Author Topic: Aero engine rescue  (Read 398659 times)

Offline Dogwalker

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #240 on: November 25, 2014, 08:19:13 PM »
considering they used the same camshaft on the two valve heads, and on the four valve heads i would be amazed if they made a special camshaft for the aero engine.
From what I remember from an interview with Todero, they did.

Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #241 on: November 26, 2014, 11:36:25 AM »
Ok, let's find out what we have. Thought I'd bite the bullet and (cough cough) buy a degree wheel. Called an auto parts store close by. "A what?" Tried the NAPA know how man. "Never have heard of a degree wheel."  ::) This country is losing skilled people by the minute.
I'd made a quicky on the printer and stuck it on some canvas bakelite I had laying around when I first put the Lario together, so just decided to use it. It'll be close enough for what we're doing..

Now, we need a piston stop. The longest M10 x 1 bolt I have isn't long enough. I'll bet Stan at the local hardware doesn't have a longer one with threads all the way up, either.. so
Drill and ream .001" smaller than an ejector pin.. (I was a mold maker in another life time)

Cut off a piece of hardened ejector pin with a fiber wheel..

Press it together with the Ancient Airlines High Tech Assembly Press.. nothing fancy, just need to keep the steel piece from falling into the engine..

Grind a bullet nose on the end. No need to ding the piston with a sharp edge when bringing it up against the stop. Sorry, no picture..takes two hands.  ;D

Now, we have a piston stop. How long did that take? Less time than telling about it.
All we have to do now is fashion a pointer for the degree wheel and something to hold a dial indicator. "TWEEEEET" Oh, that was the lunch whistle. Back later..
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
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Rumba

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #242 on: November 26, 2014, 11:57:22 AM »
chuck, open up "google pictures" and type in: degree wheel.
lots of pretty stuff to print then.
 :BEER:

Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #243 on: November 26, 2014, 03:04:28 PM »
chuck, open up "google pictures" and type in: degree wheel.
lots of pretty stuff to print then.
 :BEER:

Too late.  ;D Besides that, it would have included using a printer that works.  ::) At any rate, I rummaged through my "good junk" pile, found a piece of .045 aircraft aluminum, went over to the shear and brake, and have a custom made pointer.

I may as well impart another pearl of machine shop wisdom while I'm at it. To drill holes in thin stock, a normal drill will make a triangular hole, and just as it breaks through jerk it out of the vise and beat you to death with it.  ;D Seriously. You can get hurt. Here's how to grind a sheet metal bit. I'm showing a big one so you can see the geometry, but you make the small ones the same way. Do it by hand on a bench grinder with a radius dressed on the edge. Grind it so the point touches first, then the outer flutes. It will center on the point, then the outer flutes will start cutting, make a round hole, and won't grab. Your insurance carrier will thank me.  ;) :BEER:

 
Mounted up.

Now all we have to do is find a way for the magnetic indicator holder to be mounted. Rummaging in the good junk pile again finds a piece of 1/8" steel. Drill a mount hole. Notice that I didn't use a sheet metal drill in this much thicker stuff, but it still made a sort of triangular hole.


Now, we're set to check the Lario cam. Cost? zero. (Guzzi content)  ;D
Turn the engine in the direction of normal rotation until it hits the stop. Rotate the degree wheel to zero.
Turn the engine in the opposite direction until it hits the stop and read the degrees. In this case, it was 52. So, I set the degree wheel at 26. Now, when you rotate the engine to zero you will be at TDC. ?Comprende  ;D If the flywheel is marked correctly, the mark will line up with the split line of the crankcase. It does.
Ok, here we go. We want the axis of the indicator to be parallel with the pushrod. Ideally, it should *be* on the pushrod, but this will be close enough for all practical purposes. Set the indicator to zero. It should stay there on the base circle of the cam. Rotate the engine in the direction of normal rotation. (CW, viewed from the front) As the indicator starts to move, stop at .050" and read the degree wheel. When it tops out, read the total lift on the indicator. As it goes down, stop at .050 and read the degree wheel again.
Here's what the Lario cam says.
Exhaust opens 134 degrees
total lift .253"
Exhaust closes 8 degrees BTDC
Intake opens 7 degrees BTDC
total lift .253"
Closes 37 degrees After BDC
I don't know cam nomenclature, so these might not make sense to a cam grinder. What we're trying to do here is see if the aero engine is the same.
So...
This is a TDC tool I made 30 years ago for the VW powerplant in my homebuilt airplane. It'll work fine on the aero engine.

