Author Topic: "Guzzi has lost it's way"  (Read 34436 times)

Offline leafman60

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Re: "Guzzi has lost it's way"
« Reply #30 on: January 06, 2015, 05:59:47 AM »
My guess is they will eventually, when the economy is stronger, launch a new 'Sporting' bike. I also expect that most of the people clamouring for them to do so will stay away from it in droves!

Pete


Boy, I agree with that! lol

Only thing is that some folks not even considering a Guzzi may be drawn into the fold.  So much of the current ownership base for Guzzi are not the people to buy their new bikes. 

Offline Dilliw

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Re: "Guzzi has lost it's way"
« Reply #31 on: January 06, 2015, 08:47:19 AM »
Why is all of that plastic on the Millepercento bike?

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Offline twhitaker

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Re: "Guzzi has lost it's way"
« Reply #32 on: January 06, 2015, 08:59:06 AM »
Why is all of that plastic on the Millepercento bike?



It's there to channel the air to the under seat mounted radiator.   ::)  Which brings me to mind an episode of 'Chopper build offs' where the builder made the seat pan a 'muffler'. He wound up tossing the seat into a ditch to put the fire out.
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Offline kevdog3019

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Re: "Guzzi has lost it's way"
« Reply #33 on: January 06, 2015, 09:52:17 AM »
Guzzi makes "sport" bike:

Guzzi followers: "I wish they did this or that" (usual Lemans series re-hashing)... never consider purchase.  
Non-Guzzi riders: "They call that their sport bike?" (too heavy, too little hp, all the usual panning)

Guzzi loses
How about a retro round-fin with carbs like the CX?  :P
« Last Edit: January 06, 2015, 09:57:09 AM by kevdog3019 »
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Re: "Guzzi has lost it's way"
« Reply #33 on: January 06, 2015, 09:52:17 AM »

Doppelgaenger

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Re: "Guzzi has lost it's way"
« Reply #34 on: January 06, 2015, 11:51:06 AM »
I do have to say, when your business is in the crapper, you make sure that you have a solid base product that lots of people are buying and enjoying before you go out and make something crazy. Otherwise you end up like Motus making their stupid overpriced V4 that no one is going to buy no matter how good it is unless they can slash the price in half. I think it's a testament to MG that there are NEVER any v7 bikes for sale on craigslist up here in the seattle area. I don't know how many dave sells, but there are a lot more brevas, norges and grisos up for sale on the second hand market.

With a solid business, which is where they are right now, Guzzi can afford to innovate. In fact, they can't afford NOT to. They need a tour-de-force engine redesign that will at least show that they are still relevant, something that captures people's imagination. Sure Ducati makes the Panigale and a bunch of other hyperbike pornography, but the Monster is really the bread winner for the brand. Along the same lines, it makes sense that they would make sure the V7 line is as good as it can get, and make sure that it's constantly evolving and improviing, before they go and make something outrageous. But they DO have to make something outrageous. Not power-wise, unless they abandon the transverse V-twin or find a way to make it shed 100 pounds, but yes in the styling and looks department.

In Miguel Galluzi's own words: "The Guzzi crowd is extremely conservative, but if we only concentrate on those, we are going to lose eventually. So these bikes are looking into the future." This is similar to the balance sought with earlier Ducati designs, but, "the advantage Guzzi has versus Ducati is that Ducati makes sportsbikes, Guzzi can do anything it wants because they’ve been doing it a long time and on all sorts of bikes. We are not in a box, we can do anything we want as long as we are able to make it."

At least the days of the horsepower wars seem to be over, Kawasaki's idiotic H2 attempt to rekindle the flames non-withstanding.

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Re: "Guzzi has lost it's way"
« Reply #35 on: January 06, 2015, 12:36:24 PM »
A long time ago a friend much smarter than me, told me that no matter how good the product is, if you are not constantly marketing you are slowly going out of business.  I don't want to be riding the same bike everyone else is, but when riding all over my state, Florida, for over 3 years and i have only seen one other Guzzi on the road, then that speaks volumes about Piaggio's commitment, or lack of.  Additionally the local bike shop dropped the Piaggio line several years ago because of a horrendous experience with them, and I have heard the same from other ex-dealers.  Just sayin.....

