Who Likes Air Cooled ?

[pikipiki]

One advantage of air cooling, and it's probably the only one left (if we set aside asthetics) Air cooled engines a more resilient to being left unrunning for extended periods. Still if you go down that line of thought you'd go side valves too. More a consideration if you have several bikes or live in Alaska, not really an issue for most of us. If we were talk lawn mowers I'd say B&S air cooled side valve over any supposedly more advanced design. With bikes it's different, it is about asthetics for a lot of people, for me ease of maintenance also important and so is good mpg. For the moment Guzzi's are easy maintain and good on gas. Looking at bikes like new triumph 900 Guzzi have to keep competitive. If can be done air cooled then great if not consider water cooling.

[LowRyter]

I do like the simplicity and aesthetics of air cooled motorcycles.  All my bikes are air cooled.  Two V11 Guzzis and 1200 Suzuki Bandit.   The Bandit was the final evolution of the 4 cyl air cooled sportbike motor, although enlarged and milder tune vs GSX-R.   

But apart from simplicity, looks and perhaps weight, the air cooled bikes use more fuel and don't have near the performance.  I think one can easily say that a water pump adds for more performance to the design of an engine than a turbocharger. 

You might try the new BMW water cooled boxers.  I was skeptical with all the hype but when I rode them it was very impressive.  The RS felt as fast as my Bandit.  The RT touring bike is phenomenal.  Now if the prices weren't $20k+ and reliability & cost of ownership wasn't a crapshoot, it would definitely get my consideration. 

[canuguzzi]

I agree on air cooling is simple and robust, but I don't quite get all the bashing of liquid cooling you see around here... Is liquid cooling really that bad?

On an air cooled engine the temperatures across the engine varies wildly and tolerances have to be made accordingly. Also the engine temperature is very much dependent on the ambient air temperature. If you're stuck in traffic there's a big risk of engine overheating as there is no flow of cooling air, how good is that?

As I see it liquid cooling has many advantages:
Precise control of engine temperature in all situations.
More even heat distribution across the engine no matter how the engine is positioned in the air stream. BMW's K75 and K100 bricks are perfect examples of this.
Smaller risk of heat pockets which enables you to run a higher compression without the risk of pinging.
It is possible to design a much more compact engine putting out the same amount of power as it is easier to get the heat away from the engine.

Ugly radiators? That is something you can design your way out of, remember John Brittens V1000. Try to spot the radiator on that one! 

I have had my FZR600 for almost four years and used it as my daily transport when I was studying and I have never had a problem with the cooling system on it. Is the faliure rate and maintenance of liquid cooling systems really that bad? I haven't had any problems with my bike and no maintenance has been necessary. (I probably should change the coolant, but that will take me maybe half and hour every two/three years.)


I understand the beauty and simplicity of the air cooled bikes and Moto Guzzi's have the ideal engine design to take advantage of air cooling, but is liquid cooling really a deal breaker? If Moto Guzzi made a liquid/air cooled engine similar to BMW's newer boxers/ Triumphs new twins/ Harleys liquid cooled heads would the liquid cooling be a deal breaker for you?

 

And they all drive liquid cooled cars.

[Mark West]

I prefer air cooling but mainly for cosmetics and ease of accessibility. I've probably put close to a million miles on cars since I had a problem with a cooling system (blew a hose on an Eagle Premier with 160k miles around 1995) that it would not concern me at all.

[Cool Runnings]

Bet the answers you get would be different if the question was:

If you had a choice between two Moto Guzzi bikes, one air cooled and the other liquid cooled but made to appear identical aside from a well design and barely noticeable radiator, which would you choose?

Thinking the wrenchers would go air cooled and everyone else liquid cooled.

Imagine that  liquid cooled Guzzi V-twin cranking out 130 hp.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

And they all drive liquid cooled cars.

Cars are one thing, motorcycles another thing entirely. Given the choice and means ($$), I'd drive an air-cooled car too.

[canuguzzi]

Cars are one thing, motorcycles another thing entirely. Given the choice and means ($$), I'd drive an air-cooled car too.

Yeah but the reasons so often given for the air cooled engine vs the liquid cooled on motorcycles are reliability.  Reliability is reliability regardless of whether it is a car or motorcycle, it either runs or it doesn't.

The facts do not bear out that liquid cooled motorcycles are inherently less reliable than those using air cooled engines.

Liquid cooled bike engines often require less frequent maintenance than air cooled bikes and run with more consistent performance than air cooled bikes.

