Who Likes Air Cooled ?

[SmithSwede]

There are lots of reasons to appreciate a Guzzi.  Who here likes them because they are air cooled?

This no doubt reveals the workings of a warped mind, but I admit that when I'm droning down the highway, mile after mile, hour after hour, I get real satisfaction from thinking that one thing that absolutely won't go wrong is something with my cooling system!  If I'm moving, it's working. 

Yeah, yeah.  I know in theory that water cooling is mature, reliable technology.  Be that as it may--my life experience sure has involved a lot of problems with water cooling, both bikes and cars.   As recently as a few months ago on both a Subaru and a Jeep. 

Air-cooling has been trouble free for me. 

[Bonafide Bob]

There are lots of reasons to appreciate a Guzzi.  Who here likes them because they are air cooled?

This no doubt reveals the workings of a warped mind, but I admit that when I'm droning down the highway, mile after mile, hour after hour, I get real satisfaction from thinking that one thing that absolutely won't go wrong is something with my cooling system!  If I'm moving, it's working. 

Yeah, yeah.  I know in theory that water cooling is mature, reliable technology.  Be that as it may--my life experience sure has involved a lot of problems with water cooling, both bikes and cars.   As recently as a few months ago on both a Subaru and a Jeep. 

I have been riding sixty years, all on air cooled bikes and see no reason to change now.
Bob

Air-cooling has been trouble free for me.

[fotoguzzi]

I do!

[Triple Jim]

I like it too.  My home backup generator is an air cooled diesel too.

[canuguzzi]

Bet the answers you get would be different if the question was:

If you had a choice between two Moto Guzzi bikes, one air cooled and the other liquid cooled but made to appear identical aside from a well design and barely noticeable radiator, which would you choose?

Thinking the wrenchers would go air cooled and everyone else liquid cooled.

[wrbix]

It's all well and good, but we must be cognizant of the decreased cooling efficiency due to global climate change.

[unclepete]

The simplest solutions are often the most robust .
Like air cooling , gravity flow fueling ( carbs ) , plain brakes ( no ABS ) , paper maps , points ignition , wood stove in the house ...

[canuguzzi]

Uh oh.

[wrbix]

Uh oh.

What? Something I said?

[Bob Wegman]

The ones with radiators are air cooled as are the ones without radiators.  One cools the engine by air cooling the castings, the other cools the engine by the air flowing through the radiator.  Both air cooled.

[lucian]

I like me air luke warm. 

[oldbike54]

The simplest solutions are often the most robust .
Like air cooling , gravity flow fueling ( carbs ) , plain brakes ( no ABS ) , paper maps , points ignition , wood stove in the house ...

 Pedal powered computers 

 

I like me air luke warm. 

 Me too 


 Oh , air cooling is cool .



  Dusty

[unclepete]

My computer is also air cooled .

[bad Chad]

I'm no wrench, but I prefer air cooling for motorcycles.  They are a natural platform to take advantage of free air.

[swordds]

Well, when searching for a new motorcycle before buying my V7II Stone the first thing I did was rule out anything liquid cooled.  But reply #6 makes me want to bite my foolish tongue. Those are very good points.  So I can see the advantages of electronic ignition, fuel injection, ABS, etc.  What are the advantages of liquid cooling?  Weights more, requires additional maintenance, adds complexity and potential for breakdown. Is it necessarily more fuel efficient, less polluting, quiter, safer, what?  Electronic ignition is easier to maintain, more fail safe, works better.  Fuel injection gives better milage, easier starting, less maintenance, less polluting, works better.  ABS is safer. Liquid cooling???

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

My ultimate tractor?



My ultimate car?



My ultimate truck?



Answer your question? 

[Sasquatch Jim]

 Me.

[Scud]

I like the simplicity of my air cooled Guzzis and I generally find radiators unattractive on street bikes. But my water-cooled 1992 BMW K75s (radiator hidden behind fairing) and 2007 Husqvarna (radiators tucked out of harms way) are attractive bikes and these models don't tend toward trouble due to the water cooling.

Regarding weight - does water cooling really add weight to a motorcycle? Don't we get to subtract weight from things such as an oil cooler and metal cooling fins on the heads and barrels?

I think BMW in recent years may have got it right with the air and water-cooled boxer. Here is a good article about it. Basically, the water cooling is limited to the heads, so they can get away with a small radiator and use air cooling for other parts of the engine.

http://www.cycleworld.com/2012/12/21/bmws-all-new-water-cooled-boxer-tech-preview/

[tpeever]

Air cooled is where it's at! Simplicity is good.

[Rick4003]

I agree on air cooling is simple and robust, but I don't quite get all the bashing of liquid cooling you see around here... Is liquid cooling really that bad?

On an air cooled engine the temperatures across the engine varies wildly and tolerances have to be made accordingly. Also the engine temperature is very much dependent on the ambient air temperature. If you're stuck in traffic there's a big risk of engine overheating as there is no flow of cooling air, how good is that?

As I see it liquid cooling has many advantages:
Precise control of engine temperature in all situations.
More even heat distribution across the engine no matter how the engine is positioned in the air stream. BMW's K75 and K100 bricks are perfect examples of this.
Smaller risk of heat pockets which enables you to run a higher compression without the risk of pinging.
It is possible to design a much more compact engine putting out the same amount of power as it is easier to get the heat away from the engine.

Ugly radiators? That is something you can design your way out of, remember John Brittens V1000. Try to spot the radiator on that one! 

