Author Topic: V7C plastic tanks madness  (Read 725 times)

Offline Typo116

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V7C plastic tanks madness
« on: September 21, 2021, 01:38:14 PM »
Yet another post on the woes from the plastic tank expanding over time on the 1st gen V7...  so here's a fix for the rear mounting bolt not lining up to the threaded hole in the bracket (after removing the tank for the first time, re-installing, and the surprise discovery that it expanded a solid half inch)

Wasn't really stoked about the rubber mounts grinding solution (thus running into interference issues with the stem/forks) or filing down the tank hole, so I decided to "move" the rear mounting threaded hole.  Easier said than done of course since in production, they decided to weld a nut under the bracket, call it good, and leaving it up to the owner to figure out the best way to modify that "simple" setup.

Here are some photos of the madness I had to go through... oh and having access to a mill was key. I know, I know...


Before pic












































   

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Re: V7C plastic tanks madness
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2021, 05:46:30 PM »
Nice work!!!

Is that adjustable to allow for future expansion?
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Offline twowheeladdict

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Re: V7C plastic tanks madness
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2021, 05:50:37 PM »
There was a recall on my 2010 Café Classic and I only ran non ethanol and it never expanded when I sold it in 2018.
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Offline Typo116

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Re: V7C plastic tanks madness
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2021, 06:14:46 PM »
Nice work!!!

Is that adjustable to allow for future expansion?

Yes, the sliding nut came off an Alfa Romeo  :grin:

The bike is a 2010 so I would hope that after 11 years of running E10 gas that most, if not all the expansion is done by now.  Still, wouldn't want to find out the hard way!

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Re: V7C plastic tanks madness
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2021, 06:14:46 PM »

Offline Typo116

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Re: V7C plastic tanks madness
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2021, 06:18:42 PM »
There was a recall on my 2010 Café Classic and I only ran non ethanol and it never expanded when I sold it in 2018.

Interesting.  Mine's also a 2010.  What were the details on the recall? 
With only 5 or 6 pumps of non-E in the entire Portland area, it would have been very impractical for me to keep the bike on that diet for that long. Especially not the way I've been using it for the last 4 years (commuting / travel, etc)

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Re: V7C plastic tanks madness
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2021, 06:39:32 PM »
Yes, the sliding nut came off an Alfa Romeo  :grin:

The bike is a 2010 so I would hope that after 11 years of running E10 gas that most, if not all the expansion is done by now.  Still, wouldn't want to find out the hard way!

Brilliant!  I love it.

Those of us who use hacksaws and handfiles are not worthy to walk on the same ground!!!   :wink:

I've heard that letting the tank sit empty for a few weeks (with a hair dryer blowing into it?) will result in the tank shrinking back some.  I doubt it will ever regain original dimensions.

I try to run only ethanol free gas for all the obvious reasons.
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Offline twowheeladdict

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Re: V7C plastic tanks madness
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2021, 07:13:37 PM »
Interesting.  Mine's also a 2010.  What were the details on the recall? 
With only 5 or 6 pumps of non-E in the entire Portland area, it would have been very impractical for me to keep the bike on that diet for that long. Especially not the way I've been using it for the last 4 years (commuting / travel, etc)

Pure gas station 1/2 mile from the house.  Out in the country we like to run pure gas in all our equipment so the local station meets the demand for pure gas in all 3 grades. 

Here is information on the recall I found on another forum.

Quote
Piaggio has issued a recall on certain 2009-2011 V7 Classic and Café models to replace the canister valve to lower the vapor pressure
inside the fuel tank and allow for proper venting. The attempt I believe is to keep the tanks from swelling. This applies ONLY to V7 Classic and Cafe models.

Hopefully this is a fix and will apply to all other machines with similar problems. If you don't want to wait to see if the recalls will apply to other machines at a later date and just try the part, you an order from any Guzzi Dealer. Order #860138 for a cost of $24.40.

If you have one of the affected machines cantact your local dealer for the repairs.

If you have a dealer to call, you can check with your VIN to see if it has been done. 
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Offline Typo116

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Re: V7C plastic tanks madness
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2021, 02:01:39 AM »
Pure gas station 1/2 mile from the house.  Out in the country we like to run pure gas in all our equipment so the local station meets the demand for pure gas in all 3 grades. 

Here is information on the recall I found on another forum.

If you have a dealer to call, you can check with your VIN to see if it has been done.

