Author Topic: Timing gear lash and lubrication.  (Read 4488 times)

Online PJPR01

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 3936
  • Norge, Scura, Griso
  • Location: Houston, Texas
Re: Timing gear lash
« Reply #60 on: May 24, 2022, 12:45:46 PM »
Elegance. It could be argued, and indeed succinctly that installing gears is actually going back to the original setup.

Ciao
  That's a good reason all by itself.  Lovely piece of work.
Paul R
2021 Honda Goldwing Bagger Manual Cement Gray
2015 Red/Black Griso
2008 Silver Norge
2002 V11 Scura

Offline lucky phil

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2047
Re: Timing gear lash
« Reply #61 on: May 24, 2022, 05:26:15 PM »
Yes and yes Phil.

Ok so therefore your bike does not retain any oil at all in the fwd cam drive area, it relies solely on oil mist to lubricate the gears. Probably why your bike has slightly more gear noise than the earlier bikes.

Ciao
If you're not living on the edge you're taking up to much room.

Online Huzo

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 13202
  • Location: Creswick Australia
Re: Timing gear lash
« Reply #62 on: May 24, 2022, 05:28:27 PM »
Ok so therefore your bike does not retain any oil at all in the fwd cam drive area, it relies solely on oil mist to lubricate the gears. Probably why your bike has slightly more gear noise than the earlier bikes.

Ciao
Hmmmm

Online John A

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 4907
  • No way to slow down...
  • Location: Hager city ,western WI
Re: Timing gear lash
« Reply #63 on: May 24, 2022, 08:23:28 PM »
I’ve thought about drilling an oil pressure hole into the vertical oil pressure galley to squirt at the junction where the gears mesh but never have done it. I’d tend to go small so as to not affect the pressure upstream. Maybe.0025 to start with. Just speculation. It would be fun to make a clear front cover or a window
John
MGNOC L-471
It is easier to fool people than it is to convince them that they have been fooled-Mark Twain
99 Bassa, sidecar
02 Stone
84 V65C
15 F3S Spyder

Wildguzzi.com

Re: Timing gear lash
« Reply #63 on: May 24, 2022, 08:23:28 PM »

Offline n3303j

  • Ron Cichowski
  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 1600
  • Location: Eastern Massachusetts
Re: Timing gear lash
« Reply #64 on: May 24, 2022, 08:45:22 PM »
I’ve thought about drilling an oil pressure hole into the vertical oil pressure galley to squirt at the junction where the gears mesh but never have done it. I’d tend to go small so as to not affect the pressure upstream. Maybe.0025 to start with. Just speculation. It would be fun to make a clear front cover or a window
I'd like to see your 0.0025 inch drill!
'98 MG V11 EV
'96 URAL SPORTSMAN
'77 MG 850T3 FB

Offline lucky phil

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2047
Re: Timing gear lash
« Reply #65 on: May 24, 2022, 08:50:47 PM »
I’ve thought about drilling an oil pressure hole into the vertical oil pressure galley to squirt at the junction where the gears mesh but never have done it. I’d tend to go small so as to not affect the pressure upstream. Maybe.0025 to start with. Just speculation. It would be fun to make a clear front cover or a window

Just not necessary I don't think John. The std chain and tensioner are obviously lubricated quite effectively by the oil mist and the loading on the gear teeth on a geared system wont be that high. At the end of the day it's only driving the camshaft not the back wheel and Joes gears are pretty beefy. After seeing the way the Norge engine front timing case is configured I think the blocking off and raising the oil drain holes on the earlier engines to elevate the height of the trapped oil some people do is a pointless exercise and only serves to waste energy by additional drag and churn oil which elevates it's temperature and can lead to frothing.
A two and a half thou oil delivery hole isn't a practical size in an engine oil delivery system I dont think. I've seen oil pump bodies shed larger particles than that from contact with the tips of the gear teeth. It would be interesting to get a look at whats happening in there during running. On youtube there are various videos of car engine rocker covers and sumps that have been made see through. Interesting what goes on in there.

Ciao 
If you're not living on the edge you're taking up to much room.

Offline lucky phil

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2047
Re: Timing gear lash
« Reply #66 on: May 24, 2022, 08:53:39 PM »
I'd like to see your 0.0025 inch drill!
Bloody hard to sharpen  :laugh:

Ciao
If you're not living on the edge you're taking up to much room.

