Cardan Joint Turning In Carrier Bearing Inner Race

[Bill Havins]

I know I have seen this discussed before but I have been unable to find the earlier thread.

Judy and I were leaving the Post Office this afternoon (downtown with tall buildings lining streets) when the rear end of my '98 EV began to "howl." As I shifted into second and we gained speed the howl quit.  I quickly pulled to a stop and Judy leaned forward and said, "That was right under my right foot!"  Well, we all know what that means...  We made it home without any more "howling."  It's amazing how that sound echoed downtown!

I have just pulled everything apart and looked at the cardan joint; its bearings feel fine and seem to be well-greased.  The carrier bearing feels very stiff, but is not "notchy."  When I looked at the "slip fit" end of the cardan joint that rides in the inner race of the carrier bearing it showed obvious signs of having spun inside the race (discoloration suggestive of heating).

My initial thought is to replace the carrier bearing, but my concern is if the "slip-fit" end of the cardan joint is undersized this will happen again soon after the repair is done.

I would appreciate thoughts on what might be the better route to go with this repair.

Thanks!

Bill

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

In that situation, I make rows of small peen marks around the u-joint where it goes into the carrier bearing (to make it fit tighter) and apply Loctite 609 during assembly.

[Bill Havins]

Thanks, Charlie.  Should I be concerned that the carrier bearing is pretty "stiff" or tight?  It is a sealed bearing; they tend to be pretty stiff in my experience.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Thanks, Charlie.  Should I be concerned that the carrier bearing is pretty "stiff" or tight?  It is a sealed bearing; they tend to be pretty stiff in my experience.

Carrier bearings are inexpensive. I'd replace it.

[Bill Havins]

Thanks, again, Charlie.  Will do.

[dilligaf]

In that situation, I make rows of small peen marks around the u-joint where it goes into the carrier bearing (to make it fit tighter) and apply Loctite 609 during assembly.

That is what I would do.

Carrier bearings are inexpensive. I'd replace it.

And I would also.  :BEER:
Matt

[Bill Havins]

Thanks, Matt.   :BEER:

[John A]

Actually I would replace them both but that's just me, I have experienced a catastrophic failures of that assembly. Now that will test your riding ability. To assemble it I heat the swingarm,drop in the bearing then heat the bearing carefully and put in the joint after degreasing the mating surfaces with lacquer thinner and putting on stud and bearing mount on the joint and inner race. Some use acetone but that's not a good oil solvent. It's overkill and you prolly wil be ok with the center punch method, I just got excited after that one episode.

[dilligaf]

John,
Were I still a Moto Guzzi dealer I would also replace both.  I would be expect to warranty my parts and labor and, I suspect, that is the only way MG would stand behind the repairs.  However, the center punch method has been used for years with success.  ;D  :BEER:
Matt

[Kiwi_Roy]

John Chiocaine sent mine back all restored looking like new, he even included a small tube of Loctite  ;-T
He also has service kits for the old petcocks.

[John A]

I agree and I have used the center punch with success, I suppose my thinking now is that it's one of the few items that not only will it stop you it will kill you. If I only use it locally and look at it again before easing out to west Texas ,although I think west Texas is local for Bill,I don't see anything wrong with knurling the end to tighten up the fit of an otherwise serviceable joint. On the other hand I don't have much trouble spending a few hundred bones on something as vital as a u joint unless I have a gob of bikes. I'm guessing I get 50k or more on a joint but I'm not sure when I did the last one, three bikes, three different u joints. So it's a roll of the dice, like I said,I would replace them both, unless it cut into the pork chop budget! I just read the post by Kiwi Roy, a rebuilt joint is a good choice. I used to disassemble them to grease them, now I don't want to fool with that so if the fit isn't what I like or it needs attention some other way, I replace it. It's a subjective judgement call.there are only two choices: good or bad

[Bill Havins]

Well, I ordered the whole shooting match from Moto International (I guess they are reputable enough...).  This U-Joint "may" have over 30,000 miles on it (don't have any idea what the two previous owners may have done or when).  But, there were two different types of hose clamps on the boot which makes me think someone was in there at some point for some reason (a "squirt of 90 weight to keep things slick?).  Anywho, I have new parts on the way.  I'll keep the old U-Joint and compare its movement with the new one; if they are similar I'll wrap up the old one and keep it "just in case."