I certainly understand that without Piaggio MG may not be around, but their commitment to growing the dealer network and brand is questionable in my mind. 

Offline segesta

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Re: "Guzzi has lost its way"
« Reply #36 on: January 06, 2015, 12:59:14 PM »
Honda sells 87% of its motorcycles in Asia, mostly scooters at 125cc or less. Guzzi survival is likely not about selling to us few remaining old guys in the western hemisphere, but the huge numbers of young people in high-traffic cities in Thailand and China.
Go back its horizontal single that was Guzzi's bread and butter for almost 50 years! Ie, a scooter that happens to be a motorcycle.

PS sorry, had to fix the "it's" in the subject line, that was bugging me.
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Offline not-fishing

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Re: "Guzzi has lost its way"
« Reply #37 on: January 06, 2015, 01:24:56 PM »
Honda sells 87% of its motorcycles in Asia, mostly scooters at 125cc or less. Guzzi survival is likely not about selling to us few remaining old guys in the western hemisphere, but the huge numbers of young people in high-traffic cities in Thailand and China.
Go back its horizontal single that was Guzzi's bread and butter for almost 50 years! Ie, a scooter that happens to be a motorcycle

A Nuovo-Nuovo Falcone ---now that would be interesting.  Something in a 375cc (1/2 a V7) horizontal single!  Perfect for around town.
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Offline trippah

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Re: "Guzzi has lost it's way"
« Reply #38 on: January 06, 2015, 03:09:33 PM »
What we need is a well built 700=800 cc sloper single with all the inherent ease of riding without a lot of plastic body shell.  The engine should be prominent, well displayed and artistically finished.  A real pussycat to ride to or around town, panther like in its grace. ;D ;D ;D

oldbike54

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Re: "Guzzi has lost it's way"
« Reply #39 on: January 06, 2015, 04:23:55 PM »
What we need is a well built 700=800 cc sloper single with all the inherent ease of riding without a lot of plastic body shell.  The engine should be prominent, well displayed and artistically finished.  A real pussycat to ride to or around town, panther like in its grace. ;D ;D ;D

 :D :D :D :D
So ... a modern Phelan & Moore . Actually , that ain't a bad idea , it would probably sell by the tens  ;D

  Dusty

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Re: "Guzzi has lost it's way"
« Reply #40 on: January 06, 2015, 05:17:52 PM »
Piaggio have owned Guzzi for almost eleven years.

In that time they have killed the V11 Sport / LeMans line and killed the MGS-01, but they have not released anything as sporting to replace them.




Sorry, that was a missed opportunity when they killed the MGS/01. Would it have sold in large numbers? We will never know but it would have brought people into the showroom. I know that I would have owned one.
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andrewdonald1

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Re: "Guzzi has lost it's way"
« Reply #41 on: January 06, 2015, 08:30:49 PM »
Sorry, that was a missed opportunity when they killed the MGS/01. Would it have sold in large numbers? We will never know but it would have brought people into the showroom. I know that I would have owned one.

If they wanted to, why couldn't they bring it back?

Offline arveno

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Re: "Guzzi has lost it's way"
« Reply #42 on: January 07, 2015, 06:56:45 AM »
someone mentioned dealers on wheels ?
check this out  :)

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Offline swalker

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Re: "Guzzi has lost it's way"
« Reply #43 on: January 07, 2015, 07:44:57 AM »
OK , let's look at this from a business perspective . What have been the biggest sellers for Guzzi since 1967 . The loop frame models , followed by the Tonti frame Californias , and now the V7 series , correct ? So , why would Piaggio put any R&D money into a sporting model that will sell in very limited numbers ? You guys wanting a true sporting bike are gonna have to look elsewhere , or learn to live with the current style of offerings . Even if the SB is seriously updated , what , maybe 60 HP from 850 CCs , and they will need serious suspension upgrades to use even that much power . I remember the last Le Mans in '04 gathering dust on Atlas motorcycles showroom . Yeah , guys would say it was cool , but it just sat there . Even the mags liked it , didn't help .

