Author Topic: Gone to the Dark Side - Ducati 860 GT  (Read 52776 times)

Offline Tusayan

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Re: Gone to the Dark Side - Ducati 860 GT
« Reply #60 on: May 03, 2019, 08:48:15 AM »
The 860GT is more directly comparable to a Guzzi T-3.  The direct competitor to the V7 Sport or LeMans was the 750SS or 900SS desmo. The SSs were built primarily to ride fast and do it well, in addition to the collector attributes.

The ignition and starter design issues of early Ducati v-twins were fixed in 1977 with the the left side shifting engine that has Bosch ignition.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2019, 08:53:49 AM by Tusayan »

Offline tetarabra

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Re: Gone to the Dark Side - Ducati 860 GT
« Reply #61 on: May 03, 2019, 02:56:47 PM »
Canuck , is your headlight an Aprilia Jod Duplo or a Cev ?  :wink:

Offline Idontwantapickle

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Re: Gone to the Dark Side - Ducati 860 GT
« Reply #62 on: May 03, 2019, 09:32:48 PM »
Canuck,
That is a pretty good looking example you've got, all things considered. If you go through it very carefully it will run well but they are "when" engines, not "if". Ducati made too many compromises to meet the price required at the time and they were still expensive. Last one I found had piston skirt in the transmission gear teeth. Had to let that one go, sadly.
They are fascinating engines and I'm sure you will enjoy tearing it down and rebuilding it. You are going to rebuild it, right?

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Re: Gone to the Dark Side - Ducati 860 GT
« Reply #63 on: May 03, 2019, 10:23:46 PM »
Canuck , is your headlight an Aprilia Jod Duplo or a Cev ?  :wink:

I will check, I think it s a CEV

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Re: Gone to the Dark Side - Ducati 860 GT
« Reply #63 on: May 03, 2019, 10:23:46 PM »

canuck750

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Re: Gone to the Dark Side - Ducati 860 GT
« Reply #64 on: May 03, 2019, 10:27:34 PM »
Canuck,
That is a pretty good looking example you've got, all things considered. If you go through it very carefully it will run well but they are "when" engines, not "if". Ducati made too many compromises to meet the price required at the time and they were still expensive. Last one I found had piston skirt in the transmission gear teeth. Had to let that one go, sadly.
They are fascinating engines and I'm sure you will enjoy tearing it down and rebuilding it. You are going to rebuild it, right?

Hunter

Its going to get stripped down and rebuilt, I will probably send the motor out to a specialist for evaluation and machine work, Setting up a bevel drive is way beyond my capability!

I put in my first order and bought new rubber parts from Bevel Rubber plus a new repro gauge cluster and I bought a decent front fender that has original orange metallic paint with a cream / silver colour stripe for my painter to match, that is the colour scheme I am going to replicate.

Offline Tusayan

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Re: Gone to the Dark Side - Ducati 860 GT
« Reply #65 on: May 03, 2019, 11:03:37 PM »
Its going to get stripped down and rebuilt, I will probably send the motor out to a specialist for evaluation and machine work, Setting up a bevel drive is way beyond my capability!

That sounds to me recipe for cost and disappointment, and based on your other posts this is well inside your capability.  My suggestion would be to look the thing over externally, if all looks OK try to get it running.  The GT engine is non desmo and the heads are simple so you might pull the heads and cylinders (really easy- no head gaskets, no chains, no pushrods) and take a look at the top end first, value guides tend to wear. I wouldn't recommend splitting the cases for no known reason. 

If you were to disassemble the bottom end for some reason, its actually not particularly hard to work on but takes some patience.  The crank and transmission shafts are shimmed in the cases like a lot of other older bikes, nothing too difficult if you keep the case gasket and compare thickness with the new one for reference.  Best to use the same thickness gasket if you can.  There's likely no need to mess with the bevel gear shimming but if you do decide to take a look at that for some reason, it's not rocket science on a square case engine.  I think you'd be amazed at how straightforward the whole thing is in relation to rumors from people who have never actually touched one. The sole really challenging part is the crank and rods assembly: if you need to address the rod bearings the crank is pressed apart, pin, rods and bearings are replaced with a new kit, and then the assembly is pressed together and aligned.  I did that myself but it's arguably better to give the crank assembly and a new rod/bearing kit to somebody who is familiar with built up crank alignment.  It's similar to 1970s Japanese fours or two strokes, but the parts and press fits are bigger and heavier.




