Author Topic: Aero engine rescue  (Read 398577 times)

Offline jacksonracingcomau

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #270 on: November 30, 2014, 07:09:57 PM »
Just out of left field
From on here, not my personal experience, Larios did have a cam wear problem (like current 8V but blamed on valve spring pressure)
Just maybe the .021" difference is worn lobe on Lario, aero cam is exactly the same but unworn ?
Would explain the duration figures being the same.

In which case, if as stated here, Lario & V65 were the same, fitting orig V65 cam will not be changing anything.

Lift in book for Lario and V65 cam anyone ?




Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #271 on: December 01, 2014, 05:38:59 AM »
Just out of left field
From on here, not my personal experience, Larios did have a cam wear problem (like current 8V but blamed on valve spring pressure)
Just maybe the .021" difference is worn lobe on Lario, aero cam is exactly the same but unworn ?
Would explain the duration figures being the same.

In which case, if as stated here, Lario & V65 were the same, fitting orig V65 cam will not be changing anything.

Lift in book for Lario and V65 cam anyone ?

That's apparently not for the great unwashed masses to know. I haven't found diddley squat about the cams. Shirley  ;D though, if the Lario cam was worn that much there'd be signs of it? I'll ping Milich one more time. He's probably getting tired of me bugging him.




Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
87 AeroLario
95 Skorpion tour
22 Royal Enfield Classic 3 fiddy
 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
Albert Einstein

Offline lucky phil

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #272 on: December 01, 2014, 06:16:02 AM »
You dont measure cam timing at the pushrod you measure it at the valve. Trying to measure cam specs at the pushrod doesnt take into account the rocker ratio and the change of contact point of the rocker foot on the valve tip as the rocker rotates through it travel. So even if the rocker ratio is 1:1 you still wont have exact cam timing figures.
If the rocker ratio is not 1:1 then the lift figures will be wrong as well.
If you measure at the valve you can then compare cam timing from spec sheets.
Ciao
« Last Edit: December 01, 2014, 06:19:09 AM by lucky phil »
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Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #273 on: December 01, 2014, 06:31:40 AM »
You dont measure cam timing at the pushrod you measure it at the valve. Trying to measure cam specs at the pushrod doesnt take into account the rocker ratio and the change of contact point of the rocker foot on the valve tip as the rocker rotates through it travel. So even if the rocker ratio is 1:1 you still wont have exact cam timing figures.
If the rocker ratio is not 1:1 then the lift figures will be wrong as well.
If you measure at the valve you can then compare cam timing from spec sheets.
Ciao

Aw.. you're still upset because I put those Gaudy Gaiters on the Lario.  ~; ;D Crane cams info says to it just like I did it. http://www.cranecams.com/bulletins_listview.php?s_id=5
I won't argue total lift at the valve, though.. you're absolutely right. When I get around to it, I'm going to pull a head and check clearances, figure compression ratio, etc. to add to the collective knowledge of this engine.
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
87 AeroLario
95 Skorpion tour
22 Royal Enfield Classic 3 fiddy
 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
Albert Einstein

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #273 on: December 01, 2014, 06:31:40 AM »

Offline lucky phil

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #274 on: December 01, 2014, 07:39:36 AM »
Aw.. you're still upset because I put those Gaudy Gaiters on the Lario.  ~; ;D Crane cams info says to it just like I did it. http://www.cranecams.com/bulletins_listview.php?s_id=5
I won't argue total lift at the valve, though.. you're absolutely right. When I get around to it, I'm going to pull a head and check clearances, figure compression ratio, etc. to add to the collective knowledge of this engine.
Crane make cams, they dont build engines. What engine builders are interested in is what happens at the valve after all the clearances are taken up and the pushrods flex etc etc.
The same reason serious engine builders dont use light dummy valve springs when doing valve timing and working out rocker post heights etc.
Ciao
If you're not living on the edge you're taking up to much room.

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #275 on: December 01, 2014, 07:49:41 AM »
Crane make cams, they dont build engines. What engine builders are interested in is what happens at the valve after all the clearances are taken up and the pushrods flex etc etc.
The same reason serious engine builders dont use light dummy valve springs when doing valve timing and working out rocker post heights etc.
Ciao

Certainly, but degreeing a cam is degreeing a cam. We were looking at the differences between the aero cam and a Lario cam.
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
87 AeroLario
95 Skorpion tour
22 Royal Enfield Classic 3 fiddy
 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
Albert Einstein

Offline lucky phil

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #276 on: December 01, 2014, 08:39:56 AM »
Certainly, but degreeing a cam is degreeing a cam. We were looking at the differences between the aero cam and a Lario cam.
Yes I understand Chuck you are doing a comparative exercise using the same methodology and I applaude you for the work you put in to show this stuff but Part of that good stuff is the info thats passed on.
For the purposes of people that are reading this thread and may be thinking of using it as a reference for doing their own cam timing its good to point out that your method isnt exactly the standard procedure.
As for the Lario gators, well we have a saying here in Australia......you cant polish a turd,.....but you can roll it in glitter. Or put gators on it.
Ciao
« Last Edit: December 01, 2014, 08:43:32 AM by lucky phil »
If you're not living on the edge you're taking up to much room.

