Author Topic: Aero engine rescue  (Read 398666 times)

Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #450 on: January 08, 2015, 07:57:19 AM »
the 130 main is a joke, the #50 idle jets will make the engine rpm "float" around 1500,
with no matter how far you turn the idle mixture adjustment screw inwards.

that said, I do not like your manifolds.  They are too long and too much bend inside the frame,
I'd get them way shorter, somewhat straighter, and have the sidecovers altered instead.
I 've built several bikes ( and inlet manifolds ) by myself so far, this is not the way I would do it.

get bigger jets, you know you want to.
we run 58/60 pilot jets and mains from 142 to 150, at sea level.

 :BEER:

I'm not thrilled about them, either.. but.. if they are shorter they'll seriously foul the starter. Side covers aren't a problem.


Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
87 AeroLario
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 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
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Offline kevdog3019

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #451 on: January 08, 2015, 08:18:41 AM »
What atomizer is in there?  I've got 65 idle, 264 atom, 168 main and I'm just coming off lean on super Lario. With 265 atom my 150 main was too great below wot.
36 carbies

I suspect you'll need more fuel. A little interference with starter is fine. Maybe think Valeo for size or a little tilting with the Bosch in place.
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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #452 on: January 08, 2015, 08:41:04 AM »
I reckon that guestimating the jetting for carbs on an engine that has never run carbs and is not like any other guzzi is a bit premature. fire it up and see what it needs.  You are in uncharted territory here Chuck, unless you can download "Jetting carbs for an FI Aero Engine for dummies" I think you have to get it running to make much progress on carbs... Just sayin, and you know my expansive background in this sort of thing.... ;D

Offline kevdog3019

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #453 on: January 08, 2015, 10:21:35 AM »
I reckon that guestimating the jetting for carbs on an engine that has never run carbs and is not like any other guzzi is a bit premature. fire it up and see what it needs.  You are in uncharted territory here Chuck, unless you can download "Jetting carbs for an FI Aero Engine for dummies" I think you have to get it running to make much progress on carbs... Just sayin, and you know my expansive background in this sort of thing.... ;D
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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #453 on: January 08, 2015, 10:21:35 AM »

lawries

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #454 on: January 08, 2015, 10:43:09 AM »
Don't recall where I got the idea but I have believed for a long time that long inlet manifolds were a good thing? No matter the aesthetics. My forgetery is much better than it used to be :D
I guess you folks will give me the low down but:

1) plenty time for air/fuel mix
2) cooler carbs
3) more consistent air flow, maybe?

Does anyone here use the vacuum gauge hole to link the inlet manifolds? For balance, even fuelling, after normal balance process ofc

Offline rocker59

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #455 on: January 08, 2015, 10:55:21 AM »
Don't recall where I got the idea but I have believed for a long time that long inlet manifolds were a good thing? No matter the aesthetics. My forgetery is much better than it used to be :D
I guess you folks will give me the low down but:

1) plenty time for air/fuel mix
2) cooler carbs
3) more consistent air flow, maybe?

Does anyone here use the vacuum gauge hole to link the inlet manifolds? For balance, even fuelling, after normal balance process ofc

The basic rule of thumb is longer intake runners improve low rpm performance and the torque curve, while short intake runners improve high rpm performance and horsepower curve.

Then you get all off into optimum diameter for the length, etc., etc.

A Guzzi engine might benefit from longer runners, but the problem is then where to put the carbs.

 
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Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #456 on: January 08, 2015, 11:09:27 AM »
I was going to post on this, but I see Rocker beat me to it. All engines are different, of course, but in general, longer runners increase bottom end torque. Airplane engines use extremely long runners, for instance. Remember the Mopar cross ram?
That said, I'll go with what I have right now. As far as tuning.. I'm sure it will run well enough with what is in the cabs to *start* tuning.
Back from today's Driving Miss Daisy.. Woo Hoo! I get to spend all afternoon in the shop.  ;D
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
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 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
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Online Antietam Classic Cycle

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #457 on: January 08, 2015, 11:14:43 AM »
I was going to post on this, but I see Rocker beat me to it. All engines are different, of course, but in general, longer runners increase bottom end torque. Airplane engines use extremely long runners, for instance. Remember the Mopar cross ram?
That said, I'll go with what I have right now. As far as tuning.. I'm sure it will run well enough with what is in the cabs to *start* tuning.
Back from today's Driving Miss Daisy.. Woo Hoo! I get to spend all afternoon in the shop.  ;D

 ;-T

Nobody has been "down this road before" so the usual "rules" may not apply.
Charlie

Offline rocker59

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #458 on: January 08, 2015, 12:06:32 PM »
and I can hardly wait to see a dyno sheet!

 
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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #459 on: January 08, 2015, 01:50:55 PM »
this is a standard 750cc two cylinder 4 stroke engine after all.
the jets are too small, remember my words, when you start it up
and it will not even idle properly, once the choke is put back in.