« Last Edit: May 03, 2019, 11:18:29 PM by Tusayan »

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Re: Gone to the Dark Side - Ducati 860 GT
« Reply #66 on: May 04, 2019, 05:46:31 AM »
Tusayan, yes, the constant BS about the difficulty of working on Ducati's from people who never worked on one or have limited experience. This even exists for Ducati owners...However, it does require some mechanical understanding , decent tools and hand skills..

Offline huub

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Re: Gone to the Dark Side - Ducati 860 GT
« Reply #67 on: May 04, 2019, 08:27:12 AM »
 
Quote
I think you'd be amazed at how straightforward the whole thing is in relation to rumors from people who have never actually touched one.


i'm doing something wrong , i own of three ducati's ( one bevel 900SS) and three ducati engined cagiva's. i love these bikes for what they are, pretty impractical italian peices of engineering
have been riding them for over 100.000 km, working on them for nearly 20 years,
IMHO working on them is a pain in the ass...
inventing the desmo head was a brilliant marketing move, but a absolutely stupid engineering solution. 
all that extra engineering , extra parts , extra maintenance, just to find out the rest of the world get the same power output with......a set of 10 dollar valve springs.


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Re: Gone to the Dark Side - Ducati 860 GT
« Reply #68 on: May 04, 2019, 08:47:46 AM »
That sounds to me recipe for cost and disappointment, and based on your other posts this is well inside your capability.  My suggestion would be to look the thing over externally, if all looks OK try to get it running.  The GT engine is non desmo and the heads are simple so you might pull the heads and cylinders (really easy- no head gaskets, no chains, no pushrods) and take a look at the top end first, value guides tend to wear. I wouldn't recommend splitting the cases for no known reason. 

If you were to disassemble the bottom end for some reason, its actually not particularly hard to work on but takes some patience.  The crank and transmission shafts are shimmed in the cases like a lot of other older bikes, nothing too difficult if you keep the case gasket and compare thickness with the new one for reference.  Best to use the same thickness gasket if you can.  There's likely no need to mess with the bevel gear shimming but if you do decide to take a look at that for some reason, it's not rocket science on a square case engine.  I think you'd be amazed at how straightforward the whole thing is in relation to rumors from people who have never actually touched one. The sole really challenging part is the crank and rods assembly: if you need to address the rod bearings the crank is pressed apart, pin, rods and bearings are replaced with a new kit, and then the assembly is pressed together and aligned.  I did that myself but it's arguably better to give the crank assembly and a new rod/bearing kit to somebody who is familiar with built up crank alignment.  It's similar to 1970s Japanese fours or two strokes, but the parts and press fits are bigger and heavier.

That is really great to hear. thank you!  I am going to try and fire it up 1st, previous owner claimed it is a runner. My Ducati friend is coming over this afternoon for a look. I have never owned a Ducati or worked on one so this is once again a whole new experience. Other than the rumours of how difficult the engines are to work on the rest of the bike is straight forward Italian 70's parts.

I do like the cam adjuster on the swing arm pivot for tensioning the chain, not sure how practical it was in use?

« Last Edit: December 29, 2019, 05:31:30 PM by canuck750 »

Offline Antietam Classic Cycle

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Re: Gone to the Dark Side - Ducati 860 GT
« Reply #69 on: May 04, 2019, 08:48:26 AM »
That sounds to me recipe for cost and disappointment, and based on your other posts this is well inside your capability.  My suggestion would be to look the thing over externally, if all looks OK try to get it running.  The GT engine is non desmo and the heads are simple so you might pull the heads and cylinders (really easy- no head gaskets, no chains, no pushrods) and take a look at the top end first, value guides tend to wear. I wouldn't recommend splitting the cases for no known reason. 

