Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: spmoto on October 24, 2017, 04:46:28 PM
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I would like to join just one good Ducati forum, you know, like Wildguzzi. Specifically, I'd like to learn more about the ST3. If there are any ST3 owners on here I'd appreciate your impressions, particularly with regard to it's two-up capabilities and passenger comfort. My wife and I are 65 and 68 respectively and are very comfortable on our '91 Lemans but would like something with better wind protection and some bags.
Thanks,
Steve M
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P.S. The Norge and Stelvio are just too tall and heavy.
SM
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search "Ducati.MS" . Some very experienced folks there. Covers every model from the very first. I bought a '00 M900S about 6 months ago and they helped me get it sorted, now an excellent bike.
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A ST3 is considered to be the best of the lot by many. I had an ST2. Nice SPORT touring bike. If it were me, I'd look at a Norge instead. <shrug> Your wife will prefer the cushy ride in comparison. I wouldn't consider the maintenance hassle of the ST4.
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Appreciate the feedback Chuck, but... The Norge is up on the ST by 100+ lbs. ,and, having had a Stelvio, I just really don't like that motor. It sounds like a bucket of rocks and runs like crap out of the box. Guzzidiag etc. be damned (sorry Pete Roper et.al.). I just don't have the patience nor the aptitude for such, nor do I think it should be necessary.
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Absolutely no snark intended , but if you aren't mechanically inclined , a Ducati probably isn't a good choice .
Dusty
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Ducati.ms
I'm over there since 2013, same username ad here.
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I've been looking for an affordable norge and ended up buying an st3. I've only put a few hundred miles on it but so far so good. It definitely is more sport than touring !
It handles great, feels light at all times and has a LOT of power, even compared to my griso.
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Hey Dusty, no offense taken. I've owned Guzzi's for 35+ years so it's not a question of Mechanical inclination. I guess I'm just one of the rare few that doesn't care for the 4V motors. I can turn a wrench, and enjoy it, but, my laptop is not my friend when it comes to tuning. To me, the CARC bikes were a necessary evolution, but, very poorly executed and delivered. Not bashing, just expressing my opinion and frustration. I really wanted to like these bikes, especially the Stelvio.
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dsrdave,
I notice there's a '91 LM in your gaggle. Rocker 59's via Chuck in Indiana if I'm correct. I also have a'91 (one of only 17 imported that year) and love it. How would you compare the ST3 to the LM. I know they're separated by 25 years but would appreciate your thoughts. Do you ride two-up at all? If so, how does your passenger like the ST vs. LM?
Thanks,
SM
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Ducati.ms
I'm over there since 2013, same username ad here.
Ditto
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Ditto
Dawns that maybe I am the only WG'er who has seen your 916 Leroy . Got a pic to show these
guys ? Cool bike .
Dusty
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I very seldom ride 2-up. But that was one reason to get a touring bike as I'd like to take a passenger along sometimes. I also like the LM, a LOT. But comparing it to the st3 is apples to oranges in my opinion. I like my tonti bikes but 25 years can't be ignored. I find myself riding my newer bikes more an more. They just work better in all areas!! Push the button an go. To me the st3 is closer to the injected spine frame bikes but quieter, lighter an much more powerful. The other day I grabbed a bit too much throttle an wow, the front wheel came up an I was 16yr old again, lol.
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ducati.org has a forum with traffic & a lot of good info.
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Absolutely no snark intended , but if you aren't mechanically inclined , a Ducati probably isn't a good choice .
Dusty
If your talking about bevel head Ducati's I might agree. Anything later and I don't agree at all. Heck my 900ss is easier to work on than my DL650
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I've been looking for an affordable norge and ended up buying an st3. I've only put a few hundred miles on it but so far so good. It definitely is more sport than touring !
It handles great, feels light at all times and has a LOT of power, even compared to my griso.
I sold my ST4S to get my V7ii. Nothing wrong with it- I just wasn't into the comfy touring bagger thing. Sold it to my buddy and he's put another 40,000 km on it. When you buy a used one, you will basically do 1 good valve clearance check and adjustment. If you do it properly, you won't need to do it on the broken in engine for many, many miles. Mine had quality suspension (ST4S) and was as solid a bike as I have ever owned. Mine was a 2003, but the 2004+ have much better ergos. You will probably find more ST4S to be available, but don't be afraid of the 4 valve. If it's clean and the price is right go for it.
