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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: wheaties on January 24, 2018, 09:20:06 AM
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My California came with a small steering damper, left hand side, attaching just below the tank. When it started bleeding fluid, we took it off. I was told you can't get a factory replacement---unobtainable. So...
What does it really do? Why is it there? Was it put on by Moto Guzzi to improve performance in crosswinds? ... inspire confidence in prospective buyers? ...prevent a tank slapper? ...satisfy their insurance company? What?
MG Cycle offers a replacement:
http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=197_199&products_id=115 (http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=197_199&products_id=115)
What say ye wise and noble Guzzisti?
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:thumb: I'm curious to hear thoughts on it.
I think we've discussed it before, but it was a while ago.
I'll say that I played with the adjustment with the one that was on the Jackal early on and felt absolutely no effect.
I came to the conclusion is was already knackered and left it there/left it alone the rest of the time I had the bike.
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Started bleeding fuel? Strange, I always was under the impression that the oem damper was purely mechanical and no hydraulics (oil) were involved. I had a frightening speed wobble with my Cali once and immediately had the original damper replaced with a hydraulic one, which was a lot better. The original damper does not do much, unless preventing you from proper steering if too tight in the beginning and wearing down soon afterwards. :evil:
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It was bleeding fluid, but not fuel. Just a small drip onto the header pipe, no worries.
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It was bleeding fluid, but not fuel. Just a small drip onto the header pipe, no worries.
Oops, meant fluid of course, not fuel :shocked: :wink:
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I answered this in the "Maybe 750cc is Adequate..." thread, but basically I said the same as Frans. The stock unit is a friction variant. If your California has fuel injection and the damper was leaking, it wasn't original.
Californias with large windshields will benefit from a decent hydraulic steering damper. Passing trucks, riding in crosswinds, and riding grooved pavement can initiate oscillations that a good damper can limit. The stock damper is just a bit of sporty bling that marketers used to separate the Cali from other power-cruisers. As usual, if you want great performance you have to pay for it...
(http://image.ibb.co/gCcFYb/IMG_2797.jpg)
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Thanks for the photo Sheepdog. And the comment in the other thread. Some argue it does absolutely nothing, so I thought I'd ask again.
As for mine, it was original when I bought the bike new. "Sebac" sounds right, we tossed it. I thought it was dripping something, and the dripping stopped when we removed it. It has no fluid of it's own?
I can surely see value in something that might save my bacon in certain circumstances.
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My VII Sport came with a fairly good hydraulic damper, I tried it out once, was fine at speed but scared the goodness out of me when I pulled into a parking lot, I never used it after that.
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The Sebac units are friction-controlled and contain no fluid, but grease and water often combine with the friction material as it wears and can ooze out. My '60 BMW R-60 had a friction damper that was equally as useless. If you encounter steering instability in conditions that you commonly ride in, I would suggest a hydraulic steering damper. The difference over the Sebac item is substantial...like the difference between a modern hydraulic fork and a friction-damped girder.
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The Sebac units are friction-controlled and contain no fluid, but grease and water often combine with the friction material as it wears and can ooze out. My '60 BMW R-60 had a friction damper that was equally as useless. If you encounter steering instability in conditions that you commonly ride in, I would suggest a hydraulic steering damper. The difference over the Sebac item is substantial...like the difference between a modern hydraulic fork and a friction-damped girder.
That plus the stock damper can be dangerous when it wears and wants to bind. Pretty cheesy setup. The other thing is friction dampers have the greatest resistance when not moving. Hydraulic dampers increase resistance the faster they move. I agree if you have a flat police style fairing use a damper, otherwise not really needed. Never had an issue with wobble on a Tonti framed bike even flat out in 5th with no damper.
Pete
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That plus the stock damper can be dangerous when it wears and wants to bind. Pretty cheesy setup. The other thing is friction dampers have the greatest resistance when not moving. Hydraulic dampers increase resistance the faster they move. I agree if you have a flat police style fairing use a damper, otherwise not really needed. Never had an issue with wobble on a Tonti framed bike even flat out in 5th with no damper.
Pete
I installed a hydraulic damper on the Cali 2 modified into a cafe bike....It was a requirement for running at the land speed track...On the street with the damper set on the lowest setting I noticed the bike wanted to fall into slow speed turns...Removed the damper and like Pete says above, not needed riding fast even on crappy pavement...
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For most, not needed as long as your steering neck bearings are in good shape and adjusted. Load up your Cali for touring, go fast 75+ uphill into a turn. You'll wish the damper worked. :shocked: I think I was at 90 along the Snake River.
