Aero engine rescue

[Chuck in Indiana]

Looks like Guzzi made the engines, and Hunter or a subcontractor did the rest.  I've never had a smallblock but suppose they have the same generation alternator as the big blocks, and then the small nose will fit.

Did you get any parts manual with it or other documentation? 

Boy, I wish.. a fair amount of internet searching has turned up nothing. This certainly doesn't look like it will fit the Ducati alternator.. different taper and no keyway. Major bummer there.

[rocker59]

Stupid Question:  Why not leave the big Bosch alternator in place ?

[Chuck in Indiana]

Stupid Question:  Why not leave the big Bosch alternator in place ?

I haven't measured, but I imagine the front wheel would hit it. Not to mention, it'd be seriously ugly.  ;D From what reading I've done on it from guys like Iceblue and Dogwalker, I had visions of it being made of mostly stock 750 Guzzi parts. Plug and play with a little tinkering. Maybe not.. more pix to follow. A stock Guzzi crank was certainly on my wish list.  ;D

[Chuck in Indiana]

So, let's have a peek.. ;D
Uh oh, non standard oil filter.. a UFI 25-558-00. A quick search gives it on several sites, but nothing in 'Merican.  ;) That means that the spacer is not an add on. Probably. We'll pull the pan and have a look, anyway.

Uh oh. My memory isn't terribly good, but the bottom half of the crankcase looks "different". It may be like the intake castings, they *look* similar.

At any rate, I'll not be able to do away with the spacer/oil cooler, as I'd hoped. What a Guzzi engine that's run on the street doesn't need is more cooling. ;D
Now, I'll have to find some shop manuals and do some measuring. Hopefully, I can still use the top end.<sigh>
I pulled a valve cover before coming in just for grins and checked the valve clearances. .008" and .010. Pretty much what you'd expect on an engine that is designed to run WFO all it's life..

[pauldaytona]

I can send you the workshop manual and parts list of the ie v7 engines, that has pictures from parts to compare. For generator the rank is there straight, not tappered. And looks longer then yours. Some people used small ducati racing alternators in cases like this. I see bottom engine is different too, where in almost center have the angled piece sticking out, thats not in the normal engine

[Chuck in Indiana]

I can send you the workshop manual and parts list of the ie v7 engines, that has pictures from parts to compare. For generator the rank is there straight, not tappered. And looks longer then yours. Some people used small ducati racing alternators in cases like this. I see bottom engine is different too, where in almost center have the angled piece sticking out, thats not in the normal engine

Right. That was my first clue after the non standard oil filter.  ;D Thanks, Paul.. but not yet. Let me delve a little deeper first. Interesting stuff...

[jacksonracingcomau]

How many degrees from vertical can you go, roughly?

Not certain but I've been tipping them pretty much as far as physically possible since day 1 (36 years and counting !)
Concentric was Amal's term, theory being you don't run out of gas leaning into corners like a monobloc (remote chamber).
Of course there is a limit (upside down in a plane for instance) but you're only looking at a few degrees to clear knees, nothing like full lean, pegs on deck angle

Boy, I wish.. a fair amount of internet searching has turned up nothing. This certainly doesn't look like it will fit the Ducati alternator.. different taper and no keyway. Major bummer there.

Not the Bosch taper ? looks similar (early small block, Tonti BB pre 90's) no keyway on them


 

Oil Cooler could be bypassed with hose joining in and out ports to save any inside engineering

Keep it coming Chuck, this thing will be special.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Keep it coming Chuck, this thing will be special.

Thanks for the encouragement, Martin. I'm a little down right now.. I will check out the Bosch taper.

[Dogwalker]

Uh oh. My memory isn't terribly good, but the bottom half of the crankcase looks "different". It may be like the intake castings, they *look* similar.

Uhmmm...
apart from the spacer, it still seems standard stuff to me.

[huub]

looks like they fitted a spacer to be able to fit a oil cooler?
guzzi did the same when building the djerba off road bikes.

keep the pics coming , i am jealous, what a engine.
a 70 hp smallblock , that should be fun on the road...

hubert

[Chuck in Indiana]

Uhmmm...
apart from the spacer, it still seems standard stuff to me.