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If your talking about bevel head Ducati's I might agree. Anything later and I don't agree at all. Heck my 900ss is easier to work on than my DL650
Yup, my 96 900M requires a bit of patience for some stuff but generally straightforward...S tories of difficult maintenance is passed on by by those with little mechanical ability or understanding...
I'm on the Ducati MS and Ducati Monster Forum, different screen names than here...Like any forum, the help you get depends on who answers the posts and your own understanding of the situation...Step one is always the same, ignore all the BS and wives tales ....
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dsrdave,
I notice there's a '91 LM in your gaggle. Rocker 59's via Chuck in Indiana if I'm correct. I also have a'91 (one of only 17 imported that year) and love it. How would you compare the ST3 to the LM. I know they're separated by 25 years but would appreciate your thoughts. Do you ride two-up at all? If so, how does your passenger like the ST vs. LM?
Thanks,
SM
Correct. You've obviously been paying attention. :smiley: Dorcia liked the LM considerably better than the ST2. It's hard to compare the bikes, though.. they are *completely* different. The LM is an elemental "freight train" with relaxed ergos compared to the "Sport bike with bags" Duck. The Duck will out perform the LM everywhere.. handling, braking, acceleration, as you might imagine.
I, personally, have made my choice. Gimme a Guzzi. :wink:
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Correct. You've obviously been paying attention. :smiley: Dorcia liked the LM considerably better than the ST2. It's hard to compare the bikes, though.. they are *completely* different. The LM is an elemental "freight train" with relaxed ergos compared to the "Sport bike with bags" Duck. The Duck will out perform the LM everywhere.. handling, braking, acceleration, as you might imagine.
I, personally, have made my choice. Gimme a Guzzi. :wink:
Good points - the ST2s and early ST4/ST4s had a fairly aggressive seating position. They needed bar risers and a better seat to be acceptable. Did that to mine and it was fine. ST3s and later ST4S, 2004+ have the ergos sorted but i think the seats are still junk. i bought a Sargent ($450) for mine and it was great.
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Good points - the ST2s and early ST4/ST4s had a fairly aggressive seating position. They needed bar risers and a better seat to be acceptable. Did that to mine and it was fine. ST3s and later ST4S, 2004+ have the ergos sorted but i think the seats are still junk. i bought a Sargent ($450) for mine and it was great.
I used to make a bolt on for the early ST2/ST4 out of billet that allowed the use of tubular bars. You could put apes on it if you wanted.. :evil:
My manufacturers liability carrier said, "You are making something that affects the steering of a motorcycle??" "Stop that." :smiley:
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Funny how we progressed from a gentle warning about maintenance on a motorcycle brand to a full blown "they are the greatest most reliable bikes ever built and if you can't see that ..." :laugh:
Dusty
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Well, Dusty.. my ST2 *was* quite reliable. I only had it for 12K miles, though.. so I don't know how well it would have done in the long run. Maintenance mostly involved cleaning and lubing the chain every 300 freekin miles :evil: and the normal fluid and tire thingys. Getting the plastic off was a PITA. Did I mention Dorcia didn't particularly like the pillion seat? That, and the ergos made it go away.
I still wouldn't particularly like working on it, and really can't work on the new ones. <shrug> Gimme a Guzzi.. :smiley:
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Funny how we progressed from a gentle warning about maintenance on a motorcycle brand to a full blown "they are the greatest most reliable bikes ever built and if you can't see that ..." :laugh:
Dusty
Was it a gentle warning or an opinion?
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Was it a gentle warning or an opinion?
Both . Look , even Chuck said basically the same thing . Ducatis are cool , but if you can't do your own mechanical stuff they can be expensive .
Dusty
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Ducati.MS is good.
Interestingly, I traded in my Ducati ST2 on my first Norge. My wife and I miss the ST2, but the Norge is far better for us for traveling any distance.
Here's a little comparison of the two bikes:
Moto Guzzi Norge Ducati ST2
Dry weight (lbs.) 566 467
Wet weight (lbs.) 641 540
Saddle height (in.) 31.9 32.3
Wheel base (in.) 61 56.3
Tank capacity (gal.) 6.08 5.55
Fork diameter (mm) 45 43
Engine size (cc) 1,151 944
Horsepower 102 @ 7,000 83 @ 8,500
Hp / dry weight lb. 0.1802 0.1777
Hp / wet weight lb. 0.1591 0.1537
Torque 76.7 @ 5,500 62 @ 6,500
Ft. lbs. / dry weight lb. 0.1355 0.1328
Ft. lbs. / wet weight lb. 0.1197 0.1148
Top speed (mph) 130 138
Front wheel 3.5x17
Front tire 120/70 ZR17
Rear wheel 5.5x17
Rear tire 180/55 ZR17 170/60 ZR17
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Thanks for all the feedback and especially the opinion of the passenger ergo's. That is of paramount concern. Thanks Chuck. So, if I'm wise and rule out the ST, where to now? Hmmm.
