Pics of my shot flat tappets at just 6400 miles!

[beetle]

Latecomer with no skin in the game here, but as a QA guy in manufacturing, I'd like to read the Guzzi-authorized text of the recall notice. Does anybody have a copy handy ?

It's not a recall. It's another 'technical instruction'. There was never a recall issued.

[Vasco DG]

Pete,     That's good to know about their fix for longevity.  I've got more lined up for inspection.

Good-o. Better for the customer and less work for us if we catch it early. So far, since introducing my 'Inspect 'em all' policy I haven't found a good 'un with over 5,000 km on the clock.

Pete

[beetle]

After I raised a fuss they took it in the back and after 15 minutes came out and said they thought it was a roller tappet but couldn't be sure. He thought it looked high to be a flat tappet. When I am able I will try the other dealer in my area to see if they are more helpful.

Morons. The difference is quite obvious to anyone who has ever worked on an 8V. Unless yours is the first 8V they've ever seen?
Also, as they seem to be sticking their heads in the sand re this issue, I would be looking elsewhere for service.

[Vasco DG]

Rollers



Flats.

[beetle]

 :1:  to what Molly said. Yes, it's a bad situation. Yes, Piaggio need a savage rogering for this. No, it's not your choice of effin oil. Yes, every single flattie will need the conversion sooner or later. Beating your chest and screeching about litigation won't help. Who you gunna sue? You can't sue your dealer, they're innocent in all this. Morons and idiots maybe, but innocent. Sue Piaggio? Knock yourself out. By the time the lawyers have raped your wallet, it would have been quicker and cheaper to just get the conversion done. "But I have rights!", you screech. No one gives a flying f*ck about your rights. Least of all, Piaggio. All you need is a full service history, or a documented service history and a good dealer to go to bat for you. You'll have to pay something, there's no escaping that. Just do it.

[lost]

Pete,

Thanks for the pictures. i am sure you are tired of hearing about this.

Jim

[guzzisteve]

This Bulletin will most likely turn into a deal like the Hydro motor, goes on & on w/bikes out there and owners haven't a clue there is a fix cause they don't go to the dealer for work or ask the dealer about campaigns that are open on their VIN.

[Vasco DG]

Pete,

Thanks for the pictures. i am sure you are tired of hearing about this.

Jim

Jim the only thing I'm tired of is having to deal with F*cked-up 8V's! Its such a lovely motor I hate that it has this curse and it really pisses me off that its not being widely publicised and addressed by many dealerships. Its not like checking is difficult or time consuming, even on the *Harder* models but the consequences of NOT finding out early can lead to much worse damage.

There are very good reasons to use a fully synthetic oil in the 8V but tappet wear is not one of them so the fact that every time someone new joins the conversation and says 'Oil!' or 'ZDDP!' it does get annoying as that has been covered umpteen times and it isn't the issue. There have also been numerous other theories put forward from the well researched to the downright crackpot but at the end of the day, at this point in time, none of that matters! What does matter is raising awareness and getting the problem addressed in the best and most expedient fashion before the shit really hits the fan. Flatulent barking about blame and responsibility won't change anything. Doing something before the damage becomes terminal is a far more sensible option.

Pete

[tazio]

Well Mr Pete, between your exhaustive efforts to edumacate us and having Guzzi Steve in
my back yard,
I'm taking the plunge to rollerize this bad momma~jomma of a Stelvio I enjoy so dearly.
Thank You both sincerely.

[ohiorider]

..... or like so many things in life, you simply vote with your wallet.  Unfortunately, that's where I am.  And don't like having to do it.

[Vasco DG]

Thing is Bob that as long as the kit can be claimed the cost isn't exorbitant! Sure with a small tank Stelvio that needs a 'C' kit you have to take all the tank covers and crap off and then the tank and then the plates that secure the heads to the frame before you can yank the heads off so that adds a bit of time but its still going to be cheap compared to a major service on many models from other brands assuming the work is performed correctly. I have a feeling there are a lot of machines out there that have never had their valves checked and adjusted for instance.

