Author Topic: This might come as a shock.  (Read 3056 times)

Online Huzo

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This might come as a shock.
« on: September 20, 2021, 05:17:59 PM »
Rudy’s thread was becoming badly contaminated by extraneous off topic chatter.
So here’s the thing.
Tris noted that every time it started to gell for him, it drifted off.
Start by separating the spring from the damper.

Realise that the damper has two functions.
1.
To progressively dampen the oscillations of a given spring when deflected from rest.
2.
To give a top and bottom limit to the maximum and minimum length of the captured spring in the assembled unit.
Next..

The load is supported by the spring, not the damper....(ignore for now any pressurised shocks).
Consider a 200 mm spring at rest on the bench.
Now assemble the shock with no preload.
When you sit on the bike, you are effectively sitting on the spring. That un preloaded spring will compress until it reaches it’s compressed length for that load.
Can we call that length 150 mm....(it has compressed 50mm). Remember it has no preload yet.
The spring compressed, (sagged) 50 mm under the combined weight of rider and bike. You will perceive a certain “softness” that you associate with that spring.
Now put the bike back on the centrestand with the rear wheel off the ground...The shock is now “topped out” against it’s top stop, like it was on the bench.

Wind on 25 mm of pre load...Now your spring is 175 mm long.
Roll the bike off the stand and jump back on.
The total LOAD has not changed, so it’ll come as no surprise that the spring compresses back to....?...150 mm
The same as before the preload, but it has only compressed 25 mm under the effect of the load to get to that 150 mm
however it will perform the same as the unpreloaded example, because it has still only been compressed to the same length as the first example (150mm).

Here’s the crunch though.
Because you have only compressed the spring 25 mm in the second example, the eye to eye length will be more than the unpreloaded example and therefore the ride height will be greater...(the damper rod is 25 mm further extended).
But the spring performance will not have altered.

For Tris...

« Last Edit: September 20, 2021, 05:27:59 PM by Huzo »

Offline Caffeineo

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Re: This might come as a shock.
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2021, 09:04:15 PM »
Thanks for posting that. Took a bit of thought but I think I get "the crunch" now. Spring is compressed the same but the shock rides higher in it's travel due to preload on the spring. I got heavier springs on my trials bike and dirt bike as I am "American size". Makes a huge difference on the trials bike but not so much on the dirt bike???? I am not a fast dirt bike rider so maybe that has something to do with it......
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Offline Bulldog9

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Re: This might come as a shock.
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2021, 09:46:45 PM »
Rudy’s thread was becoming badly contaminated by extraneous off topic chatter.
So here’s the thing.
Tris noted that every time it started to gell for him, it drifted off.
Start by separating the spring from the damper.

Realise that the damper has two functions.
1.
To progressively dampen the oscillations of a given spring when deflected from rest.
2.
To give a top and bottom limit to the maximum and minimum length of the captured spring in the assembled unit.
Next..

The load is supported by the spring, not the damper....(ignore for now any pressurised shocks).
Consider a 200 mm spring at rest on the bench.
Now assemble the shock with no preload.
When you sit on the bike, you are effectively sitting on the spring. That un preloaded spring will compress until it reaches it’s compressed length for that load.
Can we call that length 150 mm....(it has compressed 50mm). Remember it has no preload yet.
The spring compressed, (sagged) 50 mm under the combined weight of rider and bike. You will perceive a certain “softness” that you associate with that spring.
Now put the bike back on the centrestand with the rear wheel off the ground...The shock is now “topped out” against it’s top stop, like it was on the bench.

Wind on 25 mm of pre load...Now your spring is 175 mm long.
Roll the bike off the stand and jump back on.
The total LOAD has not changed, so it’ll come as no surprise that the spring compresses back to....?...150 mm
The same as before the preload, but it has only compressed 25 mm under the effect of the load to get to that 150 mm
however it will perform the same as the unpreloaded example, because it has still only been compressed to the same length as the first example (150mm).

Here’s the crunch though.
Because you have only compressed the spring 25 mm in the second example, the eye to eye length will be more than the unpreloaded example and therefore the ride height will be greater...(the damper rod is 25 mm further extended).
But the spring performance will not have altered.

For Tris...

