Pics of my shot flat tappets at just 6400 miles!

[LBC Tenni]

I took my Griso to the dealer today for an inspection of the tappets. With just 6400 miles on the clock, two of them are already showing significant damage. Pics below. I know Pete and others have already said it, but I'll join the chorus. If you own a flat tappet 8v, take it for an inspection immediately. Do not keep riding and waiting for a noticeable problem. Mine have already lost enough DLC to cause damage, and it's still running like a top. Do it now. Don't wait.

[v65tt]

ouch that does not look good


What oil has been used?

[Vasco DG]

ouch that does not look good


What oil has been used?

Please don't even think about going there!

Luckily it looks like this will be covered, parts anyway which is the best one can hope for.

Pete

[molly]

Let's face it every single flat tappet 8v motor needs converting to rollers regardless of miles covered, age, oil used, location etc.
Anyone that intends to ride their bike is deluded if they don't get on with a conversion asap.

[Gliderjohn]

Quote from Molly:

Let's face it every single flat tappet 8v motor needs converting to rollers regardless of miles covered, age, oil used, location etc.
Anyone that intends to ride their bike is deluded if they don't get on with a conversion asap.

I can't argue except not everyone has $2,000 laying around to spend on what is basically a toy for most of us and a competent mechanic to do the work.
GliderJohn

[ohiorider]

Quote from Molly:
I can't argue except not everyone has $2,000 laying around to spend on what is basically a toy for most of us and a competent mechanic to do the work.
GliderJohn

Hear, hear!     Piaggio should bite the bullet and fix this thing, parts and labor.

[Perazzimx14]

Luckily it looks like this will be covered, parts anyway which is the best one can hope for.

Pete

The best part is Piaggio has a known problem and this ^^^ is the best you can hope for. Really makes you want to go out and support the brand.

[Wayne Orwig]

What oil has been used?

All of the ones that have failed were using synthetic oil.

[lucian]

I would just add that anyone taking their 8v for tappet inspection should request pic's of the tappets and cam noses. There have been dealers who have reportedly done the inspection and reassembled the cam boxes then sending the bike back into service with a clean bill of health, while providing no visual proof to the owner.  In short cover your arse as it is now apparent that there is now rhyme or reason to the failures in regards to use or mileage or service intervals. They are all doomed unfortunately. Also why wait when at such low mileage damage is evident and Piaggio will pay for a kit. I never thought mine would show any wear at 5000 miles but it did.

[sib]

All of the ones that have failed were using synthetic oil.

Difficult to interpret this piece of info in isolation.  Perhaps all the ones that didn't fail were also running synthetic oil.

[lucian]

It's not an oil issue, it is an inherently bad design issue, hence the redesigned roller top end. My 09 had three oil and filter changes in 5000 miles with agrip gp 10/60 and still went tits up. Procrastinating on this one will only risk catastrophic damage as some have found out. Even if piaggio paid parts, I would hate to see the labor and machine costs for a complete rebuild.    Any guesses?

[MGrego]

These had 3500 miles on them. Seems obvious the DLC was starting to come off.  I did the conversion --

[guzzisteve]

Having changed lots of these at all different mileage w/failed, I would say it is cause of poor quality control from the suppliers they(Guzzi) have.  I would like to see the ones in a high mileage roller motor and if this is THE fix.

[Vasco DG]

Quote from Molly:
I can't argue except not everyone has $2,000 laying around to spend on what is basically a toy for most of us and a competent mechanic to do the work.
GliderJohn

John, inspection as the vid I posted shows takes little time. If that is undertaken and wear is apparent a kit will be provided as long as the bike has a full service history. Installing an 'A' or 'B' kit takes only an hour or so more than the inspection once the motor is accessible on something like a Griso.

The models that will be more pricey are Norges and Stelvios, (And in the markets that have them 1200 Sports.) simply because there is more crap that has to be removed, and it has to be, to fit a 'C' kit.

Like it or not NO manufacturer is going to offer warranty on a machine that hasn't been maintained and the maintenance schedule is written in the warranty and service book! I'm sorry but while I would like everyone to get a free kit I don't in fact think it outrageous that the company ask for proof that their machine has been maintained to their standard.

For years I defended the design because I could see no detectable evidence of wear but I was hardly going to start stripping down top ends of people's engine's on a whim. Even when I did the first tappet swap on mine there was zero evidence of any wear at a mileage that was many times that of machines that were experiencing failures elsewhere! I also knew for a fact that the standard of maintenance in a lot of shops was at best dubious. I had no evidence to suggest it was a design problem. I now accept that I was wrong and, unlike many people, I have no problem with being wrong. One can't simply change one's opinions on a whim, you need evidence. Unfortunately that evidence is now in and waiting for it cost me an engine! Far better for others that they know so they can address the issue pre-emptively.

