'09 Stelvio ABS - left cylinder/head knocking issue

[lukee]

Hi there!
I am new on these forums and already provided my introduction in the appropriate thread.
I am about to buy used Stelvio '09 ABS which has 'knocking' issue from the left cylinder/head, other way the Stelvio is in the perfect condition, with all the original markings on the screws, original harnesses etc. Authorized Guzzi service told me that the servicing database does not contain a record about flat tappets upgrade to rolling tappets, thus if the knocking issue is caused by this failure, Guzzi will supply upgraded parts (rolling tappets) free of charge. I like the bike very much, thus I decided to buy it altough it has the knocking issue, hoping that Guzzi authorized service will fix it. I would like to put few questions into the place:

- I have read multiple threads (not only on these forums) regarding the issue and as the knocking sound is going from the left cylinder and obviously only when idling, me and Guzzi service is assuming that the knocking is caused by larger valve's clearance as the tappets are worn. Is there a chance that the issue could be caused by a different issue and thus Guzzi will not supply the parts within the claiming campaign?
- Why the left cylinder/head is starting to produce the knocking sound first, rather than the right cylinder/head?
- New, upgraded, rolling tappets - does those solve the issue permanently usually?

I will have more info on Monday next week when the Stelvio is going to the service to check the knocking issue diagnosis.
Thanks Guzzi Petrolheads!

Lucas

[Kiwi_Roy]

Are you sure it's from the cylinder and not just the clutch rattling?

[Chuck in Indiana]

Welcome to WG! Honestly, it would have been better to ask before as we say in the midwest "buying a pig in a poke."  This is quite a complicated issue, and I don't know whether Piaggio is better or worse with this kind of thing in Europe.
Search the "rollerizing" threads here.

[lukee]

Hey Roy, I am pretty sure it is coming from the cylinder/head. As the clutch is between engine and gearbox, I would hear it from both sides of the motorcycle. But this knocking issue I hear it only when I am staying on the left side from the motorcycle. When staying on the right side of the motorcycle, knocking is attenuated by the normal engine sound when idling and almost inaudible. The clutch would be audible from both sides, wouldn't be?

Hey Chuck: Thanks for the hint for this magic keyword 'rollerizing' I will search more deeply!

[Wayne Orwig]

- I have read multiple threads (not only on these forums) regarding the issue and as the knocking sound is going from the left cylinder and obviously only when idling, me and Guzzi service is assuming that the knocking is caused by larger valve's clearance as the tappets are worn. Is there a chance that the issue could be caused by a different issue and thus Guzzi will not supply the parts within the claiming campaign?
- Why the left cylinder/head is starting to produce the knocking sound first, rather than the right cylinder/head?
- New, upgraded, rolling tappets - does those solve the issue permanently usually?

Worn (or misadjusted) tappets cause large valve clearances that are USUALLY described as a 'clicking' or 'tapping' noise, not a 'knocking' noise. So it may be something else like a failed cam chain tensioner, or even a rod bearing. It is easy to inspect the valve clearance to find out.
Once a tappet, say in the left head, starts to fail, it goes quickly. So that is what you might be hearing. The other side will likely have some wear too, just not enough to hear yet.
The roller tappet upgrade appears to be a permanent fix for the worn tappet issue.

In the US, Piaggio will supply the dealer with a free parts kit, but the owner must pay labor. On a 2009, that means kit C. That takes a lot of time. Not cheap.

[pete roper]

If as Wayne suggests it is a rattling or tapping noise it may well be the tappets having worn and the clearances having opened up. If it is more of a knock, as in a deep, 'Thonk-Thonk-Thonk' noise then it is probably the result of the tappets having gone and then crap having been fed through the bottom end destroying the big ends. If the latter it will require a full engine strip to fix it and if the front main is damaged it becomes even more complex.

First things first though get the top end inspected, all the flat tappet top ends are going to fail eventually and usually sooner rather than later. If the conversion is done make sure the sump is removed for a thorough clean out, don't just follow te factory's silly suggestion of 'Flushing' the sump as this is totally inadequate.

Pete

[lukee]

Thanks.
Well, as I checked the Stelvio last time, I think the sound was coming from the top of the cylinder, rather than bottom end of the engine. I also understand that if the wear level of the tappets is high, metal particles separated from the tappets could be spread across multiple bearings and sliding surfaces, causing additional damage. Inspection will be done by Guzzi authorized service (they are making only Guzzis and for 25 years now, so I am assuming they know what to do/check/inspect. The Stelvio has 20.000 miles on the clock) on Monday next week to check the sound source and tappets/camshaft wear level, I will also remind them to check the sump for the metal particles. Is there some magnet in the sump of Stelvio, to catch any kind of metal particle? (I know that cars have the magnet in the sump).