Online John A

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 4907
  • No way to slow down...
  • Location: Hager city ,western WI
Re: Timing gear lash
« Reply #67 on: May 24, 2022, 09:26:45 PM »
Too many zeros…. :grin:
I think I used a .030” on a failed small block rear main thrust flange with good results.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2022, 09:40:32 PM by John A »
John
MGNOC L-471
It is easier to fool people than it is to convince them that they have been fooled-Mark Twain
99 Bassa, sidecar
02 Stone
84 V65C
15 F3S Spyder

Online Huzo

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 13202
  • Location: Creswick Australia
Re: Timing gear lash
« Reply #68 on: May 25, 2022, 01:26:20 AM »
I did have them in for a VERY short period.
The last time I ran it, I decided they were coming out. From that decision to lifting off the timing chest cover, was about 20 minutes.
The gears had a goodly coating of oil all over them and that was a hot engine with 20 minutes drain time.
The inspection hole is an idea I will ponder.
It would not be too hard to have a threaded plug suitably lock wired and start the engine with the alternator belt cover removed and peer in while it’s running.
Would make a nice little video.
Hmmmm…. :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
« Last Edit: May 25, 2022, 01:27:38 AM by Huzo »

Offline jacksonracingcomau

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2359
Re: Timing gear lash
« Reply #69 on: May 25, 2022, 01:50:04 AM »
It would be fun to make a clear front cover or a window
Actually much easier than that, if you have early mechanical  tacho model or can borrow timing chest cover from one, simply run without tacho drive installed
Good thrash for 30 mins, all the fun you could imagine.

But this is maddest thread drift ever, first post problem was not oil related, oil won’t create lash

Offline lucky phil

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2047
Re: Timing gear lash
« Reply #70 on: May 25, 2022, 02:17:51 AM »
Actually much easier than that, if you have early mechanical  tacho model or can borrow timing chest cover from one, simply run without tacho drive installed
Good thrash for 30 mins, all the fun you could imagine.

But this is maddest thread drift ever, first post problem was not oil related, oil won’t create lash

No drift at all just following the logical path. The first post was related to tooth backlash because of perceived gear noise and gear noise can be somewhat related to the conditions the gears operate in including the oil and how they are lubricated. I would expect a gear drive system lubricated by oil mist to be somewhat noisier than the same system lubricated by an oil bath. Threads like this lead to interesting learnings for some of us. So now I know the later BB engines breath through the cam gear and camshaft and don't rely to some extent on the timing chain and oil pump sprocket picking up oil from a vestigial sump in the timing chest. 

« Last Edit: May 25, 2022, 02:19:46 AM by lucky phil »
If you're not living on the edge you're taking up to much room.

Online Huzo

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 13202
  • Location: Creswick Australia
Re: Timing gear lash
« Reply #71 on: May 25, 2022, 03:53:33 AM »
I don’t mind where it drifts to.
Talked to Pete about it today, he holds no fears whatsoever.

Offline jacksonracingcomau

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2359
Re: Timing gear lash
« Reply #72 on: May 25, 2022, 04:40:38 AM »
No drift at all just following the logical path. The first post was related to tooth backlash because of perceived gear noise and gear noise can be somewhat related to the conditions the gears operate in including the oil and how they are lubricated. I would expect a gear drive system lubricated by oil mist to be somewhat noisier than the same system lubricated by an oil bath. Threads like this lead to interesting learnings for some of us. So now I know the later BB engines breath through the cam gear and camshaft and don't rely to some extent on the timing chain and oil pump sprocket picking up oil from a vestigial sump in the timing chest.


Cool bananas
Perhaps a schematic drawing of OP’s breather system would be handy.  Oil return (condensate) to timing chest would seem to have the opposite effect

This May be relevant



Suffice to say, if I’d installed the gears and felt even a couple of thou’ lash, I would have buttoned it up and off into the sunset.
I have a background in machining and I know what a couple of thou feels like and I could not discern any.
But that may be for the reasons mentioned.



I did have them in for a VERY short period.
The last time I ran it, I decided they were coming out. From that decision to lifting off the timing chest cover, was about 20 minutes.
The gears had a goodly coating of oil all over them and that was a hot engine with 20 minutes drain time.