Ooh, those pictures are worth a thousand words. I've mentioned before that I'm *not* a Guzzi mechanic, and haven't had the bottom end of a small block apart before. When I didn't see what I expected, I jumped to conclusions.  ;D As they say in the NFL, "Upon further review" that crank taper just might be for the old Bosch alternator. That would make it even easier.  ;D Looking back through my Lario pictures, the end of the cam looks similar, too.. Fingers crossed.

[Dogwalker]

As they say in the NFL, "Upon further review" that crank taper just might be for the old Bosch alternator.

It seems probable.

[tiger_one]

This is a neat thread.  Hemi heads for the V7, WTH Guzzi, what is the down side?  I'm missing something.

On the 36mm carbs, if gasket still fits, slot the holes.  Ruins the carbs, but.

I flew the "Eagle" ultralight out of Waco Texas, a few years ago (1979?).  It used a 250cc rotax upside down as a pusher, plug wire vibrated off one day.  I was plenty high, engine kept windmilling while I reached back and slapped the plug wire back on.  Lots of fields to put down a 30mph ultralight in the area, so no worries.

example of Eagle:

[RayB]

Chuck

This module with 7 pins looks exactly like the ICU-Ignition Control Unit, on my 82 Beemer. I'm sure that won't make you happy.
This same type ICU was used on 80's Volkswagen Jetta and other models. At least on the beemer it receives a signal from a hall effect sensor that operates in what we call a bean can. When the hall sensor sees a gap in the timing wheel it sends a signal to the ICU ( which is really just a signal amplifier ) that cuts the current to the coils to produce the spark

I don't know how that would help you with this engine but just sayin'

[tiger_one]

Has anyone ever been successful getting documentation from this website specified by Guzziology?

I cannot make heads or tails from it.

http://www.ncweb.it/default.asp

Also, since Northrop owns the system now after purchase from TRW, they may have the guzzi documentation.
Think I am getting about as close to the classified stuff as I may.  

Contact info at bottom of the last news release on this link (upper right)
http://www.northropgrumman.com/Capabilities/MQ5BHunter/Pages/default.aspx

[Chuck in Indiana]

Has anyone ever been successful getting documentation from this website specified by Guzziology?

I cannot make heads or tails from it.

http://www.ncweb.it/default.asp

Also, since Northrop owns the system now after purchase from TRW, they may have the guzzi documentation.
Think I am getting about as close to the classified stuff as I may.  

Contact info at bottom of the last news release on this link (upper right)
http://www.northropgrumman.com/Capabilities/MQ5BHunter/Pages/default.aspx

Thanks for that. The info on the site is about the diesel Hunter, but I sent an email to them, anyway. Maybe something will come of it..or not.  ;D Didn't even have time to look at it today, but I'm cautiously optimistic, now.

[Dogwalker]

I flew the "Eagle" ultralight out of Waco Texas, a few years ago (1979?).  It used a 250cc rotax upside down as a pusher, plug wire vibrated off one day.  I was plenty high, engine kept windmilling while I reached back and slapped the plug wire back on.  Lots of fields to put down a 30mph ultralight in the area, so no worries.

[tiger_one]

I flew the weedhopper, John Chotia's 2 stroke engine.  Pretty simple compared to the above ^^^^.



Looking at the trike above (posted by Dogwalker), reminds me of the day a young fellow showed up at my little country airport with a new trike and his hangglider.  He had started Baylor, moved from N.M. I believe and flew his hangglider there.  He wanted to keep flying so bought the trike.

Never flew it before and I had never seen one.  Gets it all together and takes off!  What a sight with the trike dangling all over the place while he wrestled with control.  Made a pattern and landed, never saw him again after that, but that was something to see.  Wished I had a video of that takeoff.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Hey, a Weed chopper..  ;D Haven't seen one of those in a long time.

[Steph]

Good to see that aero engine in detail!

I reckon that if you tried to build an Ippogrifo V7 replica, you could name your price ;D

[Chuck in Indiana]

Good to see that aero engine in detail!

I reckon that if you tried to build an Ippogrifo V7 replica, you could name your price ;D

No doubt.. as long is was low, if I expected to sell it.  ;D

[Chuck in Indiana]

Ok, I've officially decided to put it in the Beater Lario (tm).
Chad, The mayor of bbq graciously offered to *give* me his V65 as a donor bike  :o so I'd get my buns in gear.