And of course, in my "rush" (we wanted to ride today) I didn't drain the rear end - knocked it over at some point and had to clean up a puddle of 90-weight with moly that was slowly flowing to the low spots in the garage floor.  Sometimes I work with an idiot (I see him in the mirror a lot).   ::)

Bill

[guzzisteve]

I use 680 green on them w/o peening. Cal2 was peened 80K miles ago. EV just got new joint & bearing w/680. 680 fill a gap up to .015" but wasn't good enough for the wear on the UJ from spinning inside carrier. I saved it and will turn down opposite side(toward trans) to reuse next time. I let mine go for 2yrs hearing the noise, then it got worse. Loctite 609 takes up to .005" gap, 648 is up to .010", 680 is .015".  I also use this stuff on the wheel bearings in the cast wheels on Cal2 sidecar rig, been changed too many times from side load.

[Bill Havins]

Before I popped the bearing out I cleaned everything very well inside the cardan joint area of the swing arm.  The carrier bearing loosened up (was no longer "stiff" feeling) and was obviously "notchy."  A little effort with a dead blow hammer and a steel rod and the bearing popped out.  It now feels like it has dirt or something in it, but I guess I would too if someone went to wanging on me with a dead blow and a steel rod.

The bearing is an SKF marked "made in Italy."  Makes me wonder if it's the original, especially since the bike was built in '98 or thereabouts (before parts sourcing was worldwide almost everywhere).

I guess the moral of the story is when a bearing "howls" there's a replacement for it in your future.

Cheers!

[mtiberio]

once you hammer on the inner race of a bearing to free it, you should never reuse it.

[Chuck in Indiana]

once you hammer on the inner race of a bearing to free it, you should never reuse it.

this

[Aaron D.]

I am in total agreement on the damage to the bearing when pressing or whacking on the inner race (when the bearing is supported by the outer race).

So-with the new ujoint/bearing fit being a press fit on the last few I did, even with freezing the ujoint, I still was uncomfortable with the force needed to install the ujoint.

Comments?

[Cheese]

I am in total agreement on the damage to the bearing when pressing or whacking on the inner race (when the bearing is supported by the outer race).

So-with the new ujoint/bearing fit being a press fit on the last few I did, even with freezing the ujoint, I still was uncomfortable with the force needed to install the ujoint.

Comments?

Couldn't you use a press with proper tooling to fit the inner race? Did you measure the interference?


Peter?

[Bill Havins]

Couldn't you use a press with proper tooling to fit the inner race?

Bearings have to be installed with pressure on the outer race.  It's okay to remove them with pressure on the inner race but, once removed, they go in the metal recycling.

My plan is to freeze the bearing and gently heat the swingarm.  If pressure is required I'll figure something out.  Perhaps I can turn a piece of aluminum plate to fit inside the swingarm and then apply pressure to the outside bearing race with it.

Another adventure...

[Cheese]

Bearings have to be installed with pressure on the outer race.  It's okay to remove them with pressure on the inner race but, once removed, they go in the metal recycling.

My plan is to freeze the bearing and gently heat the swingarm.  If pressure is required I'll figure something out.  Perhaps I can turn a piece of aluminum plate to fit inside the swingarm and then apply pressure to the outside bearing race with it.

Another adventure...

I thought Aaron was referring to the cardan/inner race fit..("So-with the new ujoint/bearing fit being a press fit on the last few I did, even with freezing the ujoint, I still was uncomfortable with the force needed to install the ujoint".)


Peter

[Bill Havins]

Cheese,

You're right; sorry I missed what you were referring to.

We'll see what kind of a "fit" there is for the parts I get from Moto International.

Bill

[Aaron D.]

Correct, I'm refering to installing the cardan joint into the (already-in-swingam) bearing.

I used to find the bearing was a slip fit, but that has changed. I do freeze the joint, and it does go in but it is still more than I'd like to see/feel.

[Cheese]

Can the joint be installed in the bearing and then both installed in the swingarm as a unit?

[Bill Havins]

The challenge is getting to the outside race of the carrier bearing with the cardan joint installed.  It would require a "tube" to slip down around the cardan joint and onto the race.

But other than that "everything's peachy."

[John A]

Can the joint be installed in the bearing and then both installed in the swingarm as a unit?

.   In the EV swing arm it is possible to install the clip and bearing on the joint, then the assembly into the swingarm. I've done it that way and it works well.there is a small challenge seating the circlip but not bad. The T3 G5 you cannot as the housing is too small to work in