Goodly,, wonderful

Offline lucky phil

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2047
Re: Timing gear lash
« Reply #73 on: May 25, 2022, 07:29:50 AM »

Cool bananas
Perhaps a schematic drawing of OP’s breather system would be handy.  Oil return (condensate) to timing chest would seem to have the opposite effect

This May be relevant



Goodly,, wonderful

So here is an image of Joes gears for the Norge and later BB engines which as far as the breather system go's replicates the original Guzzi chain drive system. The engine vents through the cam gear ribs via 4mm holes from the outer dia of the gear to the inner and into the holes in the nose of the cam. From there it goes forward in the hollow camshaft nose into the area on the front of the cam cover and out the vent on the lhs of the cam cover. Not shown on the cover is the seal holder and seal that seals the nose of the camshaft to the front cover. The last image shows in the bottom of the crankcase timing chest floor the two large dia holes around 20mm each that drain the area directly to the sump unlike older BB engine crankcases which have drain holes in the vertical face above the floor of the timing chest and retain a quantity of oil that the lower portion of the oil pump gear runs in and picks up oil. Note also the addition of cam lobe oiling holes just before the opening ramps fed I'm surmising from the rear cam bearing feed in a drilling through the centre of the camshaft. Technical evolution, always interesting. 









« Last Edit: May 25, 2022, 08:35:59 PM by lucky phil »
If you're not living on the edge you're taking up to much room.

Online John A

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 4907
  • No way to slow down...
  • Location: Hager city ,western WI
Re: Timing gear lash
« Reply #74 on: May 25, 2022, 08:20:59 AM »
Just not necessary I don't think John. The std chain and tensioner are obviously lubricated quite effectively by the oil mist and the loading on the gear teeth on a geared system wont be that high. At the end of the day it's only driving the camshaft not the back wheel and Joes gears are pretty beefy. After seeing the way the Norge engine front timing case is configured I think the blocking off and raising the oil drain holes on the earlier engines to elevate the height of the trapped oil some people do is a pointless exercise and only serves to waste energy by additional drag and churn oil which elevates it's temperature and can lead to frothing.
A two and a half thou oil delivery hole isn't a practical size in an engine oil delivery system I dont think. I've seen oil pump bodies shed larger particles than that from contact with the tips of the gear teeth. It would be interesting to get a look at whats happening in there during running. On youtube there are various videos of car engine rocker covers and sumps that have been made see through. Interesting what goes on in there.

Ciao




That’s why I never did it. In this case there was a concern about the oiling on the gears with the new timing chest design so I mentioned it as a possible solution to a possible problem since it would be easy to do. It stands to reason hole size would need to be determined and I make no recommendations on that obviously. There are also the considerations of skill and tooling.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2022, 10:35:15 AM by John A »
John
MGNOC L-471
It is easier to fool people than it is to convince them that they have been fooled-Mark Twain
99 Bassa, sidecar
02 Stone
84 V65C
15 F3S Spyder

Offline lucky phil

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2047
Re: Timing gear lash
« Reply #75 on: May 25, 2022, 05:43:38 PM »



That’s why I never did it. In this case there was a concern about the oiling on the gears with the new timing chest design so I mentioned it as a possible solution to a possible problem since it would be easy to do. It stands to reason hole size would need to be determined and I make no recommendations on that obviously. There are also the considerations of skill and tooling.

Ok sure. I just dont see oiling of the gears an issue on the later designs. If they were under a lot of load like the much narrower gearbox gears I might but not here. Anyway they have been fitted to later engines and I'll see what the outcome is but I don't expect any problems.

Ciao
If you're not living on the edge you're taking up to much room.

Online Huzo

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 13202
  • Location: Creswick Australia
Re: Timing gear lash and lubrication.
« Reply #76 on: May 25, 2022, 08:19:30 PM »
The title of the thread has been modified to allow for drift… :popcorn:

Offline jacksonracingcomau

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2359
Re: Timing gear lash
« Reply #77 on: May 26, 2022, 03:40:30 AM »
The last image shows in the bottom of the crankcase timing chest floor the two large dia holes around 20mm each that drain the area directly to the sump unlike older BB engine crankcases which have drain holes in the vertical face above the floor of the timing chest and retain a quantity of oil that the lower portion of the oil pump gear runs in and picks up oil. . Technical evolution, always interesting. 
[/url]



Yes, a picture tells a fousand words
Not quite as clear but my 67 V700 (70mm stroke, no oil filter, helical gears) , tractor not rocketship
Vertical and horizontal holes visible ( blow up for horiz holes under oil pump gear)


« Last Edit: May 26, 2022, 03:49:16 AM by jacksonracingcomau »

Offline lucky phil

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2047
Re: Timing gear lash
« Reply #78 on: May 26, 2022, 07:42:30 AM »
Yes, a picture tells a fousand words
Not quite as clear but my 67 V700 (70mm stroke, no oil filter, helical gears) , tractor not rocketship
Vertical and horizontal holes visible ( blow up for horiz holes under oil pump gear)




So if I'm understanding correctly from your image the very early engines that came originally with a gear driven cam also had the timing chest drained via holes in the floor area and only when they went to chain driven cams they sealed the timing chest floor so the area retained oil? Is this the case?