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Offline LowRyter

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Re: This might come as a shock.
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2021, 10:22:24 PM »
Rudy’s thread was becoming badly contaminated by extraneous off topic chatter.
So here’s the thing.
Tris noted that every time it started to gell for him, it drifted off.
Start by separating the spring from the damper.

Realise that the damper has two functions.
1.
To progressively dampen the oscillations of a given spring when deflected from rest.
2.
To give a top and bottom limit to the maximum and minimum length of the captured spring in the assembled unit.
Next..

The load is supported by the spring, not the damper....(ignore for now any pressurised shocks).
Consider a 200 mm spring at rest on the bench.
Now assemble the shock with no preload.
When you sit on the bike, you are effectively sitting on the spring. That un preloaded spring will compress until it reaches it’s compressed length for that load.
Can we call that length 150 mm....(it has compressed 50mm). Remember it has no preload yet.
The spring compressed, (sagged) 50 mm under the combined weight of rider and bike. You will perceive a certain “softness” that you associate with that spring.
Now put the bike back on the centrestand with the rear wheel off the ground...The shock is now “topped out” against it’s top stop, like it was on the bench.

Wind on 25 mm of pre load...Now your spring is 175 mm long.
Roll the bike off the stand and jump back on.
The total LOAD has not changed, so it’ll come as no surprise that the spring compresses back to....?...150 mm
The same as before the preload, but it has only compressed 25 mm under the effect of the load to get to that 150 mm
however it will perform the same as the unpreloaded example, because it has still only been compressed to the same length as the first example (150mm).

Here’s the crunch though.
Because you have only compressed the spring 25 mm in the second example, the eye to eye length will be more than the unpreloaded example and therefore the ride height will be greater...(the damper rod is 25 mm further extended).
But the spring performance will not have altered.

For Tris...

I heard the same thing Saturday when a local rider was checking the suspension & preload on my Ducati.  Nor sure I still understand it.  The bike "feels" stiffer with more preload.  But it does sit up higher with more preload, no question.

BTW- he was impressed that the suspension had so little stiction but the rear shock is too stiff (high speed) compression.  we didn't change anything, it was close enough other than the "Stiff" rear shock.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2021, 10:25:26 PM by LowRyter »
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Re: This might come as a shock.
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2021, 10:22:24 PM »

Online Huzo

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Re: This might come as a shock.
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2021, 11:43:51 PM »
Like a dog on a bone, just gotta make it hard eh?  :cool:
It’s not hard Bulldog.
But that was a bit prolonged because it allows people who are coming to terms with the concept, to work methodically through and identify where their misunderstanding begins.
You start with the bit that’s easy to understand and work your way through.
Caffeineo in the previous post, indicated that there was a light beginning to appear for him. My post was to help people who are on the cusp of getting it, not people such as yourself who (apparently) already do.
How would you have explained it more briefly without leaving out an important aspect ?
I could have done it in two lines to someone who already understood, but I’ve been trying to learn the stuff Beetle does and I like the way he patiently leads the beginner along.
BTW.
I don’t know what the emoji is supposed to convey, can you enlighten me ?
Please don’t make it too hard.... :popcorn:

« Last Edit: September 20, 2021, 11:47:31 PM by Huzo »

Online Huzo

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Re: This might come as a shock.
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2021, 11:50:46 PM »
Thanks for posting that. Took a bit of thought but I think I get "the crunch" now. Spring is compressed the same but the shock rides higher in it's travel due to preload on the spring.
Almost mate.
The SPRING is compressed TO the same length, not compressed BY the same amount.
That would imply that in the second example, it was compressed 50 mm.
This is why an explanation has to be free of ambiguity. I know what you meant to say and you’d have been correct, but these points have to be nailed down to definitions. That’s why I’m criticised for being picky and I know it looks like that.
If we all just agree with BS it’ll be warm and fuzzy, but at the end of the day we’ll still be wrong.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2021, 11:57:55 PM by Huzo »

Offline jacksonracingcomau

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Re: This might come as a shock.
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2021, 01:04:34 AM »
Without wishing to rain on anyone’s parade, research into these subjects may help in understanding motorcycle suspension and the effect of adjusting preload
1/ Progressive springs
2/ Rising rate linkage (n/a v85 but relevant to most monoshock Guzzis)
3/ Angle of shock absorber (very relevant to v85 and noticeable  difference on 21 V7 compared to prior)
To understand the latter read up on 60’s Velocettes with adjustable top shock mount position.

