Gone to the Dark Side - Ducati 860 GT

[swooshdave]

Well if you're not a stickler for originality take out the Jod Duplo, put in a Wipac Quadoptic (£25 in UK) and sell the Jod Duplo to a rivet counting bevel restorer.  That'll put $1000 or more in your pocket!

Unfortunately he is a stickler for originality, have you never seen one of his build threads? 

[Old Jock]

I bought a tragedy of a 900GTS in 2013 and rebuilt it completely as below.  The GT belongs to a friend of mine and we were on a tour of Scotland.
The 864 Bevel engine in any form really is a wonderful creation.  Plenty of power from any revs, completely smooth and sounds glorious.
The downside is that the availability of parts is nothing like as easy as a Guzzi, and the prices are eye watering.  Mdina Italia in UK is a good source of spares, and I found Ian Gowanloch in Australia to be a goldmine of rare parts.
I did blog the rebuild here, but since the demise of photobucket most of the photos have been deleted.
http://www.ducati-upnorth.com/forum/showthread.php?19560-Another-900-GTS-story.-The-Black-Pig

DSC_1847 by Derek0812, on Flickr

Inveraray??

[Glawster]

Inveraray??

Yes, Inverary Jock.  We had a great ride down to Campbeltown in perfect weather.

[canuck750]

Any idea what 'normal' compression should be? I kicked it over dry and got around 150 psi per cylinder, good, bad, in between?

[swooshdave]

Any idea what 'normal' compression should be? I kicked it over dry and got around 150 psi per cylinder, good, bad, in between?

Sounds good to me. Start it up!

[canuck750]

Sounds good to me. Start it up!

Yep, just going to drain the crankcase and fill with fresh oil, install a battery and give it a kick.

Hopefully Saturday morning I can let the neighbours share in the sound of a Ducati

[tetarabra]

Jod Duplo

Good point as these headlights are ridiculously expensive ( also fitted on 750 sport and supersport )

By the way , don't break it 

[Roy gardner]

Hey, I'm going to stop taking the pi** for a minute and offer something constructive. As I mentioned earlier, I have seen Ducati gear shafts brinelled & pitted from the rollers plucking bits out. I have long contemplated the possibility of replacing the rollers with hard bronze floating bushes. It's a fix we used in car gearboxes where the first motion shaft turned on the main shaft. I did to my '39 Chev & several of Mr Issogonis' Morris/Austin Mini Minor & 1100 motors. 

We turned a bit of aluminium bronze with 1/2 a thou clearance inside & outside with a long  helix oil groove inside & outside. If you did that before the shafts get pitted and use multigrade oil you might save its life.   

[swooshdave]

Yep, just going to drain the crankcase and fill with fresh oil, install a battery and give it a kick.

Hopefully Saturday morning I can let the neighbours share in the sound of a Ducati

Well? :-)

[Muzz]

Well? :-)

 

Don't keep us in suspenders!

[canuck750]

I got in a couple hours over the weekend to prep the Ducati before I try and start it, bought a new Odyssey battery and drained the sludge out of the crankcase, almost molasses, this bike has sat for longer than two years in my opinion!  Ran some oil through, kicked it over with no fuel and drained and refilled the sump. I pulled the chain, the underside of the chain guard was about 1/8" thick crud so I pulled the engine sprocket cover off and it was clogged with slime and grit. Cleaned that all out and reinstalled a cleaned chain.

The left hand gear change linkage is a real mash up, cleaned up the sprokect and shift mechanism

So I go to think if the sump was full of gooey oil what's the inside of the crabs like?? 

Well not much better than the sump, old stale congealed gas, plugged jets etc.. Stripped and cleaned the carbs, need to fit a gasket / seal set in the carbs. I decided I may as well pull the rocker covers off and check the valve lash, will finish that tomorrow and hopefully get through the carbs mid week.

I gave the motor a going over with soda blast out in the lane, used up about a gallon's worth to clean the crud of the engine, not as nice as vapour blasting but it's good for now.

[Rough Edge racing]

Hey, I'm going to stop taking the pi** for a minute and offer something constructive. As I mentioned earlier, I have seen Ducati gear shafts brinelled & pitted from the rollers plucking bits out. I have long contemplated the possibility of replacing the rollers with hard bronze floating bushes. It's a fix we used in car gearboxes where the first motion shaft turned on the main shaft. I did to my '39 Chev & several of Mr Issogonis' Morris/Austin Mini Minor & 1100 motors. 