Offline Dick

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #277 on: December 01, 2014, 08:46:27 AM »
You dont measure cam timing at the pushrod you measure it at the valve. Trying to measure cam specs at the pushrod doesnt take into account the rocker ratio and the change of contact point of the rocker foot on the valve tip as the rocker rotates through it travel. So even if the rocker ratio is 1:1 you still wont have exact cam timing figures.
If the rocker ratio is not 1:1 then the lift figures will be wrong as well.
If you measure at the valve you can then compare cam timing from spec sheets.
Ciao

Your right about the rocker ratio, but I believe it will only have an impact on the lift, no impact on duration. Where you can run into trouble is if your going by a manual that is giving you numbers to use measured at a specific point,(e.g.) valve tip, and you decide to measure at pushrod instead. If you measure the duration of cam off a pushrod or lifter as Chuck has, you can time the cam around the lobe center the cam manufacturer has chosen(which is in the numbers you've been given from cam manufacturer). If you don't have the cam specs.,you can still time the cam using lobe center method as Chuck has. JMO.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2014, 09:09:30 AM by Dick »

Offline Dick

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #278 on: December 01, 2014, 08:49:48 AM »
.
The same reason serious engine builders dont use light dummy valve springs when doing valve timing and working out rocker post heights etc.
Ciao

I don't think it would make any difference as valve timing goes. Maybe on rocker post height it would? JMO

Offline kevdog3019

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #279 on: December 01, 2014, 09:11:08 AM »
You dont measure cam timing at the pushrod you measure it at the valve. Trying to measure cam specs at the pushrod doesnt take into account the rocker ratio and the change of contact point of the rocker foot on the valve tip as the rocker rotates through it travel. So even if the rocker ratio is 1:1 you still wont have exact cam timing figures.
If the rocker ratio is not 1:1 then the lift figures will be wrong as well.
If you measure at the valve you can then compare cam timing from spec sheets.
Ciao

As long as Chuck uses the same measure between any two engines, he can compare apples to apples. There's usually a "best" way in any measurement, but even then they must be done the comparably. I don't trust tape measures for true measurement in my shop, but I would trust comparable measurements using the same tape measure. I don't think Chuck did this to show the world how it's done btw.
'86 V65 "Super" Lario
'85 Honda Nighthawk 700s
'86 V65 Lario

Offline lucky phil

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #280 on: December 01, 2014, 09:14:12 AM »
Your right about the rocker ratio, but I believe it will only have an impact on the lift, no impact on duration. Where you can run into trouble is if your going by a manual that is giving you numbers to use measured at a specific point,(e.g.) valve tip, and you decide to measure at pushrod instead. If you measure the duration of cam off a pushrod or lifter as Chuck has, you can time the cam around the lobe center the cam manufacturer has chosen(which is in the numbers you've been given from cam manufacturer). If you don't have the cam specs.,you can still time the cam using lobe center method as Chuck has. JMO.
Whenever you convert the cam information from a linier to a rotary motion you will get a variation it may be small but it will be there. same as the cam timing will be slightly different at the valve if you convert a hard foot tipped rocker to a roller tipped rocker with no other changes.
Ciao
If you're not living on the edge you're taking up to much room.

Offline Dick

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #281 on: December 01, 2014, 09:21:52 AM »
Whenever you convert the cam information from a linier to a rotary motion you will get a variation it may be small but it will be there. same as the cam timing will be slightly different at the valve if you convert a hard foot tipped rocker to a roller tipped rocker with no other changes.
Ciao

That is exactly why you should time off a lifter using the chosen lobe center. More accurate, IMO.

father guzzi obrian

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #282 on: December 01, 2014, 09:56:19 AM »
Ok, white Veglia tach and glitter on the gaiters, that about wraps it up, lets roll.... ~;

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #283 on: December 01, 2014, 10:05:05 AM »
Your right about the rocker ratio, but I believe it will only have an impact on the lift, no impact on duration. Where you can run into trouble is if your going by a manual that is giving you numbers to use measured at a specific point,(e.g.) valve tip, and you decide to measure at pushrod instead. If you measure the duration of cam off a pushrod or lifter as Chuck has, you can time the cam around the lobe center the cam manufacturer has chosen(which is in the numbers you've been given from cam manufacturer). If you don't have the cam specs.,you can still time the cam using lobe center method as Chuck has. JMO.