[Wayne Orwig]

Thanks.
Well, as I checked the Stelvio last time, I think the sound was coming from the top of the cylinder, rather than bottom end of the engine. I also understand that if the wear level of the tappets is high, metal particles separated from the tappets could be spread across multiple bearings and sliding surfaces, causing additional damage. Inspection will be done by Guzzi authorized service (they are making only Guzzis and for 25 years now, so I am assuming they know what to do/check/inspect. The Stelvio has 20.000 miles on the clock) on Monday next week to check the sound source and tappets/camshaft wear level, I will also remind them to check the sump for the metal particles. Is there some magnet in the sump of Stelvio, to catch any kind of metal particle? (I know that cars have the magnet in the sump).

So is it a ticking noise, or a deeper knocking noise?

The DLC coating that comes off of the tappets is carbon based. Likely not magnetic anyway.
 

[twhitaker]

Does the 'knocking' change at all when pulling the clutch lever in?

[pauldaytona]

AS I understand, you did not buy the bike yet? Then let them solve it properly before decide to  take it.  The tappet sound is not what you describe. it sounds like the valve play is to big. On all revs. Actually it is to big, because the tappets get thinner.

[lukee]

I would say it is not as intensive as an hammer beating into an iron. More likely the clicks, but audible even the engine is running. Hard to describe. I do not remeber if the problem was there when pulling the clutch lever.
I paid reservation fee for the Stelvio and agreed with the seller that full price will not be paid until fixed in authorized service.

[pete roper]

Forget clutch noise. Clutch noise is only apparent on earlier twin plate clutch machines, the Stelvio and othe 8V's use a sungle plate clutch which is virtually silent.

Pete

[pauldaytona]

I would say it is not as intensive as an hammer beating into an iron. More likely the clicks, but audible even the engine is running. Hard to describe. I do not remeber if the problem was there when pulling the clutch lever.
I paid reservation fee for the Stelvio and agreed with the seller that full price will not be paid until fixed in authorized service.

 do the clicks have a rhythm? when the chain tensioners or the chain guides are a problem you can have  that.

[Vagrant]

"run Forest run"!

[lucky phil]

Hi there!
I am new on these forums and already provided my introduction in the appropriate thread.
I am about to buy used Stelvio '09 ABS which has 'knocking' issue from the left cylinder/head, other way the Stelvio is in the perfect condition, with all the original markings on the screws, original harnesses etc. Authorized Guzzi service told me that the servicing database does not contain a record about flat tappets upgrade to rolling tappets, thus if the knocking issue is caused by this failure, Guzzi will supply upgraded parts (rolling tappets) free of charge. I like the bike very much, thus I decided to buy it altough it has the knocking issue, hoping that Guzzi authorized service will fix it. I would like to put few questions into the place:

- I have read multiple threads (not only on these forums) regarding the issue and as the knocking sound is going from the left cylinder and obviously only when idling, me and Guzzi service is assuming that the knocking is caused by larger valve's clearance as the tappets are worn. Is there a chance that the issue could be caused by a different issue and thus Guzzi will not supply the parts within the claiming campaign?
- Why the left cylinder/head is starting to produce the knocking sound first, rather than the right cylinder/head?
- New, upgraded, rolling tappets - does those solve the issue permanently usually?

I will have more info on Monday next week when the Stelvio is going to the service to check the knocking issue diagnosis.
Thanks Guzzi Petrolheads!

Lucas

Why would you even go there?
Ciao

[Wayne Orwig]

I would say it is not as intensive as an hammer beating into an iron. More likely the clicks, but audible even the engine is running. Hard to describe. I do not remeber if the problem was there when pulling the clutch lever.
I paid reservation fee for the Stelvio and agreed with the seller that full price will not be paid until fixed in authorized service.

Another thing with the 2009 8 valves. The cam end float was not shimmed. That means, the cam floats back and forth, and can make a lot of harmless noise. But again, I wouldn't describe it as a knock.
The cam upgrade includes a system that prevents that noise.

[lukee]

Guys, I will have the inspection results on Monday morning my timezone. Then I will post it here. Service told me that within 3 days from the inspection, Guzzi business unit in my area will decide if they will supply upgrade kit free of charge. Thus on Thursday next week I will know if I am buying the Stelvio or not. But I like it very much, it is as new, in very mint condition, with no scratches and in very nice dimmed pearl-white painting.

edit: picture added.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Good deal, you had me worried with your first post. I thought you'd already bought it, and *then* asking if you had a problem. 