 :BEER:

Online bad Chad

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #460 on: January 08, 2015, 02:47:31 PM »
I don't mean to be a dick here, but I am what I am  ;), when is this here project going to be subject to ignition?

After so many pages, don't get me wrong, I enjoy them, but I get confused over distance plus time, when can a mere watcher like me expect Judgment Day on this?

All the best,
bad Chad
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Online Antietam Classic Cycle

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #461 on: January 08, 2015, 03:57:32 PM »
this is a standard 750cc two cylinder 4 stroke engine after all.

The jetting is for a 949 cc two cylinder 4 stroke engine after all.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2015, 04:08:16 PM by Antietam Classic Cycle »
Charlie

Offline lucky phil

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #462 on: January 08, 2015, 04:03:30 PM »
Don't recall where I got the idea but I have believed for a long time that long inlet manifolds were a good thing? No matter the aesthetics. My forgetery is much better than it used to be :D
I guess you folks will give me the low down but:

1) plenty time for air/fuel mix
2) cooler carbs
3) more consistent air flow, maybe?

Does anyone here use the vacuum gauge hole to link the inlet manifolds? For balance, even fuelling, after normal balance process ofc
Apart from the obvious purpose of an intake manifold a long intake manifold also needs to atomise the intake charge via heat.
The problem with long intake runners that arn't heated is that the fuel droplets fall out of suspension and the engine has variable mixture. This is why most cars with longer runners have heated manifolds and also why long manifold engines seem cold blooded on start up and need a lot of time on the choke. Until the manifold is up to temp the fuel tends to drop out of suspension and pools in the manifold causing poor mixture control.Choke is added to compensate for the fuel thats fallen out of suspension and cant effectivley be burned. Its a bit of a viscious circle. All things being equal its one of the advantages of multi carb engines with short runners, there's very little manifold that requires bringing up to temp so generally they require less time on the choke. Applies to carbed and injected engines but carbed are more sensitive to intake length. The closer the venturi is in a carbed engine to the intake valve generally the better. Greater signal strength to the jets.
Ciao  
« Last Edit: January 08, 2015, 04:06:14 PM by lucky phil »
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Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #463 on: January 08, 2015, 04:25:37 PM »
I don't mean to be a dick here, but I am what I am  ;), when is this here project going to be subject to ignition?

After so many pages, don't get me wrong, I enjoy them, but I get confused over distance plus time, when can a mere watcher like me expect Judgment Day on this?

All the best,
bad Chad

Chad, my man.. it should have been done a long time ago. I expected it to take a month of spare but pretty regular time. Dorcia's surgeries/rehab, etc. has taken most of it. Today was the first time I had 4 hours. I actually got something done.  ;D
It'll be done when it's done, but starting today I'll get a lot more time to work on it as long as Ed doesn't come up with a (yuck) job.  ;)
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
87 AeroLario
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 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
Albert Einstein

Rumba

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #464 on: January 08, 2015, 04:55:41 PM »
The jetting is for a 949 cc two cylinder 4 stroke engine after all.

works well with 850cc too  ;D  the carb has got no idea to which engine it has been mounted anyways.  ;)
after all, compression ratio is more important than cc's, the bogus stock setting does work only with
stock pipes, airbox and at serious altitude I believe.

 :pop





Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #465 on: January 08, 2015, 05:28:57 PM »
Ok, let's make the flanges. I'm using what I found, which is some hot rolled steel .320" thick. Since this isn't a union shop.. ;D ~; I can run two machines at a time. While the robot is cutting out the flange, I'm grinding the first one flat. Actually, I need to see my committeeman.. the boss only gives me $40 and three beers a week for labor in her operation.  ;D :BEER:

Nice and flat.

Might as well use the kool O rings. The groove is .111" dp. X .175" wide.

Cutting the O ring groove.

Alrighty, now!

This is fun.   ;D I love to make stuff. Mostly I do stupid production work that keeps the woof from the door. Not fun. Tomorrow, we'll do the final fitup and weld the manifolds.
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
87 AeroLario
95 Skorpion tour
22 Royal Enfield Classic 3 fiddy
 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
Albert Einstein

Offline jacksonracingcomau

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #466 on: January 08, 2015, 06:43:02 PM »
Lovely work chuck
my 2c
Long manifolds
we built a hot 120cc XR100 for my son to race enduros against 2 stroke 85cc, really against all odds. My mate Greg (since passed RIP) did the head and built manifold about 8" long (but dead straight) we ran a 30mm PHF, I forget jetting but it would pull up any hill in any gear. He won some rounds and got second in State champs, I remain convinced of value, never tried on Guzzi as I have grunt from nowhere already. As said above it may run out of steam up top but we never had a cold start / running issue, one kick, normal warm up, go.
Curve is maybe going to restrict a bit much but you can only try, looks hard to get to LH enrichener lever.


Jetting is not what it seems ie 40mm PHM on 850 LM mains at 165-175 (IMHE) will drown a 950 , 992 even more so, happy around 150, on my 1100 Cali even less
So I'd expect your 750 to want more fuel than an 850 or 950 not less, but agree with all start with what you have.


