Edit: Norge have immobilizer? Won’t start

[fotoguzzi]

If so and if the immobilizer has lost memory can you recover the connection? It doesn’t look like the key has a battery in it.

[Bulldog9]

If so and if the immobilizer has lost memory can you recover the connection? It doesn’t look like the key has a battery in it.

No battery in the key, but there is a transponder chip in the key that communicates with the ECU through an 'antenna' that surrounds the key slot.  The key is not programmed, it is the ECU that 'learns' to communicate with key and register it to the ECU so the bike will run. Otherwise the ECU will 'immobilize' the bike.

You need the user code to program the dash to register keys.

[fotoguzzi]

Hm,  I don’t suppose that’s the same as the service code, is it?

[fotoguzzi]

I think my key is fine but Here’s why I ask.

My Norge (2007) and my buddies 2008 have the same no start problem. Actually it will start by jumping the relay but the start button doesn’t work.

I’ve read everything i can find but still don’t have the answer. First the startus-interuptus fix has been done. Norge 1200.
turn key on, dash sweeps as normal and hear all the regular noises purge pump etc. push start button hear a thunk (from the starter solenoid?) and then nothing. It’s like everything good right up till the point where the starter should spin. Like I said the fix of a battery fused wire to the yellow wire at the start solenoid has been done.
if I jump the yellow to orange wires at the start solenoid the starter spins and bike starts. So the basic thing is the start button does not get the starter spinning. Checked the clutch switch, SS switch, neutral light works, new battery that checks out. I had a suggestion to clean the ground on back of starter but since it starts by jumping the solenoid I don’t think that could be it? The button wiring goes thru the clutch switch and the bank angle sensor (I tested and it works) could that be where the problem is? But why on both bikes would that fail?
what am I missing, it sounds like I’m having a brain fog or something but I read the start procedure in manual and follow exactly.
it’s pretty weird that two bikes in one garage have this same problem but I find nothing on line with this exact situation.
Tried 3 batteries one is brand new.

[fotoguzzi]

I have ordered all new relays and should have them tomorrow.

[cappisj1]

Make sure the battery is good. I bought a new interstate battery and got the no start click but a jump would fire it right up. I took the bike to them so they could test the battery. It checked ok but they gave me another one. Have been using that other one for 4 years no issues.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Well, Brad.. it's *not* the immobilizer. Cleaning up the  ground is a good idea..

[Scott of the Sahara]

just because the battery shows 12 or 13 volts does not mean it has cranking amps

[MattP]

read your own post brad the starter works there for the bat works your not getting enough amps to the solanoid .

[rocker59]

I think a search for "Startus Interuptus" may be in order.

[fotoguzzi]

I think a search for "Startus Interuptus" may be in order.

Thatwas the very first thing we did.

Like I said the fix of a battery fused wire to the yellow wire at the start solenoid has been done.

[Tom H]

When you hit the starter button, have you "confirmed" that the noise your hearing is the starter solenoid?

You said that you could jump 2 wires and the bike will crank and start. To be sure I understand. If you took a jumper wire from battery positive and touch it to the starter solenoid small spade connector the bike will crank and start?

If it will start with the jumper wire, the starter and battery positive and ground seem to be working.

I would make sure your starting relays are all getting power in and out as they should and confirm how may volts your getting to the spade on the solenoid.

If all check out. It "MAY" be a bad ECU. PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the ECU has final say as to if the bike will crank? I DO remember a post a few months ago with a bike that had starting issues. I can't remember the details, but I think he ended up swapped the ECU with a Ducatti one and problem of starting solved. I think he then tried a friends Guzzi ECU and again solved IIRR. Might be worth searching for the thread. The guy was in the UK I think.

Good luck,
Tom

[pauldaytona]

Guzzidiag at hand?, it will show if bike is ready to crank.

[fotoguzzi]

Guzzidiag at hand?, it will show if bike is ready to crank.

it shows discrepancies, saying start possible and start switch electrical errors.
Why would the GD show a different voltage that reading right off the battery. I see now why it won’t crank with not enough voltage but I used a new battery showing 12.8 before key on. Then tried another battery with a jumper hooked to a second battery but still got the low voltage signal.
Am I the new “Mr Nevada”?