Ciao 
If you're not living on the edge you're taking up to much room.

Offline jacksonracingcomau

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2359
Re: Timing gear lash
« Reply #79 on: May 27, 2022, 02:27:51 AM »
So if I'm understanding correctly from your image the very early engines that came originally with a gear driven cam also had the timing chest drained via holes in the floor area and only when they went to chain driven cams they sealed the timing chest floor so the area retained oil? Is this the case?

Ciao
Early “Tonti” roundfin case, mid 70’s S3: T3, le mans, convert, G5, SP
Oil filter inside sump, dual points, Bosch alternator, manual cam chain tensioner
The most common motor, sold in the thousands, good reasons why but the chain was a bit of a drag., oh and the flywheels were steam era relics, took till the 1100 Sport and Daytona to slim them down. Both easily fixed





I don’t have any between 1967 and these, post a pic of what you have or have seen with year/ model etc, engine number if you don’t know.
May be owner modified, people do some weird stuff

I like this talk in pictures game, cuts the fairy stories out, the dreams, the weird opinions, the my mate Billy’s got a ten foot willy and he says etc etc





Online Huzo

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 13202
  • Location: Creswick Australia
Re: Timing gear lash and lubrication.
« Reply #80 on: May 27, 2022, 02:41:15 PM »
I suppose when it’s all said and done, the gears are in exactly the same environment as the chain and the first one did 180,000 km with zero trouble.

Offline ray bear

  • Gosling
  • ***
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 298
  • Location: South Australia
Re: Timing gear lash and lubrication.
« Reply #81 on: May 27, 2022, 05:08:56 PM »
have been following this thread with interest as my timing gear 73 eldorado has the 4 oil holes in the bottom of the timing chest plugged with 10mm grub screws and it drains via the oil holes that are a 3rd of the way up behind the oil pump gear and another a little higher up, I have had the bike for about 12 years and and travelled 70,000 kms on it before I rebuilt it a while back due to annoying piston slap that it had since I purchased it and when I rebuilt it the bottom end and timing gears were sound so I left the plugs installed as I couldnt see any negative effects and being a diesel mechanic all my life I believe chains can run in a mist of oil but gears need a bath.  Ray
73 V7 sport
73 Eldo police special
68 BSA rocket 3
74 Norton Commando
78 Honda CBX 1000
47 HRD vincent Rapide
XT 500 Yamaha
76 Convert
84 FLHX limited edition electra glide

Online Huzo

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 13202
  • Location: Creswick Australia
Re: Timing gear lash and lubrication.
« Reply #82 on: May 27, 2022, 05:31:28 PM »
have been following this thread with interest as my timing gear 73 eldorado has the 4 oil holes in the bottom of the timing chest plugged with 10mm grub screws and it drains via the oil holes that are a 3rd of the way up behind the oil pump gear and another a little higher up, I have had the bike for about 12 years and and travelled 70,000 kms on it before I rebuilt it a while back due to annoying piston slap that it had since I purchased it and when I rebuilt it the bottom end and timing gears were sound so I left the plugs installed as I couldnt see any negative effects and being a diesel mechanic all my life I believe chains can run in a mist of oil but gears need a bath.  Ray
Duly noted RB….
I think the jury is out to an extent as to how much oil is being thrown around in there during operation.
If I was sure it was a mist, then the gears would stay on the shelf. Roper assures me that it is an absolute maelstrom of oil being thrown everywhere during operation and I do know that when I pulled them out 20 minutes after shutdown, they were soaked in oil…
So I’m open to all comment.

Offline lucky phil

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2047
Re: Timing gear lash and lubrication.
« Reply #83 on: May 27, 2022, 11:31:31 PM »
Duly noted RB….
I think the jury is out to an extent as to how much oil is being thrown around in there during operation.
If I was sure it was a mist, then the gears would stay on the shelf. Roper assures me that it is an absolute maelstrom of oil being thrown everywhere during operation and I do know that when I pulled them out 20 minutes after shutdown, they were soaked in oil…
So I’m open to all comment.

Here is an image of the Guareschi gear set they sell installed in an engine. It looks to me to probably be a late model Norge with the Troichoidal oil pump and it's also been modified to use MGS-01 piston oil squirters by the looks of things with the braided lines running behind the cam gears to the oil squirters MGS-01 style. So once again gear driven cam with as can be seen large oil drain holes in the timing chest. The final 2 images are of an 8 Valve Griso 1200 engine that uses gear cam drive as standard and also large drain holes in the timing chest. I think we can say without reservation that the cam drive gears can happily operate without a wet sump and oil mist lubrication only.

https://www.guareschimoto.it/prodotto/terna-ingranaggi/









« Last Edit: May 27, 2022, 11:33:10 PM by lucky phil »
If you're not living on the edge you're taking up to much room.