Modern liquid cooled engines don't need fussing with from the cooling system standpoint, unless one is the type to walk around with screw drivers just to give er another twist to be sure. They work, are reliable and do an better job of cooling the engine than does air.

It comes down to preference but the differences aren't in factor in reliability or ease of maintenance beyond anecdotal stories.

[bad Chad]

Cars are one thing, motorcycles another thing entirely. Given the choice and means ($$), I'd drive an air-cooled car too.

I would too.  Even though I don't think it makes a much logical sense in an auto, I still like the idea.

[Rough Edge racing]

 With combat aircraft is was always the argument that an air cooled engine is less subject to disabling battle damage than liquid cooled. And for the most part it was true...But the attraction to liquid cooled was more power per displacement and less overall air drag..
  Porsche was about the only higher performance air cooled auto when emissions didn't matter...They were well developed and the in my opinion all the baffles and cooling fan wasn't exactly less complex or more reliable than a water cooled engine...

[lucian]

Cars are one thing, motorcycles another thing entirely. Given the choice and means ($$), I'd drive an air-cooled car too.

Had an air cooled VW bug back  in the day. Damn engine was bullet proof but in winter you would freeze your arse off. Air on a bike, large hot water cabin heater in my cages please.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Yeah but the reasons so often given for the air cooled engine vs the liquid cooled on motorcycles are reliability.  Reliability is reliability regardless of whether it is a car or motorcycle, it either runs or it doesn't.

The facts do not bear out that liquid cooled motorcycles are inherently less reliable than those using air cooled engines.

Liquid cooled bike engines often require less frequent maintenance than air cooled bikes and run with more consistent performance than air cooled bikes.

Modern liquid cooled engines don't need fussing with from the cooling system standpoint, unless one is the type to walk around with screw drivers just to give er another twist to be sure. They work, are reliable and do an better job of cooling the engine than does air.

It comes down to preference but the differences aren't in factor in reliability or ease of maintenance beyond anecdotal stories.

Never needed to rebuild the "air pump" for my air-cooled motorcycles, but have had to rebuild water pumps on a few liquid cooled ones. Never needed to replace the coolant hoses or change the coolant either on my air-cooled motorcycles. Then there are thermostats, cooling fans, fan switches and all of that other stuff. <shrug>

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Had an air cooled VW bug back  in the day. Damn engine was bullet proof but in winter you would freeze your arse off. Air on a bike, large hot water cabin heater in my cages please.

My '62 Beetle had great heat, but zero defrosting. Heat channels (inside the rocker panels) had rusted out, so I ran the heat directly under the front seats. Warm buns, frosty windshield. 

[Triple Jim]

The Beatles I rode in had tons of heat in the winter, and when starting them cold, the heat was there quickly.  They were probably 1970-ish.

[Rough Edge racing]

 I seemed to have a thing for women with Beetles and often wound up repairing them damn ass backward slot cars.. My experience with them differs than the usual stories...Blown reverse gear, broken clutch cables, no defrosting, poor wipers, lack of power, constant rotted muffler that was a bitch to change, a tap in the back and the engine cover stuck shut...And the always fun crowned road curve flip over.  On the other hand it was a smooth ride, the Beetle rode pretty good also for a small car....

[lucian]

Mine was a 74 super beetle. Never had heat or defrosts worth a dime, I eventually put an electric heater  i got from a junk yard with a hose taped to the dash for defrost . Was a fun dependable car and did great in the snow other than the heater issue.  Also had a water filled front bumper. Those were good days for sure.

[rss29]

The Beatles I rode in had tons of heat in the winter, and when starting them cold, the heat was there quickly.  They were probably 1970-ish.

Those had gas fired heaters, didn't they? VW is still doing something similar- the diesels have an electric aux heater since the coolant can take so long to warm up.

[LBC Tenni]

I like simplicity, so prefer air cooled bikes. But I wish I had a dollar for every time I've been stuck in a traffic jam on the Vincent Thomas bridge because an old VW overheated going up the grade. Air and liquid both have their place.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Those had gas fired heaters, didn't they? VW is still doing something similar- the diesels have an electric aux heater since the coolant can take so long to warm up.

Only air-cooled VW that I know of that came with a gas fired heater was the Thing.

[Tom]

Only time I had issues with a Guzzi cooling not working was being overheated in traffic near Central Park and the Waldorf Astoria Hotel IIRC.  LM V in NYC traffic with friend's wife on back.  I started splitting lanes after the stall and she kept her eyes shut.