I think the argument surrounding maintenance holds true for any brand. If you can't or don't want to do your own work you are at the mercy of your chosen repair shop. I had a Duc 750 F1 and valve adjustments were very involved requiring head removal and at least a half day to perform. I accepted it as part of the deal but I also think I rode it less as a result. A fun bike in my 30's but not something I'd tackle now.
Thanks again, All!
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Both . Look , even Chuck said basically the same thing . Ducatis are cool , but if you can't do your own mechanical stuff they can be expensive .
Dusty
So can Honda��s, Suzuki �s, Kawasaki�s, BMW�s, Guzzi�s and every other brand of motorcycle. It isn�t an exclusivity to Ducati ownership even though many like to portray that it it.
If you can�t or don�t what to do the work yourself and rely on a dealer to do the work, no matter what brand it�s going to be expensive.
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So can Honda��s, Suzuki �s, Kawasaki�s, BMW�s, Guzzi�s and every other brand of motorcycle. It isn�t an exclusivity to Ducati ownership even though many like to portray that it it.
If you can�t or don�t what to do the work yourself and rely on a dealer to do the work, no matter what brand it�s going to be expensive.
All true in some cases , but there are cheaper and simpler alternatives . There are more dealers and independent mechanics who are familiar with the Japanese brands than with Ducati . For me , sorting out a Norge would be a simpler solution , but the OP already ruled that out , seems that dealing with another Italian bike would present the same issues . That was my point all along .
Dusty
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All true in some cases , but there are cheaper and simpler alternatives . There are more dealers and independent mechanics who are familiar with the Japanese brands than with Ducati . For me , sorting out a Norge would be a simpler solution , but the OP already ruled that out , seems that dealing with another Italian bike would present the same issues . That was my point all along .
Dusty
So by the reasoning in you second sentence the OP should defiantly stay away from Moto Guzzi, correct? The Ducati dealer network is probably 10 or 20 times what Guzzi is.
Look I get it but it galls me when people arbitrarily throw out Ducati's are "expensive to maintain" (and someone always does) when that truly isn't the case.
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So by the reasoning in you second sentence the OP should defiantly stay away from Moto Guzzi, correct? The Ducati dealer network is probably 10 or 20 times what Guzzi is.
Look I get it but it galls me when people arbitrarily throw out Ducati's are "expensive to maintain" (and someone always does) when that truly isn't the case.
Just curious , did you read what I actually wrote ?
Dusty
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There is no substitute for a Ducati, you accept the required maintenance, do it your self or pay a shop....I mean guys ignore the flaws/quirks of Moto Guzzi because there is no substitute...
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Appreciate the feedback Chuck, but... The Norge is up on the ST by 100+ lbs. ,and, having had a Stelvio, I just really don't like that motor. It sounds like a bucket of rocks and runs like crap out of the box. Guzzidiag etc. be damned (sorry Pete Roper et.al.). I just don't have the patience nor the aptitude for such, nor do I think it should be necessary.
Some of you should reread this post from the OP . This is what some of us , including Chuckie, were responding to . No one was bashing Ducati , but they are like Guzzi in that they need some sorting .
Dusty
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Just curious , did you read what I actually wrote ?
Dusty
Sure did and you are stating that Japanese bikes are less expensive to maintain than a Ducati because there are more people who maintain/work on them.
"There are more dealers and independent mechanics who are familiar with the Japanese brands than with Ducati"
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Sure did and you are stating that Japanese bikes are less expensive to maintain than a Ducati because there are more people who maintain/work on them.
"There are more dealers and independent mechanics who are familiar with the Japanese brands than with Ducati"
Are you disagreeing with that ? The OP wants a fiddle free motorbike , if I understand him . Hard to beat a Japanese product for fiddle free .
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Are you disagreeing with that ? The OP wants a fiddle free motorbike , if I understand him . Hard to beat a Japanese product for fiddle free .
And... every time you take a bike to a Ducati dealership it's $400. Plus whatever might be wrong at $125 an hour. At least that's the way it is around here.