[guzzisteve]

There's your load test!

[blackcat]

“Am I the new “Mr Nevada”?“

Not even close may he rest in peace.

[fotoguzzi]

There's your load test!

if true why does it fire right off when jumping the starter relay?

[GuzziOrDeath]

The ECU requires a good ground and connection to measure the battery volts. If your multimeter reads, say 12.8V, but GuzziDiag shows 11.4, then either you have a bad connection or ground (most likely), or the ADC (analog to digital converter) in the ECU isn't working properly (least likely).

Startus Interruptus is probable. Check the ground on the ECU is clean and tight before going there, however. I've seen bad kill and start switches cause issues, too.


FYI, the immobiliser is controlled by the dash, not the ECU. Since you're getting the 'Start Possible' message in GuzziDiag, it's not the immobiliser. Even with worst case scenario, if the dash is sending the ECU the "don't start" message, just disconnect the dash to confirm. The engine will start without the dash connected.

[Kiwi_Roy]

if you connect the yellow wire to the Orange /green on at the starter relay it cranks, right? You can do that by removing the Start relay and jumping between the two contact terminals of the socket

[Kiwi_Roy]

There are several wires that have to be in great shape to fix Startus interrupts
The yellow at the start relay should be a 16 gauge direct from the battery via a dictated fuse,
the wire from start relay to the solenoid should also be a #16
The bank angle sensor needs to be closed, it
s interlocked with thee start relay coilI have found that jumping the battery to the solenoid spade seems to close it, it can open if the bike is dropped
causing the starter to wind over can shake it closed.

[Bulldog9]

if true why does it fire right off when jumping the starter relay?

If this is the case, is clearly not a key-immobilizer issue, likely 'starter interuptus' Lots of thread on that.

BLUF: Stock wiring doesn't deliver enough current to starter to engage and turn the engine over.

[fotoguzzi]

There are several wires that have to be in great shape to fix Startus interrupts
The yellow at the start relay should be a 16 gauge direct from the battery via a dictated fuse,
the wire from start relay to the solenoid should also be a #16
The bank angle sensor needs to be closed, it
s interlocked with thee start relay coilI have found that jumping the battery to the solenoid spade seems to close it, it can open if the bike is dropped
causing the starter to wind over can shake it closed.

yes, if jumping the orange and yellow at the starter relay it will start. That wire from battery is 16g with a fuse. I have not done anything with the wire from relay to solenoid, I’ll look into that. Maybe that’s where I’m losing the amps to the starter?
I took the bank angle sensor out and tested it with an ohm meter, seemed to work, lost continuity when I tipped it 90* sideways. The starter solenoid pin is not very accessible on a Norge.
As a little more of a challenge some of the wire colors do not match the schematic I have, most do.. and 4 of the relay are identical but the 5th relay is bigger and has a different orientation of the pins, that’s the one that colors don’t match up , pretty sure that 5th relay is different on my buddies bike too, it’s either a headlight relay or one of the injector relays, I haven’t figured that out yet but should be able to by unplugging and see if the low or high beam are working I guess.
I have replaced all the relays but nothing changed.
We have thought about just putting in a new start button where we jump the start relay but both of us would rather find out why it does not start with the button on handlebar.
Getting to the ECU to check or add a ground is a pain. It’s buried under the tank and frame tubes up near the steering head but we might have to go there too. I guess that should be done nextNeither of the bikes have lived outside or been in the kind of situation that would cause corrosion but I guess any bad contact could be happening. Mine does have 94k, Bone’s only 13k and really clean.having two bikes with the same odd problem is a real stumper.

[fotoguzzi]

If this is the case, is clearly not a key-immobilizer issue, likely 'starter interuptus' Lots of thread on that.