Happy reading, no debate, it is what it is

Offline tris

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Re: This might come as a shock.
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2021, 01:30:35 AM »
Cheers Huzo - this is good of you  :bow: :bow:

Firstly

......Here’s the crunch though.
Because you have only compressed the spring 25 mm in the second example, the eye to eye length will be more than the unpreloaded example and therefore the ride height will be greater...(the damper rod is 25 mm further extended).
But the spring performance will not have altered.

For Tris...

GOT IT ... I think  :grin:
In my words
If you changed the spring for a solid tube (spacer) the preload adjuster just changes the relative position between the top and bottom mounts as they slide on the damper that controls the max and minimum stroke (ignoring the damping effect)

So when I raise the preload to carry my lardy ass the prime objective is to maintain the suspension (say) midway through its travel (I know that's a simplistic position)

Is that right?
« Last Edit: September 21, 2021, 01:45:01 AM by tris »
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Offline tris

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Re: This might come as a shock.
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2021, 01:41:17 AM »
Without wishing to rain on anyone’s parade, research into these subjects may help in understanding motorcycle suspension and the effect of adjusting preload
1/ Progressive springs
2/ Rising rate linkage (n/a v85 but relevant to most monoshock Guzzis)
3/ Angle of shock absorber (very relevant to v85 and noticeable  difference on 21 V7 compared to prior)
To understand the latter read up on 60’s Velocettes with adjustable top shock mount position.

Happy reading, no debate, it is what it is

To be honest this bit I have more understanding of (I THINK) and simplistically

1) Spring gets stiffer the more it compresses
2) That's the application of different length levers
3) That's to do with force vectors

Assuming that is correct, it all falls apart if you don't get the basics which is where I am (was?)  :thumb:
« Last Edit: September 21, 2021, 01:50:07 AM by tris »
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Online Huzo

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Re: This might come as a shock.
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2021, 02:02:43 AM »
Cheers Huzo - this is good of you  :bow: :bow:

Firstly
GOT IT ... I think  :grin:
In my words
If you changed the spring for a solid tube (spacer) the preload adjuster just changes the relative position between the top and bottom mounts as they slide on the damper that controls the max and minimum stroke (ignoring the damping effect)

So when I raise the preload to carry my lardy ass the prime objective is to maintain the suspension (say) midway through its travel (I know that's a simplistic position)

Is that right?
Well if it’s not then I’m not....(but I am).
The simplistic approach is always the best, if you have not introduced variables or inconsistencies into the mix.
Yes Tris, that is correct.
Once you solidify that into your thinking, you’ll be aghast at some of the people you’ll hear saying...
“The bike was too soft in the arse end through turn 4, so I wound on a bit of preload to stiffen it up a bit..”
They’ll do what they think is right then swear black and blue that it was a good idea..(better than the alternative).  :rolleyes:

Online Huzo

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Re: This might come as a shock.
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2021, 02:12:49 AM »
I think the error is made in this type of scenario.
If your forks are going to bottom out, the tendency may be to apply some pre load. This will indeed reduce the tendency to bottom out, but not because the fork travel is reduced (stiffer ride), it is because you have pushed the bottom slider further away and given the staunchions more room to compress before the crash at the end.
The ride quality won’t have changed, but the whole thing is happening further away from the bottom stop and the tendency to bottom out is reduced.

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Re: This might come as a shock.
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2021, 06:25:54 AM »
Great explanation, thanks
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Offline 80CX100

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Re: This might come as a shock.
« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2021, 08:34:24 AM »
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Offline tris

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Re: This might come as a shock.
« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2021, 09:43:35 AM »
In between working  :wink: I've been pondering this!

“The bike was too soft in the arse end through turn 4, so I wound on a bit of preload to stiffen it up a bit..”

Should he have
a) gotten some springs at a higher rate to cope with his weight
b) wound the compression damping up to slow the rate the suspension got to full travel?

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Online Huzo

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Re: This might come as a shock.
« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2021, 11:03:34 AM »
In between working  :wink: I've been pondering this!