  Dusty

I remember Ken having a 1981 G5 that sat there longer than any bike he ever had, why....I am guessing the 3600.00 dollar price tag he would not come down on. Sometimes it is not  the bike... Just my thoughts.





















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Offline Tobit

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Re: "Guzzi has lost it's way"
« Reply #44 on: January 07, 2015, 08:51:01 AM »
IMO, as long as Piaggio has Aprilia under the tent, there's no need to invest in cutting edge sportbikes from Moto Guzzi. 

The best I'd expect to see is a Guzzi badged Aprilia, as was done with Benelli.

http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=45342.0

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Impulsive_Duc

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Re: "Guzzi has lost it's way"
« Reply #45 on: January 07, 2015, 09:28:48 AM »
As someone new to the Guzzi brand, I am looking at it from afar. The Guzzi culture I see are enthusiasts who like traditional design, not the greatest performance numbers. That is a race with no end and one someone else will always win! (Supercharged H2R?) I think instead Guzzi might make better inroads attracting new (different?) riders with their classic naked frame designs. That is what attracts me, at least.

I am guessing reliability is somewhat similar to other Italian brands; that might be another thing that perhaps they are trying to improve. Ducati went through a phase circa 2007 where a massive ad campaign was launched specifically to address the issue that "Ducatis were expensive to own"... although that is true, and the engineering didn't catch up until around 2010. When I see a Guzzi at our shop it is mainly for simple things like an oil change or new tires, almost never do I see it in for a "cylinder head rebuild" like our Ducatis.

So perhaps these new designs are more to showcase the new, more reliable engineering of the motor? Although I am a bit disappointed to see so much plastic -- the Guzzi V-design is quite beautiful. And second only to the BMW boxer. ;D I too wish they would move to smaller displacement motors more reminiscent of the classics. I'm sure modern technology can make up for the lost cc's!

Time to run before people come after me with pitchforks for saying that.  :wife:
« Last Edit: January 07, 2015, 09:33:31 AM by Impulsive_Duc »

Offline Dean Rose

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Re: "Guzzi has lost it's way"
« Reply #46 on: January 07, 2015, 09:40:41 AM »
As someone new to the Guzzi brand, I am looking at it from afar. The Guzzi culture I see are enthusiasts who like traditional design, not the greatest performance numbers. That is a race with no end and one someone else will always win! (Supercharged H2R?) I think instead Guzzi might make better inroads attracting new (different?) riders with their classic naked frame designs. That is what attracts me, at least.

I am guessing reliability is somewhat similar to other Italian brands; that might be another thing that perhaps they are trying to improve. Ducati went through a phase circa 2007 where a massive ad campaign was launched specifically to address the issue that "Ducatis were expensive to own"... although that is true, and the engineering didn't catch up until around 2010. When I see a Guzzi at our shop it is mainly for simple things like an oil change or new tires, almost never do I see it in for a "cylinder head rebuild" like our Ducatis.

So perhaps these new designs are more to showcase the new, more reliable engineering of the motor? Although I am a bit disappointed to see so much plastic -- the Guzzi V-design is quite beautiful. And second only to the BMW boxer. ;D I too wish they would move to smaller displacement motors more reminiscent of the classics. I'm sure modern technology can make up for the lost cc's!

Time to run before people come after me with pitchforks for saying that.  :wife:



The damn things have been built like an anvil for many years. What's new except the FI systems and the 8V engines?

Maybe you haven't seen an Eldorado or an Ambassador swing in your way.

I just damn glad we have Moto Guzzi and I am lucky enough to own two of them. Wish I had discovered them back in the 70's.


Dean
« Last Edit: January 07, 2015, 10:14:38 AM by Dean Rose »
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Offline moltoguzzi

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Re: "Guzzi has lost it's way"
« Reply #47 on: January 07, 2015, 10:08:24 AM »
Piaggio have owned Guzzi for almost eleven years.

In that time they have killed the V11 Sport / LeMans line and killed the MGS-01, but they have not released anything as sporting to replace them.

No, the mile-long Griso doesn't count.  It's a standard.