We turned a bit of aluminium bronze with 1/2 a thou clearance inside & outside with a long  helix oil groove inside & outside. If you did that before the shafts get pitted and use multigrade oil you might save its life.   

 I'm not sure what you mean by "first motion shaft" but Chevy used the same basic three speed transmission from the late 1930's until 1964..In 1955 the counter shaft  (layshaft) bearings were changed from bushings to needle rollers...Triumph motorcycle did the same on their gear boxes as power increased.
 I don't know if the slight running clearance of a bushing will have an effect on the bevel drive..

[Roy gardner]

I'm not sure what you mean by "first motion shaft" but Chevy used the same basic three speed transmission from the late 1930's until 1964..In 1955 the counter shaft  (layshaft) bearings were changed from bushings to needle rollers...Triumph motorcycle did the same on their gear boxes as power increased.
 I don't know if the slight running clearance of a bushing will have an effect on the bevel drive..

First motion shaft = British terminology for the first shaft into the box, the one with the clutch splines driving it. 
I think you will work out when you go into the engine, that the gear shafts I am referring to in the Ducati, have no connection to he bevel drive off the crank. They are the gear box shafts which have the gears rotating on them.   

[canuck750]

First motion shaft = British terminology for the first shaft into the box, the one with the clutch splines driving it. 
I think you will work out when you go into the engine, that the gear shafts I am referring to in the Ducati, have no connection to he bevel drive off the crank. They are the gear box shafts which have the gears rotating on them.   

I assume you are talking about the spur gear shafts?

After cleaning up the underside of the sump I found the lead sealed wire is still intact

I am missing one carburetor accelerator pump jet holder and jet, on order, another delay to firing it up, how does stuff like this go missing off old bikes??

So I keep cleaning and checking, and building an inventory of what's to be replaced. Exhaust cleaned up pretty good, will get the headers and cross over re-plated, looking for stock LaFranconi mufflers.

[swooshdave]

Is the header SS?

[Lannis]

It's surprising how many times I see, on nicely prepared bikes, safety wiring done so as to pull the wired bolt in the direction of UNfastening ... ?    Or is this not as much of an issue as I think?    I know that at one time, race scrutineers wouldn't pass such an installation ...

Lannis

[canuck750]

Is the header SS?

I don't think so, it had a fair amount of surface rust and the cross over was rusted tight to one of the headers, oxy/acet heat to break it free.

Will a magnet stick to stainless steel? With all the rust on the joints I just assumed they were not stainless but maybe they are??

[larrys]

It's surprising how many times I see, on nicely prepared bikes, safety wiring done so as to pull the wired bolt in the direction of UNfastening ... ?    Or is this not as much of an issue as I think?    I know that at one time, race scrutineers wouldn't pass such an installation ...
Lannis

This^^^. I learned lock wiring on airplane gun systems. That wouldn't have passed my sergeant's inspection, either. I think the intent for the wiring in that spot is the seal, not so much to keep the screws from backing out...
Larry

[RinkRat II]

Will a magnet stick to stainless steel?

    Very broadly speaking 300 series is not magnetic but 400 series is. It all depends on the specific manufacturer's recipe for that application. How much ferrite, chromium, etc.

        Paul B

[Tusayan]

Yes, the lead seal is an old world warranty protection kind of thing... Nowadays nobody would assume that a new bike buyer might split the cases and break something during a one year warranty period, but with Ducatis, racing, etc in the 1970s and before the mindset was different.

[swooshdave]

Yes, the lead seal is an old world warranty protection kind of thing... Nowadays nobody would assume that a new bike buyer might split the cases and break something during a one year warranty period, but with Ducatis, racing, etc in the 1970s and before the mindset was different.

So it's not really safety wire but warranty wire. Doesn't matter which way it's twisted. Nor would you safety wire those bolts anyways.

[Groover]

They used to do the same thing in Italy with the "good" Salami back in the day. I think they still do. The little lead seals are called "Piombino" (Little leads).

http://bbcc.ibc.regione.emilia-romagna.it/pater/loadcard.do?id_card=80809




Would you be able to get a macro shot of what the printing is on the lead seal on the Ducati? Curious... 
Edit: Looks like nothing once enlarging the photos.

[canuck750]

Is the header SS?

I think you where right on the Stainless Steel observation, a magnet sticks to the Ducati headers but it also sticks to the stainless steel headers on my Eldorado. I got out a tube of metal polish and they shined up pretty quick with a lot of black residue on the polishing rag so I assume they are stainless.


The electrical is a rats nest, original CEV switches are long gone, Nippon Denso on the left (same as Suzuki GT750, Laverda) and a Honda throttle / switch on the right. Original wires cut off and poorly wrapped up under the centre frame rail.



I removed the left switch, cut back all the electrical except the ignition circuit, lots of clean up needed inside the headlight bucket, whenever I see the crappy blue end crimp connectors I just cringe! Will rebuild all the electrical harness components, eventually.



Bevel Rubber sent new foot peg rubbers, couldn't resist giving the foot rests a shot of paint and popping the new rubber on

And Bevel Rubber also sent a new reproduction dash

Reflector holders cleaned up with just a dusting of vapour blast, light oxidation just left them dull and discolored

[Muzz]

I don't think so, it had a fair amount of surface rust and the cross over was rusted tight to one of the headers, oxy/acet heat to break it free.



Will a magnet stick to stainless steel? With all the rust on the joints I just assumed they were not stainless but maybe they are??

Those clamps Jim can come in three types, full stainless, stainless band with steel bolt and "nut", or just the whole lot done in zinc chromate plated steel.

When I first bought the Breva new it had the full stainless type, most expensive but if you want it to pull up tight you MUST put the nickel antiseize on it.  Luigi didn't and the crossover used to leak.  I replaced them with the type you have, but it is vital to smother the threads with something like Res-Q-Steel.  You can exert far higher clamping forces with this type.  The only time I will use the full stainless is in marine applications.

[canuck750]

Those clamps Jim can come in three types, full stainless, stainless band with steel bolt and "nut", or just the whole lot done in zinc chromate plated steel.

When I first bought the Breva new it had the full stainless type, most expensive but if you want it to pull up tight you MUST put the nickel antiseize on it.  Luigi didn't and the crossover used to leak.  I replaced them with the type you have, but it is vital to smother the threads with something like Res-Q-Steel.  You can exert far higher clamping forces with this type.  The only time I will use the full stainless is in marine applications.

Thanks Muzz, good advice.


Groover: no markings on the lead blob sealing the crankcase wires.

Cheers

Jim

[huub]

the whole bike is in a pretty amazing condition,
these engines were known to eat their bigends for lunch , to find one with the factory seal still on the engine block is absolutely amazing.
nice find...

[swooshdave]

Once I opened the headlight shell and gasped in horror I ripped all the wiring out and started from scratch.

[canuck750]

My friend Harold came over today tp help me attempt to fire up the Ducati. I robbed a pump jet out of the Laverda, hooked up a battery, flushed out the gas tank and cleaned the petcocks. I wish I could say it started on the first kick but it didn't, after many kicks, a couple kick backs and one bruised shin when my right foot slid off the Kickstarter and banged into the foot peg (awkward kick starter design) it caught and fired up.

This thing is LOUD.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eO7f7VKtc5I&feature=youtu.be

Kill switch doesn't work, need to rig something up temporarily until I get the original CEV switches and control perches *found used ones on Ebay)

Petcocks leaked fuel, fuel lines leaked, oil filter housing leaked, the usual first start adventures, replaced the fuel line, fuel line clamps, res set the oil filter seal, petcocks don't leak but they don't fully shut off either.

Rebuilt the leaking Brembo caliper, installed new brake hoses (spare rubber hoses I had made for a LeMans fit) installed a Brembo master cylinder
 and gutted out most of the electrical.

Cleaned and repacked the steering bearings

Pulled the choke splitter apart, it was jambed solid with crud

Idle is still high, after the second start the front cylinder had died, traced to a loosed high tension lead.

I am removing and cleaning, checking, fixing just about everything that cane be unbolted, my plan is to go through all the systems and get everything working as it should. Buchannan's is making me a set of new stainless steel spokes and I will get the rims replated. I found a pair of used air boxes on Ebay and Bevel Heaven had the rubber boots in stock. Next to tackle the electrical.

[Idontwantapickle]

 
Awesome!

[Rough Edge racing]

So I keep cleaning and checking, and building an inventory of what's to be replaced. Exhaust cleaned up pretty good, will get the headers and cross over re-plated, looking for stock LaFranconi mufflers.

  A Ducati without loud mufflers is a crime...   Besides all you'll hear is the engine mechanical clatter...