... no fuel....
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2021, 05:22:25 PM »

Offline lazlokovacs

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Re: Got my cali back together and... no fuel....
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2021, 05:23:24 PM »
What's the reading for the throttle position sensor?

Rich A

Not at the shop now, but it was 4.7 or something at idle and seemed to get higher in a normal linear way as I rotated the throttle....

Offline John A

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Re: Got my cali back together and... no fuel....
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2021, 06:04:05 PM »
Cam timing?
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Online moto-uno

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Re: Got my cali back together and... no fuel....
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2021, 06:23:20 PM »
 Here's a suggestion , can you remove one of the injector assemblies and then while trying to
start it , check to see if it sprays every second revolution ? A test to see if it gets the signal to
squirt and kinda when . Leave plugs in for test . Peter

Offline lazlokovacs

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Re: Got my cali back together and... no fuel....
« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2021, 06:44:21 PM »
Cam timing?

Well the phonic wheel is kind of impossible to install wrongly as far as I can tell....

And I would have thought cam timing being off would lead to backfiring and banging and wet plugs at the very least...

Offline lazlokovacs

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Re: Got my cali back together and... no fuel....
« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2021, 06:46:10 PM »
Here's a suggestion , can you remove one of the injector assemblies and then while trying to
start it , check to see if it sprays every second revolution ? A test to see if it gets the signal to
squirt and kinda when . Leave plugs in for test . Peter

Yes... great idea, thanks mate :thumb:

Online Tom H

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Re: Got my cali back together and... no fuel....
« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2021, 07:22:57 PM »
It sounds like you can get it to run on a Sure Start type spray. That to me says valves timing, ignition timing and spark are "about" right.

I'm thinking fuel, maybe too much from your description of the spray pattern???

Sorry I can't be of more help for a solution,
Tom
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Offline Stretch

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Re: Got my cali back together and... no fuel....
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2021, 07:39:15 PM »
Quote
A bit of rockeaze and it fires briefly then immediately dies.

It's gotta be something simple. If it fires and runs briefly with a little flammable something
in the intake tracts, then we can assume compression/spark/timing are "good enough."
That leaves fuel. With fuel injection, we can have an injection timing issue, or a volume
of fuel issue (clogged injector, etc.).

Air bubble in fuel pump/line somewhere? Try to bleed the line at the filter?

(You've double-checked that the fuel filter is installed
in the right direction - I know you have....... :wink: )

Maybe it just needs another gallon or two of fuel to allow the system to pressurize
initially. (I've seen that before with a heating system....)

Good Luck - let us know how it goes.

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Offline Rich A

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Re: Got my cali back together and... no fuel....
« Reply #16 on: June 26, 2021, 08:46:01 AM »
I think the bike will run on one cylinder, and if so, whatever is causing the problem is affecting both cylinders.

Rich A

Online Wayne Orwig

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Re: Got my cali back together and... no fuel....
« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2021, 09:09:08 AM »
Try starting fluid to verify the spark and cam timing are correct.
You may need to get the injectors cleaned. I have heard of issues with them gumming up when left for a long time. But, since you are getting some fuel, you would think it would occasionally fire a bit. Odd.
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Offline guzzisteve

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Re: Got my cali back together and... no fuel....
« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2021, 09:13:33 AM »
Just a thought, don't know what work you've done, BUT if a cam and had tone wheel off. I would check timing. Also pick up and air gap. Have an open mind on what work has been done, it could be more than one issue at same time.
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Offline geoff in almonte

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Re: Got my cali back together and... no fuel....
« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2021, 09:48:11 AM »
I know you checked, but how about the side stand switch?  or the kill switch?

Flame suit on.