If you have to buy the kit? Yup, its a massive PITA and adds considerably to the cost. DAmn good argument for keeping service records eh?

pete

[Vagrant]

Honda finally recalled the 1800 Gold Wings for a faulty brake issues that has been happening for years. actually they issued it over a year ago but had no fix other than to bleed the system 6 times and it was common to have it happen again anyway. having the rear brake start working all by itself at 80MPH is a bit scary. it doesn't matter how old the bike is or if it was ever serviced they are fixing it for free now that they finally figured out how to.
of course what would you expect from a company who gives a 3 year unlimited mileage warranty with free roadside and unlimited towing miles for free with 4 more year being purchased for $500-$750 depending on the dealer.
just saying they want to keep selling bikes and cars for that matter.
if you screw up and build a POS but fix it you will be forgiven.

[Gliderjohn]

Another question. My 2011 Norge has 13,000+ miles. I will be having it at least inspected and regardless may just say the hell with it and go roller anyway. Let say however that I have it inspected and all looks good at this point, is the motor probably good here on out or if and how often do you do further inspections?
 BTW, thanks Pete for your input, you take a lot of time to try and help all us poor souls out.
GliderJohn

[Vasco DG]

hard to give an answer on that John as, as I said before, since instigating my 'Inspect 'em all' policy I haven't found one that wasn't showing signs of wear.

What I would do is ask for photo's to be taken of the tappet faces and cam nose circles. there is no such thing as *Acceptable wear*! Any missing DLC, no matter how small in area, indicates that the tappets and soon the cams are 'Donald Ducked'.

I think the reason I was lulled into a false sense of security was that my valve clearances never changed. It wasn't until the wear was well advanced that the clearances began to open up. The only other thing I can remember as being noticeable is that my oil started to become much more discoloured at about 30,000km. I didn't think much of it simply assuming that there was slightly more blow-by as the rings aged but with the wonder of hindsight I think it may of portended the denouement of the DLC.

pete

[Wayne Orwig]

Difficult to interpret this piece of info in isolation.  Perhaps all the ones that didn't fail were also running synthetic oil.

My 'synthetic oil' comment was to entertain.

It is obviously a material/design issue.

[Yo Man]

Since failure of the flat tappet motor is a certainty because of poor design or poor materials used or poor quality control, and nothing to do with whether or not the bike was maintained properly, why would there be a requirement to provide a maintenance history in order to qualify for replacement parts? The original parts are defective, they will fail because they are defective whether or not adequate maintenance is done. Maintenance is not the issue here, but it is being used against the owners of flat tappet motors to screw them out of the compensation they deserve.

[Vasco DG]

Standard issue corporate policy. Doesn't mean its fair or I like it but it can and will be argued that the failure *may* be down to the service schedule not being followed.

Pete

[rboe]

Another question. My 2011 Norge has 13,000+ miles. I will be having it at least inspected and regardless may just say the hell with it and go roller anyway. Let say however that I have it inspected and all looks good at this point, is the motor probably good here on out or if and how often do you do further inspections?
 BTW, thanks Pete for your input, you take a lot of time to try and help all us poor souls out.
GliderJohn

Make sure the dealer takes pictures of the tappet surfaces AND submits them to Piaggio, no matter what their personal opinion of the matter is. My mechanic thought they looked fine - normal wear and tear - but he took the pictures and upon my request submitted a claim to Piaggio which they accepted. My bike is now rollerized.

You have the collective experience from input here and on grisoghetto.com, good chance he only has the experience from his shop - unless he checks the forums. Signal to noise ratio is typically not good on forums so I'd be surprised if he did. So take advantage of us. 

[JeffOlson]

Scary stuff. 

If I remember correctly, you have a 2014 Norge. Your Norge has roller tappets, not the problematic flat tappets.

[Cool Runnings]

If I remember correctly, you have a 2014 Norge. Your Norge has roller tappets, not the problematic flat tappets.

I feel for you guy's with the 'flat tappet 8V's.

[molly]

While this subject has been beaten to death I have a question. I have a 2012 Norge that I believe was mfg in 2-2012. [Hard to read with a mirror.] I have heard that some early 2012 engines still had the flat tappets. So my question is: would a 2-2012 mfg date be considered mid year? I have had zero luck with my dealer. I took it in early for the 12,000 mile service so they could check it out. The service department refuses to believe there is a problem and ignored my request to check and tell me what I have. When I arrived to pick the bike up [ a 70 mile trip] they had forgotten to check. After I raised a fuss they took it in the back and after 15 minutes came out and said they thought it was a roller tappet but couldn't be sure. He thought it looked high to be a flat tappet. When I am able I will try the other dealer in my area to see if they are more helpful.