I do remember this recall!  Yes, I had mine done and it was still under warranty when that came out.  Still, when I took the tank off last year for the first time in maybe 7-8 years I found there was not way I could put that rear mounting bolt back in.  I actually had to ratchet strap the back of the tank to the triple tree and pull it in - that, and I had to leave the spacing sleeve behind and just tighten the bolt over the rubber grommet. 

I think the recall helped in not causing the tank to bulge or abnormally deform, but running E10 gas was the culprit behind the elongation. No question. 

I also remember wishing I waited around a bit when the next gen V7 came out - with the improved mill and a metal tank. 

Offline Muzz

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Re: V7C plastic tanks madness
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2021, 03:53:39 AM »
Inventive and a very clever solution.  Nice work. :thumb:
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Offline tris

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Re: V7C plastic tanks madness
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2021, 03:54:43 AM »
That's an elegant solution to a problem that shouldn't be there sadly  :bow:

When I decided to change my B11, a B750 was on the books until I found it had a plastic tank like its big brother so ended up with the V9 Roamer
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Re: V7C plastic tanks madness
« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2021, 04:32:17 AM »
Great solution for the expanded tank. I agree running E free fuel is very impractical especially if you commute or travel. When I need fuel I need fuel. I'm not planning my day or trip around E free fuel pumps.

In our area there is one station about 5 mile away with E free 89 or 91 octane and its prohibitively expensive and the turnover is about 1/100th of the lower cost E-10. Given the choice of paying a prohibitively high amount for old stale E free fuel at the one station in the area that carriers it or paying a much lower cost for much fresher E-10 avalaible at every gas station on earth. The choice is easy for me.


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Re: V7C plastic tanks madness
« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2021, 04:45:45 AM »
Wasn't there a program going on back when to replace the plastic tank with a metal tank on some bikes?

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Re: V7C plastic tanks madness
« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2021, 07:18:09 AM »
Great solution for the expanded tank. I agree running E free fuel is very impractical especially if you commute or travel. When I need fuel I need fuel. I'm not planning my day or trip around E free fuel pumps.

In our area there is one station about 5 mile away with E free 89 or 91 octane and its prohibitively expensive and the turnover is about 1/100th of the lower cost E-10. Given the choice of paying a prohibitively high amount for old stale E free fuel at the one station in the area that carriers it or paying a much lower cost for much fresher E-10 avalaible at every gas station on earth. The choice is easy for me.

That is pretty sound logic.  In my daily drivers, e-fuel is usually used.  Less than 10%.  Hopefully we will never go full CA nuts.  I've heard you can buy up to 80% ethanol in CA.

In anything that is fueled from a gas can, I use non-ethanol 92 octane and add some Sta-Bil.  This fuel stays good for at least a year, or at least I have not had any problems running it up to a year or 18 months later.

I've heard the same reasoning for avoiding high octane ethanol fuel.  It does not sell as fast, so it has more time to absorb water out of the environment.

How do you know the turnover time of the local non ethanol gas?  Did you ask the owner of the gas station?  I would think the lawn care guys alone would ensure similar turnover.

We are fortunate here, there are several stations/convenient stores that sell non-ethanol.  Prices range for 0.50 cents to a buck a gallon higher.  Oddly enough, the 92 octane non-ethanol is cheaper than the lower octane non-ethanol.

One would think the plastic tank swelling would have been solved long ago.  I guess the manufacturers see it as acceptable aspect and not a flaw.
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Offline twowheeladdict

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Re: V7C plastic tanks madness
« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2021, 07:26:46 AM »
With metal fuel tanks I keep the tank full of fuel after every ride. 

With plastic tanks, it sounds like draining them after each ride would be the optimum way to keep swelling from happening. 

Typo116 do you have any issue with the paint cracking along the lower part of the tank due to the swelling?

To Perazzimx14, If I am on a trip and know I am going to burn the full tank I will put E10 in the tank.  I try and plan to be close to empty when I get home, and top off with pure gas before putting the bike away.  I do this with all of my bikes. 
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Re: V7C plastic tanks madness
« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2021, 07:44:58 AM »
With metal fuel tanks I keep the tank full of fuel after every ride. 

With plastic tanks, it sounds like draining them after each ride would be the optimum way to keep swelling from happening. 

Typo116 do you have any issue with the paint cracking along the lower part of the tank due to the swelling?

To Perazzimx14, If I am on a trip and know I am going to burn the full tank I will put E10 in the tank.  I try and plan to be close to empty when I get home, and top off with pure gas before putting the bike away.  I do this with all of my bikes.