It would have been a great one to use, but.. as I've said before.. if you look for issues in an old machine, you *will* find them. I've already gone through the Lario from stem to stern, and would't hesitate to ride it across the country. That was documented in the Lario Rehab thread, and it took a fairly long time. I'm hoping that the engine swap project is shorter lived.
Thanks again, Chad! I certainly appreciate it. Gotta love the Guzzi community.. ;-T
So. The Lario was up in the Guzzi Garage, and it needs to come down to the shop. I *hate* to start up an air cooled engine without fully bringing it up to operating temperature, so I thought, "Oh, I'll just push it down there." There's snow covering the tall grass. The wind is blowing in my face at about 30 knots. Seriously. The 20 knot wind sock was standing straight out, and the tail was popping up and down. I get it down to the hanger apron which is ice covered  ::) and the wind starts blowing the bike (and me) sideways. Fortunately, I was able to get the kick stand down without either of us falling down.  ;D Have I mentioned it is ridiculously cold? About this time, I noticed that I was puffing and blowing like a steam engine. Thought, "You dumbass, that's how old farts meet the grim reaper." I'll remember that when I get old.. ~;  :BEER:
At any rate, I managed to get the hanger door up without it blowing off the tracks, and pushed it in.  ;)

Started boxing

bagging

and organizing aero engine accessories in case some archaeologist wonders what they are some day..

Once I get this stuff stored, and the reloading press (gun content)  ;) off the workbench, we'll get started.

 

[Unkept]

:) Now you won't have to split your time with the Lario and another small block!

Maybe mount the prop drive on the 4v mill and use the aero subframe to mount it on a wall for display?

Have fun!

[Mayor_of_BBQ]

Yes Chuck!

Get

Your

Buns

In

Gear!

 ;D ;D

[Chuck in Indiana]

Buns engaged.. ;D
Alrighty, now! Time to start mixing and matching..

The transmission bolts right up. I'm *assuming* parts from the Lario clutch will fit in the Aero gizmo.  ;)

The crankshaft taper *is* for the old Bosch alternator. This will make mating the charging system with the Lario a no brainer..the kind I'm best at.  ;D

However, the nose of the cam is decidedly different from the old small block cam. I *could* fit up some kind of ignition, but I *really* want to use the original advance plate, and the mechanical tach drive. I love the old white face Veglias, especially the big ones.  ;D Somehow, I need to put the old style cam in the new engine. Looking through the old and new shop manuals, I can find no reference to cam stuff. Time to get on the horn to Ed, I think..

[rocker59]

 :pop

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

[/URL]
However, the nose of the cam is decidedly different from the old small block cam. I *could* fit up some kind of ignition, but I *really* want to use the original advance plate, and the mechanical tach drive. I love the old white face Veglias, especially the big ones.  ;D Somehow, I need to put the old style cam in the new engine. Looking through the old and new shop manuals, I can find no reference to cam stuff. Time to get on the horn to Ed, I think..

Since there's no place to mount a "points plate" (or Dyna S, etc.) on that timing cover, maybe use the one off of the Lario engine or buy another small-block one? I'd bet a V65 (C or SP) cam might swap right in too, though whether it will be optimum for the hemi-heads is in question. Custom grind might be in the cards. Ed will be the best source for info. there.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Since there's no place to mount a "points plate" (or Dyna S, etc.) on that timing cover, maybe use the one off of the Lario engine or buy another small-block one? I'd bet a V65 (C or SP) cam might swap right in too, though whether it will be optimum for the hemi-heads is in question. Custom grind might be in the cards. Ed will be the best source for info. there.

Oh, yeah.. I was planning on using the front accessory case from the Lario. I just stuck the rotor on to make sure the crank taper was the same. I've sent Ed an email.

[pauldaytona]

Chuck must it be a points ignition? Because when you use the sensors your have, you can use an electronic ignition with them. Ignitec( http://www.ignitech.cz/en/vyrobky ) from Tsjechia comes to mind, they have a small unit they can programm for any engine.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Chuck must it be a points ignition? Because when you use the sensors your have, you can use an electronic ignition with them. Ignitec( http://www.ignitech.cz/en/vyrobky ) from Tsjechia comes to mind, they have a small unit they can programm for any engine.

It wouldn't *have* to use the original ignition, but I *really* like the big white faced Veglia tach, and it's strictly mechanical. I'd lose that..
Thanks for your input, though. I still may have to go that way..