I'll check it out after a while. Don't touch that dial.  ;D Gotta talk to the telephone fixer and the range salesman.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2014, 03:11:00 PM by Chuck in Indiana »
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
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 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #243 on: November 26, 2014, 03:04:28 PM »

Offline Aaron D.

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #244 on: November 26, 2014, 03:44:43 PM »
Good stuff about the sheet metal drill! That will come in handy, thanks for that.

In defense of the current generation, I  don't think many auto parts guys knew degree wheels back in the 70's.

Offline normzone

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #245 on: November 26, 2014, 03:51:11 PM »
" Besides that, it would have included using a printer that works. "

I have it on good authority from the intelligent machines coalition that when the revolution comes, the printers will not be participating.

Quote: " Printers? Those guys don't get along with anybody ! "

Thanks for the machinist wisdom. You have saved me some future grief.

That's the combustion chamber of the turbo shaft. It is supposed to be on fire. You just don't usually see it but the case and fairing fell off.

Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #246 on: November 26, 2014, 04:07:37 PM »
" Besides that, it would have included using a printer that works. "

I have it on good authority from the intelligent machines coalition that when the revolution comes, the printers will not be participating.

Quote: " Printers? Those guys don't get along with anybody ! "

Thanks for the machinist wisdom. You have saved me some future grief.



Glad to help. I *hate* to see guys running around with blood gushing out of their hand..
Didn't know about the printers.  ;D Thanks for the heads up. Got the fone fixed, got the range ordered, but the whistle just blew, and it's beer o'clock. We'll get to the aero engine cam tomorrow.
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
87 AeroLario
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 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
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Offline jacksonracingcomau

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #247 on: November 26, 2014, 07:26:50 PM »
Find peak lift
read degree wheel 010" before and after max lift (normal rotation)
As with TDC the middle of these is true peak lift
read as ATDC for inlet and ABDC for exhaust

From first figures you've got 108 ex and 105 inlet,
more accurate closer to max but numbers sound right

Then overlap--- your 7 & 8 figures say it's close--- measure lift on both at TDC (same way)

To be perfect measure all 4 lobes.
Not needed for this comparo but you may as well get all detail on Aero cam if it's different-- this will tell grinder everything

The box of sparks man here is CSPerformance (67 V700 barn find thread) bet he can make trigger work (programmable)

Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #248 on: November 26, 2014, 08:13:15 PM »
Find peak lift
read degree wheel 010" before and after max lift (normal rotation)
As with TDC the middle of these is true peak lift
read as ATDC for inlet and ABDC for exhaust

From first figures you've got 108 ex and 105 inlet,
more accurate closer to max but numbers sound right

Then overlap--- your 7 & 8 figures say it's close--- measure lift on both at TDC (same way)

To be perfect measure all 4 lobes.
Not needed for this comparo but you may as well get all detail on Aero cam if it's different-- this will tell grinder everything

The box of sparks man here is CSPerformance (67 V700 barn find thread) bet he can make trigger work (programmable)

Thanks for that. I'll check the aero cam in the morning. I talked to CS at the nationals this year. It could be made to work, but not with the stock sensors. I'm still planning on using the mechanical tach drive if at all possible.. ~;  ;D
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
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 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
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Offline tris

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #249 on: November 27, 2014, 01:37:22 AM »

I may as well impart another pearl of machine shop wisdom while I'm at it. To drill holes in thin stock, a normal drill will make a triangular hole, and just as it breaks through jerk it out of the vise and beat you to death with it.  ;D Seriously. You can get hurt. Here's how to grind a sheet metal bit. I'm showing a big one so you can see the geometry, but you make the small ones the same way. Do it by hand on a bench grinder with a radius dressed on the edge. Grind it so the point touches first, then the outer flutes. It will center on the point, then the outer flutes will start cutting, make a round hole, and won't grab. Your insurance carrier will thank me.  ;) :BEER:

 

I think that called a butterfly ground tip over here at least
« Last Edit: November 27, 2014, 01:38:11 AM by tris »
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Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #250 on: November 27, 2014, 11:18:07 AM »
Find peak lift
read degree wheel 010" before and after max lift (normal rotation)
As with TDC the middle of these is true peak lift
read as ATDC for inlet and ABDC for exhaust

From first figures you've got 108 ex and 105 inlet,
more accurate closer to max but numbers sound right

Then overlap--- your 7 & 8 figures say it's close--- measure lift on both at TDC (same way)

To be perfect measure all 4 lobes.
Not needed for this comparo but you may as well get all detail on Aero cam if it's different-- this will tell grinder everything

The box of sparks man here is CSPerformance (67 V700 barn find thread) bet he can make trigger work (programmable)

I'll go back and measure the Lario on the pushrod end so we're comparing oranges to oranges..  ;D Made a gizmo to fit on the indicator that will center it on the pushrod. Tomorrow should tell all. Doing Thanksgiving things today. We have *much* to be thankful for..
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
87 AeroLario
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22 Royal Enfield Classic 3 fiddy
 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
Albert Einstein

Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #251 on: November 28, 2014, 01:23:08 PM »
Well, every skilled tradesman knows that “There’s never enough time to do it right, but always time to do it over".  ;D I originally thought that I’d just do a quick check and see if the two cams were similar. No real need to do it right.. but I wasn’t getting repeatable results.
So I decided to do it right this morning. Made a piece that fits over the indicator shaft with a tiny cone on it that will fit down in the oil delivery hole in the pushrod to keep everything centered. While I was at it, the indicator itself was sticking from old lube/dust in the air, so I took it apart, cleaned it, and put a drop of MMO on the works.
Rumba mentioned downloading a degree wheel to print, so did that, too. It just happened to be the right diameter for the piece of bakelite that I’d turned for my quick and dirty degree wheel. I’d rather be lucky than good…  ;D

Now, let’s get started doing it right. I should remind you that *I've never done this before* but it’s typical machine shop work. I’m following Martin’s instructions as best I can. Thanks Martin!
Let’s walk through doing one cam lobe.
Removing the bolt lets the pin that holds the rocker arm slide out.

It is a very robust valve train, nothing like the dainty Lario.

We went over finding TDC yesterday, no need to restate that. Set the indicator at 0. It will now be on the base circle of the cam.

Rotate the engine until the indicator reads .050” This is when the valve starts to open. Read the degree wheel. Here, if you look carefully, you will see the indicator on 50 and the degree wheel at 9 degrees BTDC.

Continue turning in the direction of normal rotation until the indicator shows max deflection. This is total lift. Naturally, I forgot to take a picture, but it is .255 inch. Now, we want to find that angle, so back the flywheel up past .245, then normal rotation to .245 and read the degree wheel. Here, it reads 81.

Continue turning past .255 until it starts down and stop at .245 again. Read the degree wheel.

132. So 81 plus 132 divided by two is 106 degrees. Max lift is .255 inch @106 degrees ATDC. Gots it?  ;D
Now, all we have to do is keep turning in the direction of normal rotation until the indicator is at 050 again. Read the degree wheel at 44 degrees ABDC.

One other thing. Martin said to check overlap at TDC, so I assume that means the TDC where rookie Guzzi mechanics mistakenly set the valves.  ;D That’s .073” on the indicator on this one.

That’s basically how it’s done. It’s the first time for me, and I know “I” learned a lot. If you have never done it, hopefully you learned something, too.  :D
Here’s the specs:
Lario:
Exhaust Opens 45 degrees BDDC Max lift .234”@73 degrees ABDC. Closes 10 degrees ATDC. Overlap .077 at TDC
Intake Opens 8 degrees BTDC Max lift .234”@ 106 Degrees ATDC. Closes 45 degrees ABDC Overlap .073 at TDC.
Aero engine:
Exhaust opens 44 degrees BBDC Max lift .255” @ 72 degrees ABDC. Closes 8 degrees ATDC. Overlap .075 at TDC.
Intake opens 9 degrees BTDC. Max lift .255 @ 106 degrees ATDC. Closes 44 degrees ABDC. Overlap .073 at TDC.