[80CX100]

Never needed to rebuild the "air pump" for my air-cooled motorcycles, but have had to rebuild water pumps on a few liquid cooled ones. Never needed to replace the coolant hoses or change the coolant either on my air-cooled motorcycles. Then there are thermostats, cooling fans, fan switches and all of that other stuff. <shrug>

This :thumb:http://wildguzzi.com/forum/Smileys/default/thumb.gif

[Triple Jim]

Only time I had issues with a Guzzi cooling not working was being overheated in traffic near Central Park and the Waldorf Astoria Hotel IIRC.  LM V in NYC traffic with friend's wife on back.  I started splitting lanes after the stall and she kept her eyes shut.

That brings up a good point... an air cooled motorcycle engine can't be idled at a standstill very long without overheating.  It's nice to have electric start and a good battery in traffic jams.  When I get stuck and I'm on my H2, I shut it off and fold out the kick starter lever so I'm ready to start it each time traffic moves forward.  That gets old after a while, but I don't tend to ride places where I'm likely to get stuck in big jams very often.

[lucydad]

You want air-cooled?  Here you go:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLmRXWK9yMc

We had to be damn careful with these sleds back in the day.  Ran best at around 0 degrees F.  Idling was kept to minimum, but they needed a warm up before an oval start.  Big reason why hearing in my right ear is damaged.  Great memories though.  Some riders used to throw a bit of snow on the heads to chill them, but that was pretty dicey. 

[Sheepdog]

With the exception of my KLR, every bike I've ever owned was air-cooled. I'm a big V-Dub fan, too. However, I expect the stock fuel mapping on my Vintage and the stock jetting on my Bonneville would have worked much better if the engines were liquid-cooled. I'm afraid that air-cooling is becoming a less viable option in these more ecologically responsible times. I guess I'll just have to adjust to another new paradigm. More is the pity...fins are beautiful.

[Tom]

Only liquid cooled bike I've ever owned.  '72 Water Buffalo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnZs39MVddA

[pikipiki]

Regarding air cooled cars the Beetle was only 40bhp from 1600cc so some were underpowered but not all
Citroen GS 1300cc produced about same as any water cooled euro 1300 of 1970s but sport model matched Alfasud on bhp . Think 72bhp.
Now Honda H1300 in 1970 was 99bhp matching a 2.0 Toyota and sport H1300c was 115bhp probably the most powerful 1300cc air or water cooled car before turbos in 1980s. Problem was everyone bought the Toyota, Honda ditched air cooling in cars and designed the Civic. Shortly after the bikes want water cooled too. Mr Honda had been against air cooling after bad sales of H1300 they were heavily biased to water cooling.
I'd say the air cooled Honda cars are some of the most desirable Japanese cars ever built but what do I know I never owned one? S800, H1300c I'd take either.

[johnr]

The simplest solutions are often the most robust .
Like air cooling , gravity flow fueling ( carbs ) , plain brakes ( no ABS ) , paper maps , points ignition , wood stove in the house ...

This.

I believe that the increased longevity of the machines in question are more down to the materials used, design, and to some extent the methods of manufacture than the systems used.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Regarding air cooled cars the Beetle was only 40bhp from 1600cc 

The single port 1600 was rated at 47 bhp and the dual port 1600 at 50 bhp.

[steven c]

  If a bike appeals to me I really don't give it any thought how it is cooled, though right now all my bikes are air cooled but I have owned three water cooled bikes in the past.

[motogman]

I DO!!!   

[ohiorider]

There's money from the Griso sale sitting in a bank account for the specific purpose of filling the void in the garage.  So, is it to be air-cooled, oil-cooled, liquid cooled  .......  ?

Don't know.  Don't care if it is chain, belt or shaft driven.

There's a bunch of leftover 2014 Honda CB1100 (air/oil cooled) bikes out there for approx. $8500 before even dealing on them.  And from what I've read about them, it might just be a nice do it all machine.  Only objection is the rather short intervals between valve checks, and the fact that it is shim under bucket.

And there's the new Triumph T 120 (air/oil/water cooled) coming on line, but they'll want full MSRP +, and I'm not in the mood to throw money away again.

Then, there's my poor old R100GS that probably needs another $2k thrown at it to make it right, and that might happen.  And she's definitely air-cooled.

So, I guess my choice doesn't really entail whether the bike is air, oil, water cooled.  It's simply ...... do I like the bike.  And to a lesser degree, is it an ok decision economically, or totally stupid, regardless of how much I like the bike?