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I answered this in the "Maybe 750cc is Adequate..." thread, but basically I said the same as Frans. The stock unit is a friction variant. If your California has fuel injection and the damper was leaking, it wasn't original.
Californias with large windshields will benefit from a decent hydraulic steering damper. Passing trucks, riding in crosswinds, and riding grooved pavement can initiate oscillations that a good damper can limit. The stock damper is just a bit of sporty bling that marketers used to separate the Cali from other power-cruisers. As usual, if you want great performance you have to pay for it...
I wonder if you can share which model did you get, SDK or SDR? How hard is it to install and properly adjust?
I have 2009 California Vintage (10,000 km) and experience small vibrations/oscillations on the handlebar when above 110 kph. In your opinion SDR model will help to reduce/eliminate the problem. I put new set of tires last August and front wheel was re-balanced twice by dealer but the problem persists. Thanks.
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I wonder if you can share which model did you get, SDK or SDR? How hard is it to install and properly adjust?
I have 2009 California Vintage (10,000 km) and experience small vibrations/oscillations on the handlebar when above 110 kph. In your opinion SDR model will help to reduce/eliminate the problem. I put new set of tires last August and front wheel was re-balanced twice by dealer but the problem persists. Thanks.
That big windshield has nearly as much leverage on the forks as the bike�s handlebars. The buffeting air from trucks or crosswinds create unintended steering inputs that can cycle in increasingly broader oscillations that can escalate into a tank slapper. At the least this is disconcerting, but at its worst it can be very dangerous. An unevenly installed windshield or an overloaded top case can initiate these wobbles, also.
Before purchasing a new damper, have your front wheel checked for proper runout. The flange of my bike�s front wheel was bent out a bit by a hamfisted tire installer (me) and I had all manner of steering problems until I got it straightened. Wheel assemblies with excessive runout will still balance, so be sure to look for a part of the rim that passes closer to a fixed point (like a fender stay) than the rest of the wheel. Be sure to check both the left and right sides.
I�m not sure which model Matris damper I purchased. It was the only one offered by MG Cycle. I believe it is the SDK. The install was a bit of an adventure, as the shaft of the damper was a little long for the bracketry provided with my Vintage, causing it to bump the valve cover at full lock. I created more space by inserting a spacer on the bracket under the fuel tank and drilling out the aluminum end knob and moving it forward about 25mm. The resulting revised angle just misses the cover.
Adjustments are made by turning the aluminum knob on the damper shaft. Start off by adjusting it until you feel mild resistance to steering input. This will likely take care of most wobbles without having a negative effect on low-speed steering. Always make adjustments while stopped to ensure the steering will not be excessively slowed for low speed riding. When adjusting, each level of damping selected will be accompanied by a tactile click. There are 13 damping levels available and the unit is rebuildable.
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That big windshield has nearly as much leverage on the forks as the bike�s handlebars. The buffeting air from trucks or crosswinds create unintended steering inputs that can cycle in increasingly broader oscillations that can escalate into a tank slapper. At the least this is disconcerting, but at its worst it can be very dangerous. An unevenly installed windshield or an overloaded top case can initiate these wobbles, also.
Before purchasing a new damper, have your front wheel checked for proper runout. The flange of my bike�s front wheel was bent out a bit by a hamfisted tire installer (me) and I had all manner of steering problems until I got it straightened. Wheel assemblies with excessive runout will still balance, so be sure to look for a part of the rim that passes closer to a fixed point (like a fender stay) than the rest of the wheel. Be sure to check both the left and right sides.
I�m not sure which model Matris damper I purchased. It was the only one offered by MG Cycle. I believe it is the SDK. The install was a bit of an adventure, as the shaft of the damper was a little long for the bracketry provided with my Vintage, causing it to bump the valve cover at full lock. I created more space by inserting a spacer on the bracket under the fuel tank and drilling out the aluminum end knob and moving it forward about 25mm. The resulting revised angle just misses the cover.
Adjustments are made by turning the aluminum knob on the damper shaft. Start off by adjusting it until you feel mild resistance to steering input. This will likely take care of most wobbles without having a negative effect on low-speed steering. Always make adjustments while stopped to ensure the steering will not be excessively slowed for low speed riding. When adjusting, each level of damping selected will be accompanied by a tactile click. There are 13 damping levels available and the unit is rebuildable.
Thank you very much for details. I have OEM windshield on my bike and before the change of tires the problem was not as noticable as it is now. I will check the rim on both sides and see if it is bend. You are right MG Cycle list only SDK model but GuzziTech sells both, SDK and SDR. I think I will go with SDR model since it has a “SpeedSensitive” system which reacts to sudden movements by automatically increasing damping force without restricting movement at slow speeds. Again, thanks a lot!