Should he have
a) gotten some springs at a higher rate to cope with his weight
b) wound the compression damping up to slow the rate the suspension got to full travel?
(a) Certainly yes
(b) I’d venture to say so

Offline Tom

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Re: This might come as a shock.
« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2021, 01:15:19 PM »
It’s not hard Bulldog.
But that was a bit prolonged because it allows people who are coming to terms with the concept, to work methodically through and identify where their misunderstanding begins.
You start with the bit that’s easy to understand and work your way through.
Caffeineo in the previous post, indicated that there was a light beginning to appear for him. My post was to help people who are on the cusp of getting it, not people such as yourself who (apparently) already do.
How would you have explained it more briefly without leaving out an important aspect ?
I could have done it in two lines to someone who already understood, but I’ve been trying to learn the stuff Beetle does and I like the way he patiently leads the beginner along.
BTW.
I don’t know what the emoji is supposed to convey, can you enlighten me ?
Please don’t make it too hard.... :popcorn:

 :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Re: This might come as a shock.
« Reply #16 on: September 21, 2021, 10:01:14 PM »
That’s an informative addition RK.
Someone may get more out of that than my example/s. Over the journey I’ve found that at times, I can struggle furiously over some concept and then along comes someone and blurts it out in a different way and suddenly...
Bingo...!
It’s a beaut subject and the only reason I laboured with it was that there were a lot of people struggling like I was.

Nice to hear from you by the way.... :bow: :thumb:

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Re: This might come as a shock.
« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2021, 12:11:44 AM »
I heard the same thing Saturday when a local rider was checking the suspension & preload on my Ducati.  Nor sure I still understand it.  The bike "feels" stiffer with more preload.  But it does sit up higher with more preload, no question.

BTW- he was impressed that the suspension had so little stiction but the rear shock is too stiff (high speed) compression.  we didn't change anything, it was close enough other than the "Stiff" rear shock.
As soon as your butt hits the seat as you climb aboard, you get a signal as to the perceived “firmness” of the suspension.

As an exercise.
Wind all the preload off your shock and jump on the bike, feet up with someone holding you level.
Have an assistant measure the length of the SPRING.
Now climb off and wind on a realistic amount of preload (say, 10mm).
Hop back on the bike with your feet up and with your scantily clad assistant holding you level, have your other assistant measure the SPRING length again.
It will be the same...(it will therefore perform the same).
Now put the tape measure away and stop looking at your scantily clad assistant..(don’t be tempted to try measuring anything else...) :wink:

I hope the preceeding may serve useful to anyone who made no sense of my earlier offering.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2021, 12:13:03 AM by Huzo »

Offline tris

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Re: This might come as a shock.
« Reply #18 on: September 22, 2021, 01:28:19 AM »
I suspect that part of my confusion was the use of the word "Preload".

Am I right to say that the objective is NOT to pre load the spring it is to just shift the mounting point of the spring

If the shock wasn't there limiting movement then ride height would simply increase

However we have a shock limiting the movement so the spring is compressed, and mechanically compressing the spring by 1 inch is the same as applying a mass that compresses the spring by one inch

Physically ride height can never exceed the max travel of the shock however the spring doesn't know that so doesn't react until the travel created by the travel created by the mass exceeds the compression applied by the "pre load" adjuster (I'm assume simple static loads at this point)

Am I still on the right track?

Cheers

Tris


PS
My second-hand Roamer came with Hagon Nitros fitted and 17GKg springs IIRC
I wrote to Hagon last night to see if I have the right springs for my mass :grin:




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Re: This might come as a shock.
« Reply #19 on: September 22, 2021, 04:26:35 AM »
I suspect that part of my confusion was the use of the word "Preload".

Am I right to say that the objective is NOT to pre load the spring it is to just shift the mounting point of the spring

If the shock wasn't there limiting movement then ride height would simply increase

However we have a shock limiting the movement so the spring is compressed, and mechanically compressing the spring by 1 inch is the same as applying a mass that compresses the spring by one inch

Physically ride height can never exceed the max travel of the shock however the spring doesn't know that so doesn't react until the travel created by the travel created by the mass exceeds the compression applied by the "pre load" adjuster (I'm assume simple static loads at this point)

Am I still on the right track?