Draining the tank would be a bit of work.  Especially for FI bikes.

I do the same.  On a fairly long ride where most of the gas will be used, ethanol or not is unimportant.  The swelling of the tank is a chronic problem.  It won't happen quickly, and brief periods of ethanol fuel should have minimum effect.

There are some specific ethanol fuel additives whose names escape me at the moment, that might help with the swelling problem, but I suspect the testing to ensure positive results would take many months.  I would be very wary of anyone who claimed they could prove additives will prevent tank swelling.

https://www.ridetheducksofseattle.com/best-ethanol-fuel-treatments/

One of the local Stihl sales/repair shop owner swears the problem is not ethanol, but some of the other gasoline additives that are unique to some regions of the US.

I've notice that sometimes my stomach swells also, seems to greatly depend upon what I put in it.
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Offline Typo116

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Re: V7C plastic tanks madness
« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2021, 11:13:49 AM »
Wasn't there a program going on back when to replace the plastic tank with a metal tank on some bikes?

John Henry

I thought there were a handful of owners that were able to to that, but it was an expensive part swap. MG focused on pushing the next model on the market back in 2012 rather than catering to service items with the 1st V7 (that IMO was not a huge seller).  Also the V7II that came out right after the 1st gen V7 have a single Throttle Body - so a different air box under the tank.  Because of this, the metal tanks of the V7II did not fit the previous version.

Offline slowmover

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Re: V7C plastic tanks madness
« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2021, 11:23:32 AM »
I had a new 2010 that developed a raised bubble on the side a year after I bought it.The tank was replaced under warranty.

Offline Typo116

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Re: V7C plastic tanks madness
« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2021, 11:30:20 AM »
With metal fuel tanks I keep the tank full of fuel after every ride. 

With plastic tanks, it sounds like draining them after each ride would be the optimum way to keep swelling from happening. 

Typo116 do you have any issue with the paint cracking along the lower part of the tank due to the swelling?


In the 11 years I've owned the bike I had no issues with localized tank swelling or related paint cracking (I suspect the Canister Valve recall was more about this aspect of the tank deforming).  Other than the stretching with the rear mount hole moving back about a 1/2 inch, the tank is still in excellent condition - paint and shape.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2021, 11:31:55 AM by Typo116 »

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Re: V7C plastic tanks madness
« Reply #18 on: September 22, 2021, 02:06:38 PM »
Draining the tank would be a bit of work.  Especially for FI bikes.

I do the same.  On a fairly long ride where most of the gas will be used, ethanol or not is unimportant.  The swelling of the tank is a chronic problem.  It won't happen quickly, and brief periods of ethanol fuel should have minimum effect.

There are some specific ethanol fuel additives whose names escape me at the moment, that might help with the swelling problem, but I suspect the testing to ensure positive results would take many months.  I would be very wary of anyone who claimed they could prove additives will prevent tank swelling.

https://www.ridetheducksofseattle.com/best-ethanol-fuel-treatments/

One of the local Stihl sales/repair shop owner swears the problem is not ethanol, but some of the other gasoline additives that are unique to some regions of the US.

I've notice that sometimes my stomach swells also, seems to greatly depend upon what I put in it.

For clearing fuel cells of their contents a $3 kerosene pump works a treat.











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Re: V7C plastic tanks madness
« Reply #19 on: September 22, 2021, 02:54:59 PM »
For clearing fuel cells of their contents a $3 kerosene pump works a treat.





Is that shaft flexible?  I'm a little concerned about sticking that down my throat......

Not sure if I can get past the gag reflex.....
« Last Edit: September 22, 2021, 02:55:42 PM by SIR REAL ED »
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Re: V7C plastic tanks madness
« Reply #20 on: September 22, 2021, 03:01:05 PM »
Is that shaft flexible?  I'm a little concerned about sticking that down my throat......

Not sure if I can get past the gag reflex.....

I can only lead the horse to water. I can't make him suck.
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Re: V7C plastic tanks madness
« Reply #21 on: September 22, 2021, 05:17:15 PM »
I can only lead the horse to water. I can't make him suck.