I have mentioned this before but some dealers are in denial about the issue. To me they are either lying through their teeth or are incompetent (don't know how to do the job) or the factory is telling them there is no problem with the design if the bike is maintained correctly.
All evidence now points to a design fault that will inevitably lead to failure. If there is any justice the factory should communicate this to it's dealers and authorise the replacement of the parts. But I bet there is no hope of that now.

[rboe]

Roller tappets were not installed until much later in the year. Mid-summer if memory serves. If you pull the valve covered your self and compare to the photo's Pete has supplied it's pretty easy to tell. My money is on flat for you. Sorry.

Pete has also documented how to remove the tappet assembly, then the cam carrier so you can take pictures of the tappets and submit the results to Piaggio. At this point I can't think of any good reason to support your current dealer. Good chance there is an independent shop around that can pull the bits for you too. Once apart; I'd just leave it that way until the replacement bits arrive.

[Cool Runnings]

Roller tappets were not installed until much later in the year. Mid-summer if memory serves. If you pull the valve covered your self and compare to the photo's Pete has supplied it's pretty easy to tell. My money is on flat for you. Sorry.

Pete has also documented how to remove the tappet assembly, then the cam carrier so you can take pictures of the tappets and submit the results to Piaggio. At this point I can't think of any good reason to support your current dealer. Good chance there is an independent shop around that can pull the bits for you too. Once apart; I'd just leave it that way until the replacement bits arrive.

Which year?

[Vasco DG]

Which year?

2012

[Cool Runnings]

2012

Thanks.

[jim mac]

will Piaggio accept a report on the condition from a non Guzzi shop ?  there is only one Guzzi dealer in Scotland and I wouldn't let them change  bulb for me based on past experience

[pyoungbl]

My Stelvio is a '12, last 6  on the VIN are 111746.  The bike was sold 8/12 so late in the sales year.  It had flat tappets.  Any '12 that had rollers must have been made just before the traditional August vacation month!

FWIW, Piaggio has told my 'dealer' that it will not reimburse me (or the dealer) for the roller kit.  All my tappets showed wear, the cams are burned a bit.  I have written directly to Piaggio NA to appeal this decision.  Wish me luck.

Peter Y.

[lost]

Roller tappets were not installed until much later in the year. Mid-summer if memory serves. If you pull the valve covered your self and compare to the photo's Pete has supplied it's pretty easy to tell. My money is on flat for you. Sorry.

Pete has also documented how to remove the tappet assembly, then the cam carrier so you can take pictures of the tappets and submit the results to Piaggio. At this point I can't think of any good reason to support your current dealer. Good chance there is an independent shop around that can pull the bits for you too. Once apart; I'd just leave it that way until the replacement bits arrive.

Thanks for the information. I didn't mean to get everyone all riled up again about this subject. I will have to pick a warmer day and take a look for myself.

Jim

[Vasco DG]

will Piaggio accept a report on the condition from a non Guzzi shop ?  there is only one Guzzi dealer in Scotland and I wouldn't let them change  bulb for me based on past experience

I don't know what the situation is in the UK. From what I've heard the UK importer seems to be particularly obtuse in regard to its customer base.

Pete

[lucky phil]

I don't in fact think it outrageous that the company ask for proof that their machine has been maintained to their standard.

Sorry to disagree on this one Pete but when the failure is totally unrelated to the servicing (when, where, how, mileage intervals or what oil is used) as has been demonstratted here by bikes that have actually been over serviced with the correct oil then Piaggio need to man up and do a technical update without question. Its is now proved that its not a case of IF but WHEN and servicing is totally irrelivent.
My Ducati 1198S was recalled for R/H Ohlins fork leg replacement due to a manufacturing defect that meant if the pinch bolts were overtorqued the lower would crack. No proof of anything required in the way of dealer only servicing or torque wrenches used just straight up replacement. As it should be.
Ciao