[lukee]

I just got the papers for potential registration for local plate number. Papers are saying there is A8 engine with S/N: A811206. Guess this one has flat tappets from factory? Based on the S/N, can I guess which upgrade kit (A, B, C) will be purchased by service if the fault is confirmed? Thanks.

[pete roper]

209? 'C' kit.

[pauldaytona]

I would say B kit.

Bike is build: 30.03.2009

GU9032751EU902 STELVIO ABS EU NERA

[lukee]

Had a call with the authorized service on Monday...
They confirmed the clicking sound is caused by worn in camshaft/tappets mechanism and confirmed as well that the upgrade kit was not used yet for this specific bike, thus the engine is in the original setup as it came from the factory.
Additionally, the bike needs brake pads to be replaced and starting motor relay to be upgraded as it is known to fail (it may cause to startup the engine during ride!). They told me they also have remapped software removing torque shortage around 5000 rpm and will flash it to the bike.
Service told me they have sent pictures of the camshaft mechanism fault together with 1500km, 10000km and 30000km service invoices to the business unit in my country in order to get their response whether Guzzi will supply upgrade kit parts for free - yes, good guess, 20k km service invoice is missing, also in Guzzi's information database. But service told me 'they will manage this somehow'. Due date for the response is tomorrow.
They've also told me that part of the upgrade will be oil change, sump and oil cooler cleanup and bottom end inspection.

Did they miss something?

[pete roper]

How does the price compare with a 2013 on model?

[pauldaytona]

So you pay labour and oil?  Sounds like a clean start. I don't know what was the deal, that is your thing.

[Wayne Orwig]

They've also told me that part of the upgrade will be oil change, sump and oil cooler cleanup and bottom end inspection.

Did they miss something?

Sounds right.

You probably need a 'C' kit. That requires a good bit more labor time, so may not be cheap.
If the oil filter did it's job, you should have a great running motor when it is done.

I would plan on another oil change soon after the fix, just to help get more bits of worn lifter out of there.

[lukee]

Labour is estimated between $400-$500. I will go 50/50 with the seller.
There are no used '13 models available in my country as these are very rare.
The Stelvio's price is $6400 (recalculated to USD).

[lukee]

So when reading this:

I would say B kit.

Bike is build: 30.03.2009

GU9032751EU902 STELVIO ABS EU NERA

and this:

Sounds right.

You probably need a 'C' kit. That requires a good bit more labor time, so may not be cheap.
If the oil filter did it's job, you should have a great running motor when it is done.

Which kit do I need actually? I am a bit confused? I understood from the service that they will recognize that according to markings on the engine itself but since that time I was not talking with them.

[canuguzzi]

Why on earth would you go 50/50 for any repairs to a bike you don't yet own and for which the repairs are essential for its continued operation?

In my mind, known to wander, before I buy the thing, present it as fully functional without major faults or the price I am willing to pay is for a project and the numbers are small unless it is a collector item.

Someone will correct me but a Stelvio with flat tappets is not a collector item except for the service and parts people collecting your money.

 :Beating_A_Dead_Hors e_by_liviu

 

[Wayne Orwig]

So when reading this:
and this:
Which kit do I need actually? I am a bit confused? I understood from the service that they will recognize that according to markings on the engine itself but since that time I was not talking with them.

You need a B or C kit. (2009, right?)
Later models that had the valve shimmed already, have a 'drill' mark on the inside of the head. Most 2009 models that I have heard/seen, do not have the mark, so need a C kit. But then that is in the US, and it may be different with you. The dealer will have the instructions available to determine which kit is needed.
Some people that need a C kit, are just using a B kit, and not reshimming the valve springs. I don't know enough about it to go there, so I used the C kit and shimmed them.

[pete roper]

As a 2009 bike I'm guessing a 'C' kit too as the factory didn't start putting the shims under the inlet valves until mid 2010 from memory.

The only way to check with any certainty though is to look at the sides of the head that face the valley of the motor. If it needs a 'B' kit there will be a small drill mark in the paint next to the date stamp in the casting. If the paint is untouched then the machine needs a 'C' kit. Whoops, I see Wayne already covered that.

If it is being done at your expense there are cheaper ways of doing it, at least in the long term, than going with the 'C' kit but if the factory is supplying a kit just take it and be happy.

If you check out this thread.

http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=78160.msg1228436#msg1228436

You'll get a pretty good idea of what is involved although a 2009 Stelvio is far more of a pain in the arse due to all the crap you have to remove.

As for Wayne's observation that some people are not installing the shims to save a bit of money? My guess would be if you never get anywhere near the rev limiter you'll probably be OK. Thing is if something does go wrong it might be very, very expensive.

Pete