Other than .021” more lift, they look quite similar to me. There is no doubt some slight error reading the very small degree wheel, but not much, I would think. One degree one way or the other doesn’t sound like much to me but “I know nothing.”  ;D  Maybe someone that does will chime in.
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
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Offline rocker59

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #252 on: November 28, 2014, 02:06:53 PM »
 :pop
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Offline dl.allen

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #253 on: November 28, 2014, 02:25:10 PM »
I dont get the 10 thou before and after max lift?  Is that just to get thr degree wheel reading to half to read the max lift?

Online huub

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #254 on: November 28, 2014, 02:27:55 PM »
pretty amazing , exactly the same cam timing.
so running this cam on a road bike shouldnt be a problem
the valve train looks like what you will find in a bigblock guzzi


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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #255 on: November 28, 2014, 03:48:09 PM »
So only difference is 1/2 a mm more lift. While that is a difference I can't see it making a terrific change to performance. Why not try one of the 'Boring as Batshit and Common as Muck' V65 cams withnthe required drive on the front and see what happens. With less lift and same duration you know nothing is going to go 'Biff'. I'd still turn it over by hand before tring to start it though but I'm paranoid like that. ;D

Pete

Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #256 on: November 28, 2014, 03:51:46 PM »
I dont get the 10 thou before and after max lift?  Is that just to get thr degree wheel reading to half to read the max lift?

It's hard to tell *exactly* where the highest point is. You can rotate the crankshaft a little without much change in the indicator reading. By going .010" on each side of the highest reading and averaging it, you have an accurate dimension. Make sense?
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
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Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #257 on: November 28, 2014, 04:43:09 PM »
So only difference is 1/2 a mm more lift. While that is a difference I can't see it making a terrific change to performance. Why not try one of the 'Boring as Batshit and Common as Muck' V65 cams withnthe required drive on the front and see what happens. With less lift and same duration you know nothing is going to go 'Biff'. I'd still turn it over by hand before tring to start it though but I'm paranoid like that. ;D

Pete

I like the way you're thinking.  ;D I'd get to keep my mechanical tach drive, too. I *like* my big white faced Veglia.  ;D (and mechanical stuff in general) I sent an email to Milich.. he told me he had V65 cams with 2mm more lift and 10 degrees more duration. I want an engine that will actually idle.  ~; ;D Whatdoyouthink, you gurus?
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
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 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
Albert Einstein

Offline jacksonracingcomau

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #258 on: November 28, 2014, 06:39:59 PM »
I like the way you're thinking.  ;D I'd get to keep my mechanical tach drive, too. I *like* my big white faced Veglia.  ;D (and mechanical stuff in general) I sent an email to Milich.. he told me he had V65 cams with 2mm more lift and 10 degrees more duration. I want an engine that will actually idle.  ~; ;D Whatdoyouthink, you gurus?

I think you'd have to  to careful with valve valve & valve piston clearance but doubt idle would be issue.
To test fit light valve springs (really really light) to one head, turn over with degree wheel still on, check valve-valve (dial gauge now on valve top collar) need 040" min (TDC and a couple of deg either side)
Ed might know lift at TDC with new cam so work with that number or buy and try
Valve - piston at max lift (add new 2mm - extra 021" you have.). Also around TDC
Me ? I'd run aero cam to try it, 021" is relevant, they went to the trouble of making special grind,
But your peaks are read as
In 106 Ex 107/108 sorry if I said it backwards but are timed neatly, you could advance it 2 deg but no more IMHO,
MH

Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #259 on: November 28, 2014, 06:49:32 PM »
Quote
Me ? I'd run aero cam to try it, 021" is relevant, they went to the trouble of making special grind,

Agreed. But..I'd have a lot of money tied up running it as is. Roughly $400 for ignition, probably a couple of hundred *at least* for a tach. I can get a V65 cam ground for considerably less than that.. *and* I'd still have my white faced Veglia.  ;D ;D
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
87 AeroLario
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 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
Albert Einstein

Offline CalVin2007

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #260 on: November 28, 2014, 09:19:14 PM »
  2mm more lift and 10 deg more duration is what I'd be looking at if I were wanting to have something that made power a bit higher in the rev range but was still decent to ride (and it'll idle too). I'd reassemble what you have with the aero cam and light "checking springs", add the extra lift via the adjustment screws, and rotate the engine as Martin says to check for clearances at all points near TDC. I'd even add a bit extra lift to mimic the extra 10 degrees  of duration since what that will do is get the valve open sooner and closer to the piston. This will get you an idea of what you are dealing with....if you have a mile of clearance then great! If things are close then more careful steps will need be taken. I like the thought of more cam in this one!