Cheers

Tris


PS
My second-hand Roamer came with Hagon Nitros fitted and 17GKg springs IIRC
I wrote to Hagon last night to see if I have the right springs for my mass :grin:
Mate I think so, preloading the shock is purely and simply to stop the spring having to squash so much before it will equalise to the load.
If your shock compressed 50 mm with your load in an unpreloaded condition, you could theoretically get off, wind on 49 mm of pre load and the spring would only have to squash another 1 mm to carry you when you jumped on.
But the first time you exited a depression, it would obviously top out.
Think of YOUR spring on YOUR bike with YOUR weight as an example and that spring will always compress to the same length (X), loaded at 1g.
Winding on preload will just move the bottom perch that the spring sits on, higher up the damper body and as long as the rod does not top out, the top of the spring is free to retreat away from the bottom perch as it winds up always maintaining that (X) length.
Here’s one..
If you stand a coil spring on a sheet of wood on the floor and you place a load on the spring, it will obviously compress.
Then if you grab the piece of wood and lift it upwards, the top of the coil will move upwards at the same rate as the bottom because there is no impediment to it’s motion.
Same with a coil over spring like we have.
Winding on pre load if you were sitting on the bike with the shock loaded, would just result in the top of the coil retreating upwards, again as long as the damper doesn’t top out.

Offline tris

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Re: This might come as a shock.
« Reply #20 on: September 22, 2021, 07:11:35 AM »
Thanks H!

It's all making sense now from a spring perspective. Just need to have a think some more about damping  :grin:

In other news.

Hagon have come back to tell me I need 18Kg (/mm?) springs as opposed the 17Kg on the bike now

Just need to find out how to get them changed out
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Re: This might come as a shock.
« Reply #21 on: September 22, 2021, 07:19:26 AM »
When are we going to get to the "shocking" part?
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Re: This might come as a shock.
« Reply #22 on: September 22, 2021, 07:36:11 AM »
When are we going to get to the "shocking" part?
Well...?
The thread hasn’t been nuked and a fight hasn’t broken out yet. That’s a bit of a shock isn’t it ?

Offline wymple

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Re: This might come as a shock.
« Reply #23 on: September 22, 2021, 08:37:05 AM »
Nobody has yet brought up the touchy subject of the flux capacitor's part in all this. I do know this much. I am short, at 5'8 on a good day. Cranking up the preload for me to carry a passenger has always made it harder for me to swing a leg over the bike & reach the ground. Regardless of the science involved.
No trees were harmed by the conveyance of this message, but a lot of electrons were seriously disturbed.

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Re: This might come as a shock.
« Reply #24 on: September 22, 2021, 09:00:21 AM »
Well...?
The thread hasn’t been nuked and a fight hasn’t broken out yet. That’s a bit of a shock isn’t it ?
I have learned a lot from this thread and there is nothing wrong with a respectable debate, regardless of the differences in one’s opinion. Just wish I was smart enough to offer any reliable information 🤔

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Re: This might come as a shock.
« Reply #25 on: September 22, 2021, 09:02:04 AM »
I read somewhere that Henry Ford grabbed the first model T off the line and took it for a spin across a lumpy field.  His debrief note read "Needs shock absorbers."  Some say he specified hydraulic, some say he was not specific.  It doesn't matter.  The point is that springs and shocks are two different components of a suspension system, and they have been forever.  With that said, I'd like to offer how I understand them.  Maybe it will help.  Keep in mind that I'm speaking in generalities.,,,,,,,,,,

Hey RK,     Tks very much for adding to this topic, as always, extremely well written  :bow:

ps glad to see you're doing well and back in the fold

                  :bike-037:
2008 California Vintage
2003 V11 Lemans
2007 Griso 1100
1979 G5 & 1980 Lemans CX100
2010 Suzuki DR650 & 1978 SR500

In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. George Orwell

Offline tris

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Re: This might come as a shock.
« Reply #26 on: September 22, 2021, 09:30:09 AM »
When are we going to get to the "shocking" part?