G
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Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: Got my cali back together and... no fuel....
« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2021, 09:54:36 AM »
Did you have the timing chain off?
Its not easy to check the timing like on an old loop, Remove a rocker cover and be sure at TDC the exhaust valve is closing and the inlet Valve is just starting to open, both valves should be the same distance off the seat at TDC.
If that is correct chances are the phenolic wheel is ok because its the camshaft that determines when it sparks. You say you have spark so I assume the fuel  pump is running, I often suggest wiring a small lamp to the ECU relay to verify that.
The fuel pump will always turn over when you turn the key ON, that's just a simple timer.
When you are cranking the ignition and pump is triggered by the timing sensor, have you changed that in any way like extra gasket or "O" ring?
Check the sensor gap, an easy way is with a blob of quick setting epoxy on the tip, bolt it in place without turning the motor, when its set you can withdraw the sensor and measure the epoxy.
Can you be a bit more specific about the model of your bike
Old Calfornia i with the pizza box ECU or a modern California with small 15M ECU
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2002_Stone.gif
I assume its more modern see how the relay supplies all the vital organs, it's nice to know the status.
Come to think of it the bikes can sometimes fail with a dirty ignition switch, a light 0n the petcock fuse can show that up.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2021, 03:41:13 AM by Kiwi_Roy »
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Offline lazlokovacs

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Re: Got my cali back together and... no fuel....
« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2021, 11:08:41 AM »
I'm not sure if I can explain it but I got it sorted today.

Went back to the fuel pump. checking the operation of the realy with a light as suggested by KiwiRoy. Noticed that the light would illuminate sometimes and not others.

Removed the fuel hose, and turned the kill switch. Pump sound but no fuel. Hmmmm.

Removed tank and fuel pump/filter assembly.

Laid pump out in a bath of clean petrol/gas and gave it 12v. firing perfectly. Hmmmm.

Offered pump in a bucket of fuel up to the bike and connected  pump to it's connector on the bike. fired every time. Hmmm.

Meanwhile, I had the little bag mesh thing in an ultrasonic cleaner.

I then really didnt know what to do next so while I thought about next steps, I did a mod that I've done previously, putting the fuel filter outside the fuel tank, on the frame top rail.

Replaced fuel pump into tank (a lot easier without the filter to deal with as well) , refilled tank and turned the pump on with the kill switch. Sure enough high pressure petrol coming out of the hose.

Ok then, connected the hose to the injector and bingo, she fired.

took her for a brief ride. Idles good most of the time but with an occasional stumble at idle and a small miss at low throttle openings. My bet is that she just needs miles now. and possibly a TPS reset TB sync.

Gonna open a separate post to let you know about what happened on her maiden voyage...

Offline janguzzi

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Re: Got my cali back together and... no fuel....
« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2021, 05:01:28 PM »
Maybe my video helps:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqShjx2qpS4
Those fuel filters have to be mounted with a correct direction (in/out).
Kind Regards
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Online moto-uno

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Re: Got my cali back together and... no fuel....
« Reply #23 on: June 26, 2021, 05:01:50 PM »
  So you took a ride with the fuel filter outside the tank ? Kinda curious how you arrange that , got any pics ?  Peter
Congrats on getting it running !

Offline lazlokovacs

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Re: Got my cali back together and... no fuel....
« Reply #24 on: June 26, 2021, 06:09:18 PM »
It's a mod I did on my previous calvin, worked for 10s of thousands of miles...

Gives you more space in the tank, better peace of mind as you cram the pump back in there knowing that you're less likely to snap something off as you twist it in and crucially, makes changing your fuel filter that much easier and therefore more frequent.. it's cheap and fuel is s--- these days so why not change it once a year??

You remove the hose that goes from the pump to the filter and make it go to the tank spigot. then you get the quick release fitting off the exisitng external fuel hose and use that on the downstream side of your filter, upstream you add an extra hose with the quick release on it and voila.

I wrap mine in a bit of old innertube and cable tie it twice to the frame, never had any probs...


Online moto-uno

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Re: Got my cali back together and... no fuel....
« Reply #25 on: June 26, 2021, 07:49:39 PM »
 Thanks for the follow-up , makes sense now !  Peter

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