There are some things that really gall me about Piaggio's behaviour over the whole fiasco but in all honesty I don't think you would find any other company that would address the issue a whole lot differently. My advice now would be to get your Flattie checked at the earliest opportunity to minimise risk of further damage. It won't cost you a lot but it might save you a shitload down the track.

Pete

PS, Steve, I know of one roller Stelvio that is now approaching 200,000 Km with nothing more than 'Book' servicing. I also have yet to hear of a single failure of the roller top end in either a 1200 or 1400. If they are failing someone is doing a very good job of keeping it quiet.

[canuguzzi]

Having changed lots of these at all different mileage w/failed, I would say it is cause of poor quality control from the suppliers they(Guzzi) have.  I would like to see the ones in a high mileage roller motor and if this is THE fix.

Are you saying that were the flat tappet parts made correctly that the problem might not exist? That is contrary to a design problem but MGs problem regardless, they are selling the bikes.

If the problem exists in roller bikes given their different design, at what mileage would you be looking for the indications?

Proof would be in the inspection and pictures. It shouldn't be too hard to convince someone with a roller bike and the mileage at which even the start of the problem ocurrs to get an inspection.

Proof is better than a say so.

[lucian]

I think any problems with the roller design would have reared up by now. Change over in 2012, three years and no reported problems. My only concern is the tendency for the 8v mill to accumulate mayo in the rockers. I can see how this could in theory lead to increased wear due to oil compromise, or even corrosion during storage periods. I continue to run a o.c. baffle in cold weather to keep the oil temp up above 100c. I also plan on pulling the covers and cleaning out the moisture and giving things a shot of wd 40 before winter storage.

[canuguzzi]

Like it or not NO manufacturer is going to offer warranty on a machine that hasn't been maintained and the maintenance schedule is written in the warranty and service book!

There are some things that really gall me about Piaggio's behaviour over the whole fiasco but in all honesty I don't think you would find any other company that would address the issue a whole lot differently. My advice now would be to get your Flattie checked at the earliest opportunity to minimise risk of further damage. It won't cost you a lot but it might save you a shitload down the track.

Pete

Other motorcycle manufacturers have made good on problems, paid in full by warranty long after the warranty was out if date. Just because Moto Guzzi doesn't do it or it doesn't happen down under doesn't mean it is the way it is.

Suzuki paid for ECUs long after the warranty had expired for 2004&5 models of the DL1000, that in 2010!

No, the maintenance does not have to be written in the book in order to get warranty service. Dealer records of service or receipts for parts or supplies is also sufficient. If you want to say it must be written in the book where you are, fine but that doesn't mean it is like that everywhere.

Hopefully, those not living in your country don't rely on these blanket statement because that is not how it works everywhere.

If a failure started during the warranty period, in many places it must be repaired under warranty. To make these blanket statements means those believing them get screwed because they might wait rather than get service at MGs expense rather than their own, that isn't right.

It is incumbent upon every owner to find out how warranties work where they live, not based on opinion or interpretation of those who don't live there.

[Cool Runnings]

Scary stuff. 

[lucian]

Hey Pete , I think you caught a troll.

[guzzisteve]

Pete,     That's good to know about their fix for longevity.  I've got more lined up for inspection.

[canuguzzi]

Scary stuff. 

Not scary. In many states but not all, there is an implied warranty and other provisions of warranties imposed on manufacturers and those provisions are not binding in other states or countries.

This is why blanket statements should not be relied upon, especially in situations like this. Implied warranties can run as long as 4 years.

It behooves each person to find out exactly what they are entitled to without regard to what anyone else says and regardless of who they are or in what regard they are held.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with seeking what you paid for nor availing yourself of every remedy allowed.

Look it up, an implied warranty can be enforced if the failure can be shown it started or had to have started within the standard manufacturers warranty period or within a certain time limit. Even if the manufacturers warranty has expired, the implied warranty survives that.

It comes down to knowing your rights where you live. Rely on opinion and you will find yourself on the crappy end of the stick every time. Find out for yourself and be willing to do more than hang your head and turn tail and dig intonyour own pocket because you want to take one for the Gipper.

Those that are responsible for defects and such like nothing better than for owners to just walk away, dig into their own pockets to pay for repairs.

In the US, each state has government codes or laws that give you rights when buying a product, including a motorcycle. They exist because manufacturers have screwed over countless people, making and selling defective products, including some motorcycles.