Looks good for those times when you've had a couple beers too many, and you know you won't get a good night's sleep because of that bloated feeling....... or a queasy feeling.......
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Offline Stevex

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Re: V7C plastic tanks madness
« Reply #22 on: September 23, 2021, 06:25:48 AM »
I have the same problem on my Aprilia with the nylon tank.
You know it's the water that the ethanol absorbs that causes the tank to swell don't you?
When not in use leave the tank as empty as you can.
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Re: V7C plastic tanks madness
« Reply #23 on: September 23, 2021, 06:39:04 AM »
I have the same problem on my Aprilia with the nylon tank.
You know it's the water that the ethanol absorbs that causes the tank to swell don't you?
When not in use leave the tank as empty as you can.

That is pretty much what I have read.  Hard to believe though.  What chemical is more benign than water?

I avoid ethanol gas for the water absorption reason.  So far, my plastic gas tanks have not expanded even after 8 years or more.

I'd rather dump in non-ethanol fuel to dilute whatever is in there, than try to siphon out all the ethanol fuel.

Probably not a bad idea to keep an empty gas can around for transferring e-gas from your bikes to your cars.  And keep a full gas can of non-ethanol around to fill your bikes gas tanks.
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Offline Typo116

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Re: V7C plastic tanks madness
« Reply #24 on: September 23, 2021, 12:37:21 PM »
 The whole orchestration with the fuel type, special additives, tank draining sounds exhausting and impractical.  I use my bikes like most people use their cars.  Everyday transportation. (and I own a truck for when I need one)

The concept of treating a 2010 Guzzi like a 1939 Packard makes no sense to me.   But then again, re-engineering a mounting bracket instead of selling my V7 for a new Honda probably won't make sense to a lot of people either...  :grin:

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Re: V7C plastic tanks madness
« Reply #25 on: September 23, 2021, 05:19:29 PM »
The whole orchestration with the fuel type, special additives, tank draining sounds exhausting and impractical.  I use my bikes like most people use their cars.  Everyday transportation. (and I own a truck for when I need one)

The concept of treating a 2010 Guzzi like a 1939 Packard makes no sense to me.   But then again, re-engineering a mounting bracket instead of selling my V7 for a new Honda probably won't make sense to a lot of people either...  :grin:

Makes perfect sense to me.  You have the tools and the skills.  Tinkering is therapeutic!
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Offline sign216

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Re: V7C plastic tanks madness
« Reply #26 on: September 25, 2021, 05:00:40 AM »
Another fellow solved the tank bolt not matching up by using a heavy zip tie instead. 

Seems like a quick solution, although there may be abrasive wear down the road.
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Offline krglorioso

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Re: V7C plastic tanks madness
« Reply #27 on: September 25, 2021, 09:28:48 PM »
Easy access to ethanol-free gas is as close as your garage.  A little time consuming, but very do-able at minimal expense.  There are "how-to" videos on the Internet.

I have a clear glass one-gallon jug with a handle and threaded cap for security.  Put in 3 quarts of 91 octane ethanol gas.  Add one quart of water.  Seal jug and shake vigorously for a minute.  Good exercise. Let sit for 15 minutes.  The water settles to the bottom and absorbs the alcohol.  The colors of water and gas are different.  Use a hand pump or siphon to draw off the water/alcohol from the bottom of the jug.  The remaining liquid is ethanol free gas.  I also have a small $12 tester which detects the presence of any alcohol and will indicate the percentage of alcohol, if I missed any. 

So far, I manage to find a reason to be on some errand near Liberty Hill, TX, which is 37 miles east of home.  While in the area I stop at Quick Trip gas and get 90 octane non-ethanol gas for about $3.15 a gallon in the 4-5 five gallon gas cans I bring along.  The Breva 750 is a tad heavy for me (age almost 85 and 134#) and I tend to use my two other bikes, which are lighter, more than the Breva so 20-25 gallons of ethanol-free gas lasts me several months. 

At some point, we safely may assume that the sale of non-ethanol fuel will be banned nationally and making our own will then be a very valuable alternative.

Ralph
« Last Edit: September 25, 2021, 09:31:03 PM by krglorioso »
Ralph

Offline OregonAl

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Re: V7C plastic tanks madness
« Reply #28 on: October 06, 2021, 10:20:41 AM »
Nice elegant and permanent solution, well done. FWIW I only use clear(ethanol-free) gas for the most part, any marina will have it as most boaters use it too. If I am traveling out of the area, its no problem to use ethanol gas on the road, I just make sure and fill up the now empty tank with the good stuff before I put her back in the garage. Makes a world of difference to put Yamaha fuel stabilizer in the tank over the winter as well.
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