If you were to disassemble the bottom end for some reason, its actually not particularly hard to work on but takes some patience.  The crank and transmission shafts are shimmed in the cases like a lot of other older bikes, nothing too difficult if you keep the case gasket and compare thickness with the new one for reference.  Best to use the same thickness gasket if you can.  There's likely no need to mess with the bevel gear shimming but if you do decide to take a look at that for some reason, it's not rocket science on a square case engine.  I think you'd be amazed at how straightforward the whole thing is in relation to rumors from people who have never actually touched one. The sole really challenging part is the crank and rods assembly: if you need to address the rod bearings the crank is pressed apart, pin, rods and bearings are replaced with a new kit, and then the assembly is pressed together and aligned.  I did that myself but it's arguably better to give the crank assembly and a new rod/bearing kit to somebody who is familiar with built up crank alignment.  It's similar to 1970s Japanese fours or two strokes, but the parts and press fits are bigger and heavier.

My friend's 860GTE engine has been completely disassembled, shims not kept on shafts, bevel shims loose in baggie, gaskets all thrown away. The crank has already been rebuilt by a company in the UK whose name escape me at the moment (just remembered: Alpha Bearings!). As much as I'm up for a challenge, I'm not sure that I want to tackle reassembling the engine. I really wish my friend would just take it to a specialist, but he seems to have motorcycle ADD and some new project always gets any $$ he's set aside for the Ducati.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2019, 01:22:51 PM by Antietam Classic Cycle »
Charlie

Offline Tusayan

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Re: Gone to the Dark Side - Ducati 860 GT
« Reply #70 on: May 04, 2019, 10:02:19 AM »
Charlie, what you'd end up doing with that engine is assembling the crank and gearbox shafts sequentially in one half of the cases, then installing the other case half and measuring clearance to select shims.  It's time consuming but not hugely difficult, and of course you need the appropriate shims.  As I recall, you simply measure the clearance between the case halves with no gasket and do the arithmetic.

One interesting thing with the crankshaft end float is that the cases expand when the engine is hot, opening up the clearance between the angular contact main bearings.  If the clearance is too much the crankshaft becomes loose radially as well as axially, so there are varying theories about how to shim the crankshaft end float (cold).  One theory to put a slight pinch on the assembly, another to shim to zero clearance.

I think it's important to understand that there was and is a lot of hype with these engines.  They're a bit fiddly but not special racing (e.g. Manx Norton) engines, they were assembled in serial production.  The timing case setup on the round case engines was the biggest issue, but the square case set up is significantly improved - which helps.

« Last Edit: May 04, 2019, 11:17:56 AM by Tusayan »

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Re: Gone to the Dark Side - Ducati 860 GT
« Reply #71 on: May 04, 2019, 10:21:40 AM »
 What Tusayan says ^^^ it's how I build my vintage race Triumphs...Several mock ups to determine any shimming of the crank.I also do this on my street bikes..I'm a hobbyist builder not a pro...I believe Ducatis have a slight preload on the crank mains to allow for heat expansion.....I do this with basic tools ....In fact a belt cam drive Ducati has something in common with old Triumphs, vertical split crankcases, the crank rides on roller bearings and pressure fed plain bearing connecting rods and crankshaft end oiling...

Offline Tusayan

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Re: Gone to the Dark Side - Ducati 860 GT
« Reply #72 on: May 04, 2019, 11:54:52 AM »
I do like the cam adjuster on the swing arm pivot for tensioning the chain, not sure how practical it was in use?

It works OK.  This feature was introduced with the 860GT frame and carried on to some later bikes including the Darmah.  The very last Darmahs had both the eccentric adjuster and the conventional axle adjuster setup, but I think this was because Ducati was using up old stock parts to build the bikes.  In the 1983 time frame Ducati bike production was nearly shut down, they were mainly building Diesel engines for VM. 