Looking forward to more, if manifolds make it untuneable, I'm sure you'll knock up more (or suffer the orig straight ones)

Offline normzone

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #467 on: January 08, 2015, 06:56:16 PM »
Nice to see an old school depth gage used - next you'll be telling me I'm not the only one who knows how to use vernier instruments.
That's the combustion chamber of the turbo shaft. It is supposed to be on fire. You just don't usually see it but the case and fairing fell off.

Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #468 on: January 08, 2015, 07:10:49 PM »
Nice to see an old school depth gage used - next you'll be telling me I'm not the only one who knows how to use vernier instruments.

Old school??? Couldn't be. I bought it new..  ;D
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
87 AeroLario
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 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
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Offline SED

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #469 on: January 08, 2015, 08:45:08 PM »
Thank You Chuck
Love this thread!  ;-T

The journey is 90% of the reward, so don't listen to bad impatient Chad - I am willing to wait for the start up!  ;D

That looks like a Starrett protractor.  My machinist grandfather used Starrett micrometers and someday I hope to inherit them.  Wish I had half the skills exhibited here!
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oldbike54

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #470 on: January 08, 2015, 09:36:43 PM »
This is all so far above my pay grade it scares me to open the thread  ::) Nice work Chuckie , even for a beemer hater  ;D

  Dusty

Offline rboe

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #471 on: January 08, 2015, 09:41:52 PM »
Old school is that old Sharp calculator!   :bow
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Offline SED

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #472 on: January 08, 2015, 09:43:53 PM »
Old school is that old Sharp calculator!   :bow
Reverse Polish?
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Offline rboe

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #473 on: January 08, 2015, 09:47:25 PM »
Nope. Has an equal sign.
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Online bad Chad

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #474 on: January 08, 2015, 10:26:40 PM »
Wow. Now I really do feel like a duffus.  But that's my own doing, I need to learn some patience.


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Offline SED

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #475 on: January 08, 2015, 10:46:17 PM »
 ;-T
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Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #476 on: January 09, 2015, 05:49:37 AM »
Old school is that old Sharp calculator!   :bow

 ;D I programmed that sucker in Basic back in the 80s, I think. It has several things that I used to use regularly such as triangle solving, tilt and rotate for compound angles, metric to Merican, etc. When the battery dies  :o I'm screwed. I wouldn't go to that trouble again, and don't remember the language.
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
87 AeroLario
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22 Royal Enfield Classic 3 fiddy
 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
Albert Einstein

Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #477 on: January 09, 2015, 05:56:47 AM »
the 130 main is a joke, the #50 idle jets will make the engine rpm "float" around 1500,
with no matter how far you turn the idle mixture adjustment screw inwards.

that said, I do not like your manifolds.  They are too long and too much bend inside the frame,
I'd get them way shorter, somewhat straighter, and have the sidecovers altered instead.
I 've built several bikes ( and inlet manifolds ) by myself so far, this is not the way I would do it.

get bigger jets, you know you want to.
we run 58/60 pilot jets and mains from 142 to 150, at sea level.

 :BEER:



This is from my maintenance records when I rejetted the Strada. It is 1000cc with the 36 pumpers..

Quote
2-2-11   . Changed to: K18 needle with clip on 3rd notch, idle jet 50, main jet 142, needle jet 268AB. If mileage suffers, Charles from LC says he’s running the same setup with 52 idle, stock 130 main, 6mm cutaway.
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
87 AeroLario
95 Skorpion tour
22 Royal Enfield Classic 3 fiddy
 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
Albert Einstein

Offline rboe

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #478 on: January 09, 2015, 09:18:54 AM »
I got hooked on RPN in college so I keep my HP's batteries. Bought RPN calc. apps for the iPad/iPhone too. And laptop. Just too easy to keep going with RPN (kinda guzzi content).  :pop
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Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #479 on: January 09, 2015, 11:17:53 AM »
Finished up the flanges this morning, Chad.  ;D Yesterday evening I was stewing about how to make a smooth transition from the ID of the intake runner to the diameter of the intake port in the head. That is what I was using the handheld computer for.. solving a triangle. It said I needed to cut a 26.2 degree angle. I could bump it out on the cnc, but it wouldn't be smooth. I could go down to the other shop, crank the head of a Bridgeport over to 26 degrees, and cut it on a rotary table, but that would take forever..and.. it's cold and blowing up a storm.
So, I decided to do it on my toy lathe.  ;D moved over to the center of the flange and blew a 1 1/2 end mill through the fixture so I could hold it in the little 3 jaw chuck.

Then  I set the cross slide on 26 degrees, and took light cuts. A "real" lathe could have done it in one pass, but this little sucker did fine taking .005-.010" cuts. Patience, grasshopper.  ;D These little lathes "can' do nice work.

Now we have a register for the tubing to sit in and a smooth transition down to the head.

Time for final fitup and welding after lunch.
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
87 AeroLario
95 Skorpion tour
22 Royal Enfield Classic 3 fiddy
 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
Albert Einstein

 

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