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You are welcome. The SDR variant sounds like a nice upgrade...
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When I got my EV, I fiddled with the damper and it made no difference where I set it, so I figured it was shot, but I've never felt the need for it anyways, no matter how spirited I do or don't ride it.
Now the damper on my Sporti, that sucker works TOO well when set to stiff. The first time I adjusted it shortly after I brought it home, I figured I'd try it for the heck of it, but wasn't expecting anything since the damper on my EV was useless. Well, when I set off and attempted to make my first turn in the neighborhood, a slow right-angle turn, I nearly soiled my drawers as the bike forcefully continued straight as I leaned right, practically sending both of us on our side! WHOOPS! But hey, the damper actually works lol. I adjusted it back to its original setting and haven't touched it since.
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The oem friction dampers can be rebuilt with a piece of leather.
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The oem friction dampers can be rebuilt with a piece of leather.
Can you further explain this procedure please as I have an 07 calvin that has the damper. As others has pointed out I have turned this thing every way but loose and can tell no difference. I’ve also ridden dozens of bikes of many brands, sizes, types, in all conditions, speeds and road conditions with no little shock attached and never any tank slapping issues. However it’s there so I may need to rebuild it some day.
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My experience with damper on the EV is it has more "heft" at low speeds, like in a parking lot. When I reduced the friction, it felt "floppy" at low speeds. I couldn't tell any difference at speed on the road.
Actually, it works well to give the front end some low speed "heft". I think it works well for that purpose.
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I have OEM windshield on my bike and before the change of tires the problem was not as noticable as it is now.
I had my frightening wobble after a tyre change too. I must say I had the front tyre switched from 120 to 110 for quicker steering, ignoring the fact that a smaller front tyre and 2 different makes (front and back) might not be ideal. And it steered quicker allright :evil:
So, what the others say: Have the balance of your front wheel checked, (make sure you have the right tyre size for the rim!), check bearings and get a proper hydraulic damper.
Link to picture of the one I had installed in 2004 below....
https://www.dropbox.com/s/0d3gzyh3f4eh674/stuurdemper.jpg?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/0d3gzyh3f4eh674/stuurdemper.jpg?dl=0)
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Can you further explain this procedure please as I have an 07 calvin that has the damper. As others has pointed out I have turned this thing every way but loose and can tell no difference. I�ve also ridden dozens of bikes of many brands, sizes, types, in all conditions, speeds and road conditions with no little shock attached and never any tank slapping issues. However it�s there so I may need to rebuild it some day.
Rod in Honolulu rebuilt one on his Cali III. Don't know if it's the Sebac one. Probably is. He stuck it in a vise with a rag around it and unscrewed it. Gutted the internals and replaced with a small piece of leather. It provided enough friction that it work on reassembly.
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I put a Matris damper on my Bassa years ago. I like it and its usually on its lowest setting, even with a sidecar. when its super windy I tighten it up. I was running the freeway and had it tightened up. I took an exit and rolled into a town, couldn't figure out why I couldn't turn until I realized the damper was adjusted very tight. it didn't feel tight at 80+ mph. I like the adjustability of a hydraulic damper.
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my calvin came with a leaky hydraulic damper. not the friction damper I had on my old '83 Lemans 3.
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If your bike is being displaced sideways by a gust of wind, (let's say from the left), the bike will initially want to fall to the right, but the handlebars will move imperceptibly to balance the forces and steady the bike.
I do struggle a bit to see how reducing the ability of the forks to react to displacements (ie, use of dampers), will enhance crosswind stability.
A damper's function is to reduce any instability in the mass of the headstock and front end that is being induced by steering inputs, but if dynamic wobbles are spoiling your day, then it's instability about the centre of mass issue, producing oscillatory displacements that increase in amplitude to eventual disaster.
Remember the Harley guy a few weeks back ?
Attempting to crush the symptoms of instability with a damper, is masking the real issue.
In addition..
Hydraulic dampers increase resistance proportional to velocity of the piston in the fluid, ( low speed of stroke= low resistance) and vice versa.
Friction dampers are the opposite, once limiting friction is reached, and "stiction" is overcome, the dampers discs "crack" and movement is allowed, further movement of the discs becomes easier, this is opposite to what's required. That's why there was an elongation in the hole where the bottom plate mounted to the frame, it allows for that minute amount of oscillation that the steering must have for dynamic stability before the damper comes into play.
Friction ones are garbage..