The more traditonal bevel Ducati chain adjuster setup with axle plates turned from hexagonal bar stock was BTW designed by Seeley, included in race bike frames done by Seeley under Ducati contract, and then adopted for production. 
« Last Edit: May 04, 2019, 12:19:17 PM by Tusayan »

Offline Idontwantapickle

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Re: Gone to the Dark Side - Ducati 860 GT
« Reply #73 on: May 04, 2019, 01:16:38 PM »
That sounds to me recipe for cost and disappointment, and based on your other posts this is well inside your capability.  My suggestion would be to look the thing over externally, if all looks OK try to get it running.  The GT engine is non desmo and the heads are simple so you might pull the heads and cylinders (really easy- no head gaskets, no chains, no pushrods) and take a look at the top end first, value guides tend to wear. I wouldn't recommend splitting the cases for no known reason. 

If you were to disassemble the bottom end for some reason, its actually not particularly hard to work on but takes some patience.  The crank and transmission shafts are shimmed in the cases like a lot of other older bikes, nothing too difficult if you keep the case gasket and compare thickness with the new one for reference.  Best to use the same thickness gasket if you can.  There's likely no need to mess with the bevel gear shimming but if you do decide to take a look at that for some reason, it's not rocket science on a square case engine.  I think you'd be amazed at how straightforward the whole thing is in relation to rumors from people who have never actually touched one. The sole really challenging part is the crank and rods assembly: if you need to address the rod bearings the crank is pressed apart, pin, rods and bearings are replaced with a new kit, and then the assembly is pressed together and aligned.  I did that myself but it's arguably better to give the crank assembly and a new rod/bearing kit to somebody who is familiar with built up crank alignment.  It's similar to 1970s Japanese fours or two strokes, but the parts and press fits are bigger and heavier.

Canuck, This is good advice! And I second the motion that it is well within your capability to deal with the engine. I did it many times and it only took a few years of therapy to more or less recover.




I do like the cam adjuster on the swing arm pivot for tensioning the chain, not sure how practical it was in use?

It does make it downright easy to adjust the chain with the added bonus that the wheels stay in alignment. Or out of alignment, depends on what day of the week the frame was made!  :evil:

This adjuster lived on for many years, my 750 Paso used an eccentric but those were in the wheel axle instead of the swing arm pivot.

You should just dive right into Duc ownership. Like the Guzzi, the Ducati will make you grin like an idiot the whole time you ride it! I'm not the only one that does that, right?
 :bike-037:
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Re: Gone to the Dark Side - Ducati 860 GT
« Reply #74 on: May 04, 2019, 10:14:14 PM »
My friend Nick came over to look over the 860. he has two 860GTE and a 900GTS, he gave it the thumbs up, apparently the Conti's are not stock, the idiot light bezel is off a Honda and both L and R switch gear are Japanese as is the master cylinder, other than the missing air boxes the rest is stock. Instruments are stock but obviously missing the plastic bezel. Mileage is under 12,000 km, maybe stock judging by the shape of the bike. I need to change the oil , fit some new plugs and try see if it starts, Kicking the starter takes some effort and according to Nick the 'feel' is good. I see why Ducati folks love the motor, the more I look at the L Twin the more it grows on me. Nick concurs with the general consensus being there is a lot of myth behind what is essentially a fairly basic powertrain. The more I look it over the happier I am with the purchase. Other projects await, I need to get the Morini 500 up and running and the Benelli 650 needs to be fired up as well.

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Gone to the Dark Side - Ducati 860 GT
« Reply #75 on: May 05, 2019, 07:33:07 AM »
Quote
apparently the Conti's are not stock,

No, but you *will* like them..  :smiley: :thumb: There may be a better sounding motorcycle than a bevel Duck with Contis, but I haven't heard it.
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Re: Gone to the Dark Side - Ducati 860 GT
« Reply #76 on: May 05, 2019, 08:38:12 AM »
No, but you *will* like them..  :smiley: :thumb: There may be a better sounding motorcycle than a bevel Duck with Contis, but I haven't heard it.

  Belt cam drive two valve Ducatis sound the same  with similar mufflers..And with the X pipe they sound even more intense as RPM's rise, at least in my opinion..