BLUF: Stock wiring doesn't deliver enough current to starter to engage and turn the engine over.

the first part of interuptus was the first thing we did. The fused wire from battery to yellow at the starter relay was done. We have not done a 16g wire from relay to solenoid, I have not seen that part of the fix before.

Also, the bike starts if jumped around the relay and uses the existing wire from relay to solenoid so why would the gauge of wire matter if it works fine when jumping the relay?

[drdwb]

My 07 Norge had a similar problem, intermittently though, that’s when I discovered it had already had most of the status interruptis fix done. Mine still doesn’t have the 16 ga going from start relay to solenoid, I will do that in a few weeks. My problem was in the kill switch connections.

[pauldaytona]

it shows discrepancies, saying start possible and start switch electrical errors.
Why would the GD show a different voltage that reading right off the battery. I see now why it won’t crank with not enough voltage but I used a new battery showing 12.8 before key on. Then tried another battery with a jumper hooked to a second battery but still got the low voltage signal.
Am I the new “Mr Nevada”?

Clear the errors, to show what is now on error. When it's empty, try to start and read afterwards to see if you got new errors.

Voltage shown in the dash ist always lower than measured on the battery direct.

[Chuck in Indiana]

I have not done anything with the wire from relay to solenoid, I’ll look into that. Maybe that’s where I’m losing the amps to the starter?

I have seen a corroded connector at the solenoid cause what you are talking about. Put a 16 gauge wire on there, and a new connector.

[bratman2]

Had a pretty good run of not wanting to start with my 09 Norge.  Starter interuptus had been done years ago. Grounds cleaned and rebolted down. Nearly new Ballistic battery one size above what was called for. Finally pulled my starter and found that the grease had gotten kind of thick and sticky in the starter. Cleaned, lubed and reassembled and has been working fine since. May not be your problem being you can jump it out. Was my problem.

[Juan1]

I'm eager to see how this is resolved.  I had a '07 Norge with this issue. Also did the Startus Interruptus, cleaned the ground point, cleaned the starter, and dropped in a fresh battery.  The issue was gone for a bit, but eventually came back...as I was selling the bike! 

BTW, I consider the Norge to be a near perfect bike unless lane splitting is involved.

[pehayes]

Bump.
Has this problem been solved on the 'fotoguzzi' bike?
Add another one to the list.
I'm trying to sell a 2006 Breva 11 cheap.  See the Swap Meet.  So, of course, now the bike won't start and I can't demo or show it.
Yes, a home grown Startus Interruptus was done years ago.
Yes, brand new MotoBatt AGM in October.  Normally sits on a solar maintainer.

I get just a loud CLUNK, heard and felt at the starter itself.  I started attacking connections everywhere.  I found two crimp spades that just freely pulled off their wires.  Aha, must be it!  No such luck.  Rechecked every spade, every crimp, every added wire.  Changed to a new automotive cube relay.  The starter button system doesn't do anything except power the little electromagnetic coil within the relay.  Pretty insignificant load.  I even opened the older relay and burnished the contact surfaces.  DeOxit sprayed everywhere.  I have 12" of 12ga going direct from the battery post to the relay.  I have another 12" of 12ga going from the relay to the starter spade.  All crimps were re-crimped at the wires.  All used spades were pinched down for better contact.

Clunk!  Clunk!

Now, I also have 24" of simple 18ga wire with alligators at each end.  Clamp one end at the battery post.  Poke the other end directly onto the starter spade.
Crank and zoom EVERY time.  Never a hesitation. 

I'm stumped.  The only difference between my 24" of smaller wire and my larger wires on the relay is the number of spade connectors involved and the relay internal contacts.
But I cleaned and burnished the contacts.
But I changed to another brand new relay.
But I re-crimped every wire.
Can't be the starter or solenoid or it wouldn't work reliably with my alligator jump wire.
I've manipulated every possible connection.

Any ideas?

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[Tom H]

I posted earlier that I think the ECU may control the starter. Can anyone confirm this. Again, there was a post I think about a Norge that the ECU starter circuits had gone bad. I can't find that post.

I do hope I'm wrong and it's something simple.

Tom