Find out for yourself. Don't accept the first "no" or the second or third. No problem or defect ever got fixed in the absence of complaints.

[canuguzzi]

Hey Pete , I think you caught a troll.

What part of what I said isn't true?

Regardless, anyone reading the threads about this at least have the info to go find out for themselves what rights they have. They can choose to do what they want but at least because its what they want and not a follow the crowd thing.

That was my last comment on tappets. Its your money.

[brenwin]

[ :popcorn:e

PS, Steve, I know of one roller Stelvio that is now approaching 200,000 Km with nothing more than 'Book' servicing. I also have yet to hear of a single failure of the roller top end in either a 1200 or 1400. If they are failing someone is doing a very good job of keeping it quiet.
[/quote]

Good news Pete , Thanks .

[lucian]

If the problem exists in roller bikes given their different design, at what mileage would you be looking for the indications?

Proof would be in the inspection and pictures. It shouldn't be too hard to convince someone with a roller bike and the mileage at which even the start of the problem ocurrs to get an inspection.


Why should we be looking for a problem that isn't known to exist? I mean no offense N.P. just don't understand your lack of confidence in one of the oldest mc brands on the planet. These are fantastic bikes, perfect in every way ? not , but fantastic just the same. They acknowledged the flat tappet problem with an early recall, that didn't do it so they redesigned the whole timing system out of pocket and are providing the very best fix to even out of warranty owners with a very fair policy. What's not to like?

[lost]

While this subject has been beaten to death I have a question. I have a 2012 Norge that I believe was mfg in 2-2012. [Hard to read with a mirror.] I have heard that some early 2012 engines still had the flat tappets. So my question is: would a 2-2012 mfg date be considered mid year? I have had zero luck with my dealer. I took it in early for the 12,000 mile service so they could check it out. The service department refuses to believe there is a problem and ignored my request to check and tell me what I have. When I arrived to pick the bike up [ a 70 mile trip] they had forgotten to check. After I raised a fuss they took it in the back and after 15 minutes came out and said they thought it was a roller tappet but couldn't be sure. He thought it looked high to be a flat tappet. When I am able I will try the other dealer in my area to see if they are more helpful.

[normzone]

Latecomer with no skin in the game here, but as a QA guy in manufacturing, I'd like to read the Guzzi-authorized text of the recall notice. Does anybody have a copy handy ?

When words like defect, responsibility, failure, design, suppliers get used, it can be interesting to review the source material. I wonder what the design spec for the cam and lifter say, and how closely it was met by the supplier(s) of those components.

EDIT: I just came from the LeMans IV thread at http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=80870.0 and what was available regarding the front triple tree issue was a " circolare technica " or technical instruction. It's difficult to blame them for not providing the engineering change notice that would likely have contained all that same information AND the disposition of the previous revision parts.

Those dispositions may have been for Work in Process, Stock, material at Suppliers, and parts in the field.

And they would have been Scrap, Rework, Use As Is, or Use To Depletion, or something of that nature.

[cleatusj]

What part of what I said isn't true?

Regardless, anyone reading the threads about this at least have the info to go find out for themselves what rights they have.

Most of the time to understand those rights or to get them enforced takes an attorney/court. With less money and time with out ones bike the repairs can be completed.

[lucian]

While this subject has been beaten to death I have a question. I have a 2012 Norge that I believe was mfg in 2-2012. [Hard to read with a mirror.] I have heard that some early 2012 engines still had the flat tappets. So my question is: would a 2-2012 mfg date be considered mid year? I have had zero luck with my dealer. I took it in early for the 12,000 mile service so they could check it out. The service department refuses to believe there is a problem and ignored my request to check and tell me what I have. When I arrived to pick the bike up [ a 70 mile trip] they had forgotten to check. After I raised a fuss they took it in the back and after 15 minutes came out and said they thought it was a roller tappet but couldn't be sure. He thought it looked high to be a flat tappet. When I am able I will try the other dealer in my area to see if they are more helpful.

Only requires removing a valve cover to confirm rollers. I know Pete posted some pic's somewhere but if you look down through the lifter bores in the cam box with a flash light (directly under the rocker arm ends opposite the valve adjust end) you can see the rollers riding the cams

[tazio]

What the blazes IS a troll ??
NP seems to put a lot of thought into subjects he is passionate about.
Digs his Norge, and has HIS ideas of how Guzzi should conduct business.
YMMV...

[Vasco DG]

I'll post up a couple of pics again later this morning so people like 'Lost' can see what to look for to confirm one way or another whether a machine is flat or roller. It's a very easy check, most important thing is to be careful removing the plug caps.

Pete