The spine-frame bikes were the last link to the Guzzi racing heritage.  Piaggio broke that chain and it does not look like they care to fix it.

While Piaggio/Guzzi do make nice bikes, they don't currently have anything available in the dealership that interests me.

Sucks, too, as I really love the marque.

If they'd ever do something about the engine in the small block, or come out with a worthy successor to the V11 line, I'd be more motivated.  For now, I will just ride my Sport 1100 and enjoy its link to Guzzi's former glory.

Come on....give Piaggio a break. They have the dominant bike in WSBK, a V4 and the best naked version of it in the known universe. Why try and reinvent another sportbike just to call it GUZZI.

Offline rocker59

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Re: "Guzzi has lost it's way"
« Reply #48 on: January 07, 2015, 10:14:54 AM »
If they wanted to, why couldn't they bring it back?

"If they wanted to" is the key.  The MGS-01 was a victim of the "not invented here" phenomenon.

Though it would be a halo product for the brand, it would probably never sell very well.

Plus, its getting pretty old now, and I'm sure Miguel Galluzzi would like to exercise his talents on a new bike, rather than reissuing the chassis and styling of a preceding third party contributor...
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Offline rocker59

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Re: "Guzzi has lost it's way"
« Reply #49 on: January 07, 2015, 10:27:47 AM »
Come on....give Piaggio a break. They have the dominant bike in WSBK, a V4 and the best naked version of it in the known universe. Why try and reinvent another sportbike just to call it GUZZI.

Unfortunately, some people confuse superbike race bike with sport bike.  It's not an all or nothing deal,  World Superbike or nothing.  That's silly.

Most of the people who post in these threads asking for a Guzzi sportsbike are not asking them to create a superbike and field a WSBK team.  That's a whole 'nother thing, and you're right Piaggio have Aprilia for that game.

Sportsbike does not have to equal top tier world championship race bike.

My Sport 1100 was never a WSBK competitor, but there's no mistaking it's a sportsbike.  Though the Toni LeMans 850/1000 and Daytona 1000 were successfully campaigned in the 1980s in endurance championships by privateers, they were never World Superbikes.  No one thought they were.

If you want a comparative road-going bike, look at the BMW R1200S.  A sportsbike that was not, and was never intended to be, a World Superbike competitor.

Piaggio have done wonders for the Guzzi brand.  However, they did kill the V11 Sport / MGS-01 line shortly after taking over eleven years ago, and have yet to fill that void with a suitable sporting replacement.
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Offline LowRyter

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Re: "Guzzi has lost it's way"
« Reply #50 on: January 07, 2015, 11:39:16 AM »
You know, I don't see a problem with sharing engines with Aprilia.  I'd even take it a step further and see both Aprilia and have entries into Moto GP and/or WSBk.  Whether competing or in separate series. 

Here's a thought.  Aprilia brand is going to Moto GP.  No doubt the GP engine will have a much bigger bore (and shorter stroke) than the V4 in the Superbike Aprilia.  So if they marketed a  Guzzi "GP Production Commemorative", it could be made with a big bore version of the Aprilia production engine (but having more displacement by keeping the Aprilia stroke).  Two separate bikes from the same hardware for different buyers.

Remember, the engines are "corporate" engines.  Not Aprilia or Guzzi but Piaggio.  There could be more sharing among the brands but the models would be unique.  The Guzzi guys want a street oriented canyon carver, super sport tourer while the Aprilia guys want a track bike.   Just consider two versions of basic design, one marketed to some guy that 28 years old and the other guy that's 48. 
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Offline rocker59

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Re: "Guzzi has lost it's way"
« Reply #51 on: January 07, 2015, 11:45:25 AM »

The Guzzi guys want a street oriented canyon carver, super sport tourer while the Aprilia guys want a track bike.   

...one marketed to some guy that 28 years old and the other guy that's 48. 


That pretty much sums it up.   ;-T
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Offline jbell

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Re: "Guzzi has lost it's way"
« Reply #52 on: January 07, 2015, 01:37:45 PM »
Yeah, but people seem to really enjoy discussing it, judging by the thread responses.   So may it isn't so tired?