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Thank you very much for details. I have OEM windshield on my bike and before the change of tires the problem was not as noticable as it is now. I will check the rim on both sides and see if it is bend. You are right MG Cycle list only SDK model but GuzziTech sells both, SDK and SDR. I think I will go with SDR model since it has a �SpeedSensitive� system which reacts to sudden movements by automatically increasing damping force without restricting movement at slow speeds. Again, thanks a lot!
I received the Matris SDR dumper today and will try to install over the weekend. I'm not in the rush to install since we still have a winter in Toronto and won't be riding my bikes for another couple months. Went to the garage this evening and examine the old dumper on the bike and noticed the back end of the rod is covered in oil. It is not like oil is dripping but when touched my fingers got really wet/slippery. Wonder if this normal or is it indication the dumper is cooked? Another thing I notice the dumper is not tighten properly to the frame, when moving dumper up and down there is noticeable movement. Looks like this alone could contribute to the problem I experience.
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I had a 2000 Jackal for 16 yrs, put over 200,000mi on it, traded it in on my current 2016 Roamer. I removed the steering damper on my Jackal early on, don’t really remember exact mileage, never missed it or knew what it was supposed to do.
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I received the Matris SDR dumper today and will try to install over the weekend. I'm not in the rush to install since we still have a winter in Toronto and won't be riding my bikes for another couple months. Went to the garage this evening and examine the old dumper on the bike and noticed the back end of the rod is covered in oil. It is not like oil is dripping but when touched my fingers got really wet/slippery. Wonder if this normal or is it indication the dumper is cooked? Another thing I notice the dumper is not tighten properly to the frame, when moving dumper up and down there is noticeable movement. Looks like this alone could contribute to the problem I experience.
Remember to take into account j.r.r. there there should always be a small degree of undamped movement available from centre, to allow for the minute oscillations of the headstock, required for normal stability in the bike.
We're this not the case, even a few thou' movement would have to act against the dampening effect and your bike would steer like the Exxon Valdeez, (if it doesn't already).
A useful experiment is to take a bicycle and on a (preferably) grass surface, run beside it and give it a shove.
If you let it go nicely upright, it will continue on it's own happily countersteering it's way toward oblivion, just before it crashes it's guts out, you'll see the amplitude of the oscillations increase to the point where the forces required to stay upright are no longer sufficient, and the whole shooting match goes arse up!
Suffice to say, that these oscillations that are so visible in the dying stages of motion, are always present at higher speeds, but too small in amplitude to be readily visible, they must however, be free to occur unhindered.
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My 07 calvin only had 5k miles on it when I got it so the stabilizer was like new and function properly. I did the research as to what it’s job was. For an afternoon I took the bike down the same curvey road a dozen times at the same speed, increasing the resistance, supposedly, each pass. Personally, I could not tell any difference at all. So, I just adjusted it to the middle where it’s been for the last two years. If it were suddenly gone tomorrow, I don’t think I would be able to tell any deference in the handling of the Calvin.
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My 07 calvin only had 5k miles on it when I got it so the stabilizer was like new and function properly. I did the research as to what it�s job was. For an afternoon I took the bike down the same curvey road a dozen times at the same speed, increasing the resistance, supposedly, each pass. Personally, I could not tell any difference at all. So, I just adjusted it to the middle where it�s been for the last two years. If it were suddenly gone tomorrow, I don�t think I would be able to tell any deference in the handling of the Calvin.
At speed, you won't tell the difference because the 'bars are able to oscillate through the small deflections required, even though the damper is present.
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My impression of steering dampers is they work in the upper ten percent of a bikes capabilities, to prevent increasing frequency and duration of front wheel oscillations
They only work when you've gone full throttle in a turn, a dog attacks your front crashbar from his front porch setting off a tank slapper....the bars snap back and forth so fast it tears the bars out of your hands
With...the tank slapper slows and stops it's oscillating with a chance to recover
Without...spit you off into the bushes in a different direction
There was a lot of that tank slapper crap (even without a dog attack) 60-70s when dinosaurs roamed the earth.
Yes they effect straight line, slow parking lot and the highway straight but my impression that is secondary. They don't do nothing until your about to be killed from a violent wrist breaking tank slapper
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YouTube video on where I think steering dampers work to save your a$$...
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TpeNWxHF6uI
Tank slappers from wheelies don't count, that's a self induced tank slapper...watch the last guy in the video, #34 from a TT...
It's a compromise...too tight a damper makes it unrideable at slow speeds, too loose wouldn't stop a tank slapper...everywher e in between you don't notice it