  As an observation, I sold my 750 Ducati V twin around 1990 ,yes Contis...Shortly after I bought a well used Lemans 1.. I bought new down pipes and BuB Conti mufflers...The sound at higher RPM's was mesmerizing ..And I remember the Guzzi seemed to be a bit smoother at upper end of the RPM range...Both the 750 bevel drives I owned picked up vibration above 6000 rpm, not objectionable, but noticeable..My 96 900 Monster feels the same...

Offline Tusayan

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Re: Gone to the Dark Side - Ducati 860 GT
« Reply #77 on: May 05, 2019, 10:53:38 AM »
My friend Nick came over to look over the 860. he has two 860GTE and a 900GTS, he gave it the thumbs up, apparently the Conti's are not stock, the idiot light bezel is off a Honda and both L and R switch gear are Japanese as is the master cylinder, other than the missing air boxes the rest is stock. Instruments are stock but obviously missing the plastic bezel. Mileage is under 12,000 km, maybe stock judging by the shape of the bike. I need to change the oil , fit some new plugs and try see if it starts, Kicking the starter takes some effort and according to Nick the 'feel' is good.

The mods described are all typical.  The original GT switchgear was relatively poor and the original master cylinder was IIRC (like many bikes of the era) the wrong size for a single disk.  These issues were soon after addressed by Ducati on the Darmah, although the poor airbox situation did not get resolved until later so it was very common practice to fit individual filters on all the bikes.

Contis were very often fitted to any of the bikes that came with LaFranconis or Silentiums. SSs in the late 70s came with quiet mufflers on the bikes for regulatory compliance and a set of Contis in the crate for owner installation (also larger carbs).

Ignition reliability is an issue per-1977, but there are aftermarket solutions out there now if needed (I'm thinking about why the bike may have been taken off the road)

If you start the engine bear in mind that it does not have a full flow oil filter, so anything being scraped off the cylinder bores can make its way through the engine.  After you run it, I'd do an oil change or two at short intervals.  Ideally you might have a look at the bores before running it - the cylinder sleeves are uncoated steel, Ducati did not go to Nikasil on the bevel engines until the '84 Mille, by which point the engine also had one piece crankshaft, plain bearing rods and a full flow oil filter.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2019, 11:16:25 AM by Tusayan »

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Re: Gone to the Dark Side - Ducati 860 GT
« Reply #78 on: May 05, 2019, 07:27:54 PM »
If you start the engine bear in mind that it does not have a full flow oil filter, so anything being scraped off the cylinder bores can make its way through the engine.  After you run it, I'd do an oil change or two at short intervals.  Ideally you might have a look at the bores before running it - the cylinder sleeves are uncoated steel, Ducati did not go to Nikasil on the bevel engines until the '84 Mille, by which point the engine also had one piece crankshaft, plain bearing rods and a full flow oil filter.

Good advice the previous owner did not say when it was last on the road, but I am thinking its been off the road for at least a couple years if not more. I bought a bore scope a year ago and this could be a good use for it.

Offline Muzz

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Re: Gone to the Dark Side - Ducati 860 GT
« Reply #79 on: May 06, 2019, 03:39:19 PM »
I don't suppose the previous owner said whether he had put any form of protectant in the cylinders Jim?
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Re: Gone to the Dark Side - Ducati 860 GT
« Reply #80 on: May 06, 2019, 09:49:53 PM »
I don't suppose the previous owner said whether he had put any form of protectant in the cylinders Jim?


No mention, I don't think he took any extra care with it but it was stored inside in a climate controlled building and the previous owner had owned quite a few rare Italian bikes and has a love for them so I am hoping it was treated well. I am hoping to get some time this weekend to fire it up.