Lannis

Naw, we're just old and can't remember what we talked about last year.  Maybe part of Guzzi's "problem"?    :BEER:
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oldbike54

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Re: "Guzzi has lost it's way"
« Reply #53 on: January 07, 2015, 02:06:47 PM »
Naw, we're just old and can't remember what we talked about last year.  Maybe part of Guzzi's "problem"?    :BEER:

 :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
 We are getting like our grandfathers , telling the same old story over and over  ;D

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Offline Tobit

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Re: "Guzzi has lost it's way"
« Reply #54 on: January 07, 2015, 03:08:19 PM »
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
 We are getting like our grandfathers , telling the same old story over and over  ;D

  Dusty

Like my dearly departed old man.  A man of very few words, but damn, he sure used them a lot.

I for one would not mind at all seeing a "Piaggio" V4 under a Moto Guzzi tank decal. 

Speaking of the R1200S, that was one gorgeous bike I still lust over in silver and red.

http://www.stocklogic.com/R1200S/sideviewnomods.jpg

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Re: "Guzzi has lost it's way"
« Reply #55 on: January 07, 2015, 04:03:51 PM »
I would have no problem with Guzzi branching out and using motors from other divisions, the motor vechical is full of such cross polination.  I would, however, want them to hold on to there core old school style Ltwin, it's what gives Guzzi a real identity.

Not many people out side of the Guzzi world know about Guzzi, but those that do know it by its signiture vtwin, drop that and you might as well start from scratch.
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Offline youcanrunnaked

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Re: "Guzzi has lost it's way"
« Reply #56 on: January 08, 2015, 07:58:03 AM »
The article is pretty much a PR piece for Millepercento.  Why they felt the need to trash the modern Guzzis in order to elevate the MP bike is beyond me -- the latter are, after all, based on the former.  

Putting that aside, I think Piaggio is making a mistake with the current division between Aprilia (sport / racing) and Moto Guzzi (heritage / retro).  IMO, a little intra-company rivalry is exactly what Piaggio Group needs to wake up both Aprilia and Guzzi.  Remember the heyday of General Motors?  Chevy and Pontiac each trying to out-do the other in performance and value made for some great cars.  For all of Aprilia's recent racing success and Guzzi's refreshed line-up, Triumph, Ducati, BMW and KTM are leaving them in the dust.  The current strategy is not working, so why not?  
« Last Edit: January 09, 2015, 11:20:46 AM by youcanrunnaked »
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Offline sib

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Re: "Guzzi has lost it's way"
« Reply #57 on: January 08, 2015, 08:17:15 AM »
Reminds me of all the advice Apple constantly gets on what it has been doing wrong for the last 25 years, and what it needs to do differently right now to survive.  Amazing the company hasn't gone belly up.  Well, maybe this year will be Apple's last.
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oldbike54

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Re: "Guzzi has lost it's way"
« Reply #58 on: January 08, 2015, 09:04:12 AM »
The article is pretty much a PR piece for Millepercento.  Why they felt the need to trash the modern Guzzis in order to elevate the MP bike sis beyond me -- the latter are, after all, based on the former. 

Putting that aside, I think Piaggio is making a mistake with the current division between Aprilia (sport / racing) and Moto Guzzi (heritage / retro).  IMO, a little inter-company rivalry is exactly what Piaggio Group needs to wake up both Aprilia and Guzzi.  Remember the heyday of General Motors?  Chevy and Pontiac each trying to out-do the other in performance and value made for some great cars.  For all of Aprilia's recent racing success and Guzzi's refreshed line-up, Triumph, Ducati, BMW and KTM are leaving them in the dust.  The current strategy is not working, so why not? 

Uh Craig , you mean like the Fiero , or the Vega  ??? Considering that Pontiac AND Oldsmobile are long gone , not sure that is a great strategy  :D

  Dusty

Offline twhitaker

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Re: "Guzzi has lost it's way"
« Reply #59 on: January 08, 2015, 09:14:12 AM »
The heyday was a decade or two before that. I fondle remember the GTO, Chevelle, 442, Camaro, Firebird, and the Cutlass of the '60s.
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