To the best of my knowledge (admittedly almost nonexistent)  ;D the numbers on a cam card from the manufacturer are done this way. <shrug>
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
87 AeroLario
95 Skorpion tour
22 Royal Enfield Classic 3 fiddy
 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
Albert Einstein

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #284 on: December 01, 2014, 10:09:09 AM »
Ok, white Veglia tach and glitter on the gaiters, that about wraps it up, lets roll.... ~;
;D
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
87 AeroLario
95 Skorpion tour
22 Royal Enfield Classic 3 fiddy
 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
Albert Einstein

Moto

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #285 on: December 01, 2014, 12:42:47 PM »
Central Indiana looks more temperate than I remember! Dang Global Warming.


Offline jacksonracingcomau

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #286 on: December 01, 2014, 06:28:24 PM »
To the best of my knowledge (admittedly almost nonexistent)  ;D the numbers on a cam card from the manufacturer are done this way. <shrug>

Grinder I use gives lobe centres to time it, obviously he knows the duration, he ground it, his lobe centres recommendation always my starting point.
I do this at pushrod, is exactly same crank angle as at valve.
Light springs for checking valve clearances, I don't like leaning on heavy springs, risk of valve damage (yes, I've done that, once)
Plasticence on piston is fine for valve to piston IF you know there is some.
Valve to valve is hard on pushrod engine by definition, using numbers from grinder (ie lift at max overlap) always first step, me, I measure 3 times, cut once
Light springs with dial gauge works for me, after looksee , no springs, just holding valves in head

Solder for squish

Chuck
re orig cam in Lario, measure all 4 lobes peak lift, if one you measured was worn .021" very unlikely all 4 are equally worn
But I'm sure lift on that cam is known by someone on here, especially if as claimed before it is std V65

Vasco DG

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #287 on: December 01, 2014, 06:35:36 PM »
For valve to valve I just use a pair of wooden blocks to support the head. Use carb springs to hold the valves. Assemble the rocker gear etc and then turn the cam. Peer up into combustion chamber and see/measure V-T-V.

Pete

Offline jacksonracingcomau

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #288 on: December 01, 2014, 06:52:10 PM »
For valve to valve I just use a pair of wooden blocks to support the head. Use carb springs to hold the valves. Assemble the rocker gear etc and then turn the cam. Peer up into combustion chamber and see/measure V-T-V.

Pete

I use carb springs too
Wooden blocks in lieu of barrels ?
I get that but dial gauge on valve still needed to measure clearance as far as I can see, very hard to measure v-v with anything else.
Seeing a mile obviously good enough, seeing .030, .040 or .050, beyond these old eyes,

OHC engines totally different just hold head upside down with cam installed

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #289 on: December 01, 2014, 06:53:45 PM »
Quote
Chuck
re orig cam in Lario, measure all 4 lobes peak lift, if one you measured was worn .021" very unlikely all 4 are equally worn
But I'm sure lift on that cam is known by someone on here, especially if as claimed before it is std V65

Strangely, enough.. Ed Milich says:
stock v65 cam is .225" cam lift, .285" valve lift. 1.27 rocker ratio

So now we have V65.. Lario.. and Aero, each with different lift. <scratching head>
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
87 AeroLario
95 Skorpion tour
22 Royal Enfield Classic 3 fiddy
 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
Albert Einstein

Vasco DG

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #290 on: December 01, 2014, 08:09:04 PM »
I use carb springs too
Wooden blocks in lieu of barrels ?
I get that but dial gauge on valve still needed to measure clearance as far as I can see, very hard to measure v-v with anything else.
Seeing a mile obviously good enough, seeing .030, .040 or .050, beyond these old eyes,

OHC engines totally different just hold head upside down with cam installed

I just use feelers between 'em if I'm unsure.

Pete

Offline lucky phil

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #291 on: December 01, 2014, 10:08:59 PM »
Strangely, enough.. Ed Milich says:
stock v65 cam is .225" cam lift, .285" valve lift. 1.27 rocker ratio

So now we have V65.. Lario.. and Aero, each with different lift. <scratching head>
As I said Chuck, if you measure at the valve you can't go wrong. Rocker ratio is part of the equation as are the other variables.
Ciao
If you're not living on the edge you're taking up to much room.