Offline Roy gardner

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Re: Gone to the Dark Side - Ducati 860 GT
« Reply #81 on: May 09, 2019, 03:04:14 AM »
That looks imminently restorable, and with those low miles you might get lucky with the engine. It is also too ugly to put a Vincent motor into, wait until the 750 GT arrives, then you will have another engine to section.   :laugh: :laugh:
 
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Re: Gone to the Dark Side - Ducati 860 GT
« Reply #82 on: May 09, 2019, 10:03:23 AM »
It is also too ugly to put a Vincent motor into, wait until the 750 GT arrives, then you will have another engine to section.   :laugh: :laugh:

The Bevel Heads would have me killed!!

I pulled the side covers to find the bike was originally painted the copper / orange, bonus!! This is the colour I am going to paint it.




« Last Edit: December 29, 2019, 05:34:06 PM by canuck750 »

Offline Groover

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Re: Gone to the Dark Side - Ducati 860 GT
« Reply #83 on: May 09, 2019, 10:40:31 AM »
That's a good color, good score being already that color orginally. You can be guilt-free on the restoration paint job!
« Last Edit: May 09, 2019, 10:41:01 AM by Groover »
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Offline swooshdave

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Re: Gone to the Dark Side - Ducati 860 GT
« Reply #84 on: May 09, 2019, 03:51:00 PM »
My dad bought this bike so we'd have something to work on when he came and visited. He's stopped riding so it's for sale. I need to get the carbs set right but otherwise it's a hoot. There are a bunch of original parts in a box (including the seat loop that was cut off). I've only ridden it a couple times but it's memorable. The only people who don't like these bikes have never ridden one.


How it came.


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Some people theorize the bottom ends didn't survive due to the stock ignitions, especially the horrible advance curves that looked like a staircase. The Sachse solves that. https://www.elektronik-sachse.de Or at least they did. Website isn't working.


Waiting for me to tune the carbs.

Also the high costs are due to the sharing of parts with the 900SS (which is a significant number of parts). People aren't putting 860GT prices on the parts, they are putting the 900SS prices on them. With the 860GT at sub-US$10k and the 900SS at US$30k plus. It's like buying Comet parts that are at Rapide prices.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2019, 05:32:23 PM by swooshdave »
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Re: Gone to the Dark Side - Ducati 860 GT
« Reply #85 on: May 09, 2019, 05:04:38 PM »
 Nice bike above... :thumb:

  When "they" say bevel drive Ducati twins have  lower end problems... do the mean like worn big end ? Or just a lot of noise? Or of you ignore the noise and a rod causes unscheduled disassembly ?

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Re: Gone to the Dark Side - Ducati 860 GT
« Reply #86 on: May 09, 2019, 10:48:17 PM »
Canuck , is your headlight an Aprilia Jod Duplo or a Cev ?  :wink:

Jod Duplo

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Re: Gone to the Dark Side - Ducati 860 GT
« Reply #87 on: May 09, 2019, 10:59:05 PM »
When I get a bike like this tired 860 GT I like to go through it from end to end to catalogue what it will need. I knocked out the wheel bearings and put the wheel wheel in my Vapor Honing Technologies 'Weekend Warrior' blast cabinet. After knocking the corrosion off the steel rims, steel pokes and alloy hubs they look fine, just need replating.



before cleaning



and after, coated with ACF 50 to stop corrosion until I get around to restoring this bike and a shot of paint on the rotor centre



Getting a Vapor blast cabinet was probably the best tool I have ever bought.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2019, 05:36:57 PM by canuck750 »

Offline Glawster

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Re: Gone to the Dark Side - Ducati 860 GT
« Reply #88 on: May 10, 2019, 02:48:44 AM »
Jod Duplo

Well if you're not a stickler for originality take out the Jod Duplo, put in a Wipac Quadoptic (£25 in UK) and sell the Jod Duplo to a rivet counting bevel restorer.  That'll put $1000 or more in your pocket!
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Re: Gone to the Dark Side - Ducati 860 GT
« Reply #89 on: May 10, 2019, 10:10:56 AM »
Well if you're not a stickler for originality take out the Jod Duplo, put in a Wipac Quadoptic (£25 in UK) and sell the Jod Duplo to a rivet counting bevel restorer.  That'll put $1000 or more in your pocket!

$1K for a headlight! bloody ridiculous :sad:

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