   Terry
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Offline kevdog3019

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #261 on: November 28, 2014, 10:05:44 PM »
Ed knows his stuff here. I'd trust him on the cam advice. This is what he does.  :+1 on the Veglia white face!
« Last Edit: November 28, 2014, 10:07:03 PM by kevdog3019 »
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Vasco DG

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #262 on: November 29, 2014, 12:47:44 PM »
One further thought on the cam issue.

The performance criteria for the drone motor would be very different to a motorbike. My guess would be that apart from take off the major criteria would be good fuel economy at one constant engine speed. There is also the matter of air density changes due to altitude, much easier to deal with with FI but since this beast is going to run carbs and need flexibility and altitude changes will be less of an issue it might well be that one of the motorbike engine camshafts would be a better bet.

Just thinking out loud.....

Pete

Online huub

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #263 on: November 29, 2014, 01:13:20 PM »
10 degrees is not that much , but 2 mm extra lift is a significant difference.
you might get into trouble with valves touching each other, or the piston
one modification causes another.
i would just add a revcounter drive to the original camshaft.

having said that , you are the first one fitting a aero engine to a bike , so you might as well be the first one who tunes the aero engine.. ;D

Offline Aaron D.

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #264 on: November 29, 2014, 01:28:48 PM »
I would expect lift in a 2 valve hemi to be higher than a 4 valve Lario, or.a Heron engine.

Offline dl.allen

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #265 on: November 29, 2014, 03:27:51 PM »
It would be cool to run all the original parts together so that's my vote......not that I get one ~;

Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #266 on: November 29, 2014, 04:32:42 PM »
It would be cool to run all the original parts together so that's my vote......not that I get one ~;

I think it would be cool to make a ground pounding small block out of it.. ~;  either that or a mild (but considerably more powerful than what is currently offered) street engine. Haven't decided yet. I get the last vote.  ;D
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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #267 on: November 29, 2014, 04:55:15 PM »
I think it would be cool to make a ground pounding small block out of it.. ~;  either that or a mild (but considerably more powerful than what is currently offered) street engine. Haven't decided yet. I get the last vote.  ;D

I think you can achieve that with just a stock V65 cam. Hemi heads gotta' flow better than the Heron heads. <shrug>  ;D
Charlie

Offline jacksonracingcomau

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #268 on: November 30, 2014, 02:10:55 AM »
  2mm more lift and 10 deg more duration is what I'd be looking at if I were wanting to have something that made power a bit higher in the rev range but was still decent to ride (and it'll idle too). I'd reassemble what you have with the aero cam and light "checking springs", add the extra lift via the adjustment screws, and rotate the engine as Martin says to check for clearances at all points near TDC. I'd even add a bit extra lift to mimic the extra 10 degrees  of duration since what that will do is get the valve open sooner and closer to the piston. This will get you an idea of what you are dealing with....if you have a mile of clearance then great! If things are close then more careful steps will need be taken. I like the thought of more cam in this one!

   Terry

I wouldn't add lift  via adjusters, very solid way to check, you're waiting to hit
I use dial gauge to measure what clearance I have, if trying an unknown I'd rather give extra clearance first, then measure till it hits
Just me

Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #269 on: November 30, 2014, 06:39:48 AM »
Ed thinks that unless I want to go "full Monty" on it I just might as well put a V65 cam in it and call it good.
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
87 AeroLario
95 Skorpion tour
22 Royal Enfield Classic 3 fiddy
 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
Albert Einstein

 

20 Ounce Stainless Steel Double Insulated Tumbler
Buy a quality tumbler and support the forum at the same time!
Better than a YETI! BPA and Lead free.
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