Offline jacksonracingcomau

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2359
Re: Timing gear lash and lubrication.
« Reply #84 on: June 03, 2022, 04:07:04 AM »
Duly noted RB….
I think the jury is out to an extent as to how much oil is being thrown around in there during operation.
If I was sure it was a mist, then the gears would stay on the shelf. Roper assures me that it is an absolute maelstrom of oil being thrown everywhere during operation and I do know that when I pulled them out 20 minutes after shutdown, they were soaked in oil…
So I’m open to all comment.

Fitters call, of course, never blame the manufacturer or internet opinions

But there are many ways to measure gear lash



Online John A

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 4907
  • No way to slow down...
  • Location: Hager city ,western WI
Re: Timing gear lash and lubrication.
« Reply #85 on: June 03, 2022, 09:08:27 AM »
I think it’s been mentioned in this thread that the distance between centers change as the temperature changes. Does anyone have a rough idea how much it moves from say, ambient 70f temp to operating temp after an hour of running? I know from having an oil temperature gauge on several big blocks that it takes an average of 30 miles for the oil temp, taken from a sender in the drain plug, to stabilize. From there it fluctuates depending on the variables. What average  temp is the alloy in the block do you suppose? Caruso has likely calculated and possibly measured the difference change between the gears .just curious this morning..
« Last Edit: June 03, 2022, 10:15:20 AM by John A »
John
MGNOC L-471
It is easier to fool people than it is to convince them that they have been fooled-Mark Twain
99 Bassa, sidecar
02 Stone
84 V65C
15 F3S Spyder

Offline lucky phil

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2047
Re: Timing gear lash and lubrication.
« Reply #86 on: June 03, 2022, 05:04:26 PM »
I think it’s been mentioned in this thread that the distance between centers change as the temperature changes. Does anyone have a rough idea how much it moves from say, ambient 70f temp to operating temp after an hour of running? I know from having an oil temperature gauge on several big blocks that it takes an average of 30 miles for the oil temp, taken from a sender in the drain plug, to stabilize. From there it fluctuates depending on the variables. What average  temp is the alloy in the block do you suppose? Caruso has likely calculated and possibly measured the difference change between the gears .just curious this morning..

I have measured the difference between the case expansion between the main bearing bores and the crank main bearing outside flywheel faces of a bevel drive Ducati to calculate the preload to use on the main bearings for assembly. I could make an educated guess on the Guzzi main and cam bore growth after I measured the centres. The cases will run at around 90 deg C in that area on average more or less.

Ciao   
If you're not living on the edge you're taking up to much room.

Offline Don G

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 1038
  • Location: Smiley, Saskatchewan Canada
Re: Timing gear lash and lubrication.
« Reply #87 on: June 03, 2022, 06:13:36 PM »
Speaking of noisy gear train, I have 3 or 4 early fine pitch timing sets on the shelf, they are out of V700s, they belong where they are, they have to be heard in operation from behind a Polizia fairing for hours on end.......DonG

Offline jacksonracingcomau

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2359
Re: Timing gear lash and lubrication.
« Reply #88 on: June 07, 2022, 02:25:14 AM »
Speaking of noisy gear train, I have 3 or 4 early fine pitch timing sets on the shelf, they are out of V700s, they belong where they are, they have to be heard in operation from behind a Polizia fairing for hours on end.......DonG

Thanks for that Don
Maybe no help to OP but someone might find this with search
I knew about the 3 gearboxes on V700’s but didn’t know about timing gears
So I looked it up
According to parts books, series 1&2 use same crank gear but different cam gear. The series 3 has different number for the set (no longer sell individually)

FWIW mine is series 2, SS1’s, restrictors in heads, straight cut 1st, helical 2,3 &4
Motor (albeit ridiculously low mileage from new) is so quiet it would pass Euro 5 noise test, even straight cut first is barely audible, timing gears not at all.

Are your noisy ones incredibly high mileage and worn to a point ?
Photo might be good, worn helical gears usually obvious

 

Quad Lock - The best GPS / phone mount system for your motorcycles, no damage to your cameras!!
Get a Wildguzzi discount of 10% off your order!
http://quadlock.refr.cc/luapmckeever
Advertise Here