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #292 on: December 02, 2014, 07:04:40 AM »
As I said Chuck, if you measure at the valve you can't go wrong. Rocker ratio is part of the equation as are the other variables.
Ciao


You're preaching to the choir here.  ;D I'll have the head off and have a look no matter what. No need to take a chance on wrecking some unobtainium stuff.. and.. we need  :PICS!:
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
87 AeroLario
95 Skorpion tour
22 Royal Enfield Classic 3 fiddy
 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
Albert Einstein

Offline Unkept

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #293 on: December 02, 2014, 07:47:57 AM »
You're preaching to the choir here.  ;D I'll have the head off and have a look no matter what. No need to take a chance on wrecking some unobtainium stuff.. and.. we need  :PICS!:

 :+1

It's all enthralling... Let me know when you plan on starting it up, and I'll try to come down for a first start video.

It's bound to be Guzzi YouTube gold.  ;D

-Joe

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #294 on: December 02, 2014, 08:24:46 AM »
:+1

It's all enthralling... Let me know when you plan on starting it up, and I'll try to come down for a first start video.

It's bound to be Guzzi YouTube gold.  ;D

-Joe

 ;D Riiiiight..
Other stuff going on right now. I'll only get an hour here and there for a while, most likely.
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
87 AeroLario
95 Skorpion tour
22 Royal Enfield Classic 3 fiddy
 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
Albert Einstein

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #295 on: December 04, 2014, 11:10:59 AM »
Well, I have some free time this morning, so time for some more small block porn. Pull the rockers..

Nice casting.

Note to self.. order o rings.

“That gotta Hemi innit?”



Carb springs, huh. Got some. Off to the Ancient Airlines High Tech Head Assembly Bench (tm).. <sweating bullets> Do not damage Mr Unobtainium head..


Torque her down, and have a look at TDC. .160” on the intake, .206 on the exhaust. I’m not sure what that tells us, but thought I oughta do it..  ;D

Now, for the acid test. Since these valves point at each other, they’re bound to hit sooner or later. We need to find where they are both open the farthest during the cycle. Reassembled the valve train. Pulled the intake casting off so I could see a little better. Nice. Don’t know if the later big blocks did away with the gasket or not..

This looks like the spot. 5 degrees after TDC with both valves open. Set the indicator on zero and push the valve open until it hits. Shirley  ;) thery'll be plenty of clearance. Doink doink.. Hmmmm.. can that be right?

Let’s move the setup a little and make absolutely certain that  was correct.
Yep. .065”  :o Probably a good thing I just didn’t drop that cam with 2mm more lift in it.

  Looks like a V65 cam is in our future.
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
87 AeroLario
95 Skorpion tour
22 Royal Enfield Classic 3 fiddy
 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
Albert Einstein

Offline kckershovel

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #296 on: December 04, 2014, 11:25:50 AM »
I am excited about this project.

Online normzone

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #297 on: December 04, 2014, 11:53:16 AM »
I am also. I have a dumb question...

I think I noted about six or eight pages ago that this device has some provenance with the folks at Sierra Nevada Corporation.

I know they have A LOT of different divisions, and being governmentally inclined they tend to be close mouthed.

And I know that  having empirical data provided to you would take at least half the fun out of this project.

But those folks are one of my customers, and I can't help but wonder - have you considered seeing if you can find a friendly soul somewhere inside the project to share whatever documentation they could legally share with you regarding this engine?

(prepares for NSA to visit me and ask me about my loyalty to the state)   ;)
That's the combustion chamber of the turbo shaft. It is supposed to be on fire. You just don't usually see it but the case and fairing fell off.

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #298 on: December 04, 2014, 12:11:20 PM »
I am also. I have a dumb question...

I think I noted about six or eight pages ago that this device has some provenance with the folks at Sierra Nevada Corporation.

I know they have A LOT of different divisions, and being governmentally inclined they tend to be close mouthed.

And I know that  having empirical data provided to you would take at least half the fun out of this project.

But those folks are one of my customers, and I can't help but wonder - have you considered seeing if you can find a friendly soul somewhere inside the project to share whatever documentation they could legally share with you regarding this engine?

(prepares for NSA to visit me and ask me about my loyalty to the state)   ;)
Actually, I have a close relationship with Sierra Nevada, and I'm sworn to secrecy, other than they give me empty pushrod boxes.. ;D
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
87 AeroLario
95 Skorpion tour
22 Royal Enfield Classic 3 fiddy
 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
Albert Einstein

Offline kevdog3019

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #299 on: December 04, 2014, 01:41:45 PM »
Those are beautiful heads, pieces and domed pistons. Looks like you found the data you need to move forward. Interesting to say the least. Reminds me of my project last year; the unknown.   :bike
Kevin
'86 V65 "Super" Lario
'85 Honda Nighthawk 700s
'86 V65 Lario

 

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