I'll have a stab for sh*ts and giggles

Compression damping
Controls the rate at which the spring compresses when an upward force is applied to the wheel - say a bump in the road

Rebound damping
Controls the rate at which the spring expands when the wheel comes across (say) - a hole in the road


I'm happy to delete this reply in it's entirety if I have that wrong!  :grin: :grin:
2017 V9 Roamer
2005 Breva 1100 (non ABS) "Bruno" - now sold
1995 Cali 1100 - carby   "Dino" -now sold
1993 TW125 "POS" - Resting

Online Huzo

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Re: This might come as a shock.
« Reply #27 on: September 22, 2021, 03:01:37 PM »
I'll have a stab for sh*ts and giggles

Compression damping
Controls the rate at which the spring compresses when an upward force is applied to the wheel - say a bump in the road

Rebound damping
Controls the rate at which the spring expands when the wheel comes across (say) - a hole in the road


I'm happy to delete this reply in it's entirety if I have that wrong!  :grin: :grin:
The damper will have a position where it is sitting during travel along a smooth surface, shall we say mid stroke.
When you hit a bump for example (it could have been a depression), the damper will be forced to compress somewhat until the bump is cleared, then the spring will force the wheel back down to the road surface. Note that the spring will slam the wheel back down faster than it would have fallen under it’s own weight.
But without damping, the suspension will theoretically try to oscillate to and fro, past that idealised mid point that we have in our example, due to the inertia in the mass of the suspension components.

If we leave the bike for a moment so as to not be distracted by all the stuff going on in the reality of riding.

Again if we have our 200 mm spring out on the bench disassembled from the damper.
If you were to compress that spring say 50 mm then release it suddenly, high speed photography would show you that it recoils out PAST the 200 mm point to say 210 mm then back to 180 then out to 205 ....etc
That is an idealised set of numbers and possibly they would be a lot less, but the point is, the spring would oscillate around that mid point until enough WORK had been done for it to come to rest.
It won’t take long because the spring has low mass and therefore low kinetic energy.
In the reality of our heavy suspension components, they will try to oscillate for a longer time up and down each side of our mid point until the energy is dissipated, this is why we have our damping.
It forces the spring to act against a hydraulic resistance after the bump has been cleared and you are back on smooth road, so that oscillation is quickly reduced to zero.
Imagine you had a bike cranked up clear of the floor with the damper removed from the rear shock(s).
Compress the suspension to it’s physical limit by some apparatus, the release it suddenly.
You’d see the spring fire the swingarm back out to the normal position but the energy stored would take it past until the spring was actually STRETCHING, then that oscillation around the mid point would commence.
The work required in moving fluid through the ports of a damping unit is what dissipates that kinetic energy.

To directly address your suggestion.
If you run over a six inch high speed hump for example..
The primary task of the damper is not to control the RATE that the suspension compresses, because unless the suspension can compress to ALL of that six inches in the instant that you hit the bump the shortfall will be transferred into the frame and YOU will go up by the residual amount.
Again the PRIMARY function of the damper is to dissipate the residual energy in the system by compelling the spring to do WORK in the pumping of the fluid through the restrictions in the shock body.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2021, 03:14:06 PM by Huzo »

Offline LowRyter

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Re: This might come as a shock.
« Reply #28 on: September 22, 2021, 03:24:09 PM »
As soon as your butt hits the seat as you climb aboard, you get a signal as to the perceived “firmness” of the suspension.

As an exercise.
Wind all the preload off your shock and jump on the bike, feet up with someone holding you level.
Have an assistant measure the length of the SPRING.
Now climb off and wind on a realistic amount of preload (say, 10mm).
Hop back on the bike with your feet up and with your scantily clad assistant holding you level, have your other assistant measure the SPRING length again.
It will be the same...(it will therefore perform the same).
Now put the tape measure away and stop looking at your scantily clad assistant..(don’t be tempted to try measuring anything else...) :wink:

I hope the preceeding may serve useful to anyone who made no sense of my earlier offering.

That was discussion.  Although I didn't want to see Rich scantily clad.  BTW- I took his word on it that you're both right.
John L 
When life gets you down remember it's one down and the rest are up.  (1-N-23456)

Online Huzo

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Re: This might come as a shock.
« Reply #29 on: September 22, 2021, 05:19:21 PM »
That was discussion.  Although I didn't want to see Rich scantily clad.  BTW- I took his word on it that you're both right.
Can you re word that LR ?
I don’t know Rich is.

 

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