*Not* that there's anything wrong with that. You just have to be aware of what you are getting in to. Can you service that ST2 yourself? Absolutely, as long as you have access to the shim kit. How about that new Duck? No.
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And... every time you take a bike to a Ducati dealership it's $400. Plus whatever might be wrong at $125 an hour. At least that's the way it is around here.
*Not* that there's anything wrong with that. You just have to be aware of what you are getting in to. Can you service that ST2 yourself? Absolutely, as long as you have access to the shim kit. How about that new Duck? No.
On the shim kits. The air cooled two valve kits are about 150 bucks....I checked the clearance on my 96 900 and it was good as is...And why can't a skilled hobbyist work on his new Ducati? Can't buy timing belts or shims if they are needed?
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Are you disagreeing with that ? The OP wants a fiddle free motorbike , if I understand him . Hard to beat a Japanese product for fiddle free .
Yes I am. Just because there are more shops that service Japanese bikes doesn't mean they have a cheaper hourly rate or can do business for less money.
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On the shim kits. The air cooled two valve kits are about 150 bucks....I checked the clearance on my 96 900 and it was good as is...And why can't a skilled hobbyist work on his new Ducati? Can't buy timing belts or shims if they are needed?
Crazy valve shims are not exclusive to Ducati. Lots of other manufacturers use them. But the myth of high cost and only that only a few anointed mortals can work on them must perpetuate.
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Dawns that maybe I am the only WG'er who has seen your 916 Leroy . Got a pic to show these
guys ? Cool bike .
Dusty
Not going to have to twist my arm to show her off Dusty...
(http://thumb.ibb.co/dkchy6/100_0367.jpg) (http://ibb.co/dkchy6)
(http://thumb.ibb.co/jUnAkm/100_0365.jpg) (http://ibb.co/jUnAkm)
(http://thumb.ibb.co/bwf7WR/100_0366.jpg) (http://ibb.co/bwf7WR)
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She is a beauty Leroy :bow:
Dusty
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timeless design
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I've owned four Ducatis and six Guzzis. The Ducatis required no more mechanical inclination than the Guzzis. And yes, the Ducati dealer network makes it less likely you will need to service the bike yourself.
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Good points - the ST2s and early ST4/ST4s had a fairly aggressive seating position. They needed bar risers and a better seat to be acceptable. Did that to mine and it was fine. ST3s and later ST4S, 2004+ have the ergos sorted but i think the seats are still junk. i bought a Sargent ($450) for mine and it was great.
My 2004 ST4s seat is great.
The sport touring forum is at http://www.ducati.ms/forums/40-sport-touring/
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On the shim kits. The air cooled two valve kits are about 150 bucks....I checked the clearance on my 96 900 and it was good as is...And why can't a skilled hobbyist work on his new Ducati? Can't buy timing belts or shims if they are needed?
I said you could work on the ST2. Your 96 is a walk in the park, too. The new ones? Electronic everything, including suspension. I'm willing to be corrected, but I'll bet Ducati diag won't do that stuff. <shrug>
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I said you could work on the ST2. Your 96 is a walk in the park, too. The new ones? Electronic everything, including suspension. I'm willing to be corrected, but I'll bet Ducati diag won't do that stuff. <shrug>
Well this would be a valid point if Ducati was the only manufacturer that was producing motorcycles with "electronic everything" but they are not.
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Well this would be a valid point if Ducati was the only manufacturer that was producing motorcycles with "electronic everything" but they are not.
True, but I won't have one of those either. :smiley:
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Not going to have to twist my arm to show her off Dusty...
(http://thumb.ibb.co/dkchy6/100_0367.jpg) (http://ibb.co/dkchy6)
(http://thumb.ibb.co/jUnAkm/100_0365.jpg) (http://ibb.co/jUnAkm)
(http://thumb.ibb.co/bwf7WR/100_0366.jpg) (http://ibb.co/bwf7WR)
Nice. I had a '95 also...made no sense to ride it on the street. I used it as a track bike for about 15 years. On the track, with your knee down, the bike was in it's element. No traction control, no abs, no slipper clutch...I swear I felt like Foggy every time. The pic was just after putting her back to street trim before the sale. Fastest bike sale ever - the calls just kept coming in...
(http://thumb.ibb.co/fePNJ6/IMG_1375.jpg) (http://ibb.co/fePNJ6)
upload and resize image site (http://imgbb.com/)
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The Kid sent me a listing yesterday..
2003 999
393 miles
$4500