I have had my FZR600 for almost four years and used it as my daily transport when I was studying and I have never had a problem with the cooling system on it. Is the faliure rate and maintenance of liquid cooling systems really that bad? I haven't had any problems with my bike and no maintenance has been necessary. (I probably should change the coolant, but that will take me maybe half and hour every two/three years.)


I understand the beauty and simplicity of the air cooled bikes and Moto Guzzi's have the ideal engine design to take advantage of air cooling, but is liquid cooling really a deal breaker? If Moto Guzzi made a liquid/air cooled engine similar to BMW's newer boxers/ Triumphs new twins/ Harleys liquid cooled heads would the liquid cooling be a deal breaker for you?

 

[SED]

Me! 

and also love the pictures of Cape Kiwanda and the Tatras. Saw an 87 or 97 about 30 years ago and wondered "what the hell is that!"  Charlie you got a thing for Czech engineering.

BTW - I like air cooling for motorcycles and airplanes to keep the weight, cg and maintenance low, but glad my car has liquid cooling cause it can carry the weight.

[Muzz]

I like air cooled.  All my bikes have had it and it (mostly) has never let me down.  Sadly however I think the tighter and tighter controls on emissions, both particulate and mechanical, will force water cooling to become mandatory in order to comply.

I wonder if future engines can have both, a water jacket mixed with fins on the outside which would still enable tighter tolerances and less mechanical noise, but with some cooling being done by the fins to enable a smaller radiator to be used. <shrug>

[Aaron D.]

I like air cooled engines too, but I see a few misconceptions here.

Liquid cooled can be lighter.

LESS likely to have a breakdown, especially with new bikes .

Maintenance intervals generally longer.

[redrider]

It's all well and good, but we must be cognizant of the decreased cooling efficiency due to global climate change.

Yep, that less than 1 degree Celsius change has the befuddled masses in a tail spin. Why just the other day I saw an aluminum can melt. Well OK, some-one had a friend who knew somebody.....

[Kev m]

The simplest solutions are often the most robust .
Like air cooling , gravity flow fueling ( carbs ) , plain brakes ( no ABS ) , paper maps , points ignition , wood stove in the house ...

Except that statistically this has been proven wrong, at least in the fact that modern vehicles last longer and require less frequent repairs than what l those built when the tech you list was it.

And even if you were to build one new today with the tech it still wouldn't run as clean as what can be achieved by modern tech.

Truth is I confess I selfishly like air cooling for simplicity, but I don't fool myself into thinking it's more robust.

And maybe it's time for me to embrace the alternative (Bonnie, Scout)?

Maybe

[Kev m]

What are the advantages of liquid cooling?  Weights more, requires additional maintenance, adds complexity and potential for breakdown. Is it necessarily more fuel efficient, less polluting, quiter, safer, what?  Electronic ignition is easier to maintain, more fail safe, works better.  Fuel injection gives better milage, easier starting, less maintenance, less polluting, works better.  ABS is safer. Liquid cooling???

In theory water-cooling allows for tighter tolerances, better efficiency (more power, better mileage, cleaner burn, though a at some point you have to sacrifice one for the other), and in theory longer life too (thanks to better temperature control, though whether or not that longer life means anything to a given individual is another matter).

I've been staunchly resisting the minor hassles and cosmetic burdens of water-cooling for 20+ years, but the OEM has done better and better jobs of making that a non-issue and the latest Bonnie might be a tipping point for me.

I'll still resist a water-cooled MG or Harley if they can't do as well, but I'D THEY CAN... hmmm ok, might be time to embrace some change (even if the current air-cooked bikes remain in the fleet just because).

But look at that Bonnie, significantly more torque and better mileage with less pollution, there's a lot to like!

Journalists are now reporting seeing 60+ mpg on their Street Twin tests, which are generally not all sedate riding conditions either. Not bad.

[Perazzimx14]

I do!

[lucydad]

All,

Interesting discussion, thanks.  When I was pondering my V7R a big concern was heat tolerance here in the Houston area, and our torrid summers and stop/go traffic.  After three years, no problems, and I love the look of the engine.  However, there are times I just shut the bike off when stopped.  I have had two liquid cooled bikes:  Kawa EX 500 and now the Triumph STRX.  Both have been reliable, no leaks, and the bikes are superb.

As far as looks, I LOVE the fins on the Guzzi engine sticking out there.  Reminds me of the 2-stroke, free air Ski-Doo Rotax engines on snowmobiles of my youth.  Even better were the expansion chambers. Loud and pretty.

Engines can be lovely things.

[pikipiki]

All other things being roughly equal air cooled, but if the water cooled is significantly more efficient and not needlessly complicated I would seriously consider it.

Ps like the Tatra's , also like the Honda H1300C

Thing is there's a cautionary tail about air cooling on thier website, quite a long read but interesting....

 H1300http://world.honda.com/history/challenge/1968honda1300/index.html

[JoeW]

Air cooling works well on Guzzis and BMWs because the engine layout allows for maximum airflow around the cylinders. Multi cylinder engines really benefit from liquid cooling. I've had 3 liquid cooled bikes, BMW K100RS, Ducati 907ie and  Triumph Sprint ST. The BMW never had overheating issues though, I did! In hot weather in heavy traffic, that bike was hot to be on. The Triumph wasn't as bad but, would stall when I was stuck in bumper to bumper traffic, several times I resorted to riding down the shoulder just to cool the bike down. The 907 was great, heat seemed to be directed away from the rider and it never ran so hot that it would stall.
I like air cooling because of the simplicity and it's virtually